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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007096 times)
edgar
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February 14, 2014, 06:42:24 PM
 #29981

Is it completely impossible to consider a scenario in which the Neptune at the time of release is 6 (or more) Th?

Yes!!! For many reasons.

not completely impossible but entirely improbable.

matthew - are you getting stupider by the hour?

your spelling, grammar & structure are falling apart post by post.

let me leave you all to it, April 1st indeed.....
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February 14, 2014, 06:42:50 PM
 #29982


I bought five Neptunes batch 1a and am long on them all.  Although at these bitcoin prices a refund is very tempting to lock in some profit.  I'm not kissing KNC's arse and am a bit concerned myself, but this thread is being hijacked.  That's why Orama isn't posting for the same reason the trolls are now tag-teaming on me LoL.  KNC had already shown that they have the hashrate in their datacentre to provide to all batch 1a customers.  Until they ship the Neptunes.  They won't give us the hashrate before April 1st at the very earliest, but if they give it us after mid May then all you guys were right in your rants.  While I should have refunded all five at a profit.  KNC won't bum-f*ck its customers unless their forced into a sitution where they have too.  They've already shown they are trying to build support from the community and I'm still confident for some pleasant surprises myself.

I am not sure that they have the hash rate yet, but i think that they would have to provide for batch 1 customers on March15-April15. May would be too late to break even in $$. I assume that we will know more in a couple of weeks (or even faster if Neptune batch 2.5 would have difficulty selling). Losing money on transaction that suppose to make money (bitcoin mining) would mean that they will have no customers going forward-and this is a fact. I don't want to refund because nobody knows where bitcoin will be in 2weeks. No point of getting a refund, buying bitcoin and see it dipping to $400, which is entirely possible if MtGotcha crocks.
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February 14, 2014, 06:47:11 PM
 #29983


I bought five Neptunes batch 1a and am long on them all.  Although at these bitcoin prices a refund is very tempting to lock in some profit.  I'm not kissing KNC's arse and am a bit concerned myself, but this thread is being hijacked.  That's why Orama isn't posting for the same reason the trolls are now tag-teaming on me LoL.  KNC had already shown that they have the hashrate in their datacentre to provide to all batch 1a customers.  Until they ship the Neptunes.  They won't give us the hashrate before April 1st at the very earliest, but if they give it us after mid May then all you guys were right in your rants.  While I should have refunded all five at a profit.  KNC won't bum-f*ck its customers unless their forced into a sitution where they have too.  They've already shown they are trying to build support from the community and I'm still confident for some pleasant surprises myself.

I am not sure that they have the hash rate yet, but i think that they would have to provide for batch 1 customers on March15-April15. May would be too late to break even in $$. I assume that we will know more in a couple of weeks (or even faster if Neptune batch 2.5 would have difficulty selling). Losing money on transaction that suppose to make money (bitcoin mining) would mean that they will have no customers going forward-and this is a fact. I don't want to refund because nobody knows where bitcoin will be in 2weeks. No point of getting a refund, buying bitcoin and see it dipping to $400, which is entirely possible if MtGotcha crocks.

IMO before plan B was announced I always thought that KNC would compensate any late delivery with extra hashrate.  Just like the final Jupiter speed was boosted by nearly 100% from their initial announcement.

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February 14, 2014, 06:47:49 PM
 #29984

No, I don't remember you particularly saying that Plan B was actually Plan A. It has been shouted here, and I wouldn't even argue that. In fact, I think KnC from inception expected to go down this path at some point or another.

And that's fine too, I realize some don't have the attention span to take in arguments developed in depth and need short. punchy. points. for quick comprehension.
Uh huh. I'm not going to bother because your post is all mixed up. You say I'm ranting and raving, then you agree with what I say, then you seem to be suggesting I said something I didn't say, then you use the words "fools" a lot and then you say you are not advocating for knc, then you demand to know what FINAL specs will be when no one knows what that will be for months. It would take a week to respond to all that mixed up confused crap.

Maybe clarify your own thoughts first before you start challenging people. And my mom still wants her underwear back from you. At least stop wearing it to work you sick puppy, people are beginning to talk

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February 14, 2014, 06:52:28 PM
 #29985


Is it completely impossible to consider a scenario in which the Neptune at the time of release is 6 (or more) Th? Is it completely impossible to consider that IF each Neptune was indeed 6Th, that in order to provide a possible Plan B to all existing preorders, ~22Ph must be rolled out in their datacenter? Is it completely impossible to consider that IF they had to roll out a 22Ph safety net, they realized they simply didn't have the Jupiter production capacity to both provide said backup plan AND sell Jupiters and new modules?
(By the way, a 6Th machine, released at a 15 billion difficulty with 1 billion difficulty jumps (that's ~7Ph added to network) on an EVERY WEEK basis, that machine will mine 13 BTC in 3 months)


Unknown re Th/machine, but clearly, only 3th/s will be compensated through plan B-they already indicated this. The major sticking point is-when and for how long?
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February 14, 2014, 06:56:38 PM
 #29986

Looking at the photo, confrontation on sidewalk in Japan, the MtGox owner doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who will do seppuku.



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February 14, 2014, 06:57:58 PM
 #29987

Please, do elaborate, Syke. I'll admit, I don't know how it is impossible. I'm assuming you're talking about the constraints of design and expected performance improvements with a node size shrink?

Yes, that's the biggest issue. The shrink from 28nm to 20nm will give roughly a 25% improvement. If they tried to do 6 TH/s, it will be because they are using many more chips, and it would be expensive, and the power draw would be in the 5,000+ watt range. That's simply not going to work.

Buy & Hold
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February 14, 2014, 06:59:15 PM
 #29988

Looking at the photo, confrontation on sidewalk in Japan, the MtGox owner doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who will do seppuku.
He's too busy playing Minecraft at work to think of such things.
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February 14, 2014, 06:59:42 PM
 #29989

Uh huh. I'm not going to bother because your post is all mixed up. You say I'm ranting and raving, then you agree with what I say, then you seem to be suggesting I said something I didn't say, then you use the words "fools" a lot and then you say you are not advocating for knc, then you demand to know what FINAL specs will be when no one knows what that will be for months. It would take a week to respond to all that mixed up confused crap.

Maybe clarify your own thoughts first before you start challenging people. And my mom still wants her underwear back from you. At least stop wearing it to work you sick puppy, people are beginning to talk

Confused thoughts? Haha ok;

-Without knowing what the FINAL specs are of Neptune (speed, efficiency, release date, compensatory cloudhashing details), how could one begin to say the only reason that KnC withheld Jupiters, was to fulfill their greedy desires? My example still stands

-if Neptune IS 6Th, they need to supply ~22Ph worth of safety net ..do you KNOW that they have the capacity to produce that AND still sell Jupiters? I admit it doesn't change they broke this all important Net Protection agreement.

We won't know final specs for months? Exactly my point, avenger. Thank you. So until then, we can only assume things then, yea?

I used "fools" twice in the wordy jaunt. Was twice too much? lol
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February 14, 2014, 07:06:32 PM
 #29990

-Without knowing what the FINAL specs are of Neptune (speed, efficiency, release date, compensatory cloudhashing details), how could one begin to say the only reason that KnC withheld Jupiters, was to fulfill their greedy desires? My example still stands
Quote
“Plan B is simple,” Sam Cole, one of KnCMiner’s co-founders, told CoinDesk: “If we face a delay or any type, we will give each person a choice.”

This is a plan that the company is putting in place for paying customers of its latest model, the 3TH/s Neptune miner. The options are as follows:

    1. Continue to wait.

    2. Take a USD refund.

    3. Convert to 3TH of hosting performance for a period (still to be worked out, but is likely to be around 6 months).
And the latest:
4. Take refund in BTC - as soon as we've mined it with the machines built with your money



-if Neptune IS 6Th, they need to supply ~22Ph worth of safety net
Won't be, see above

I used "fools" twice in the wordy jaunt. Was twice too much? lol
Like I said, tl/dr. I just saw the word fool a few times and figured it was another knowitall post from someone who knewnothing.


P.S. Someone get WillMilk4Coin a hooker too. That picture of a woman he drew on his right hand isn't going to do it for him today.

Edit: Good news. matthewh3's aunt is doing a special offer today  Grin

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WillMilk4Coin
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February 14, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
 #29991

Please, do elaborate, Syke. I'll admit, I don't know how it is impossible. I'm assuming you're talking about the constraints of design and expected performance improvements with a node size shrink?

Yes, that's the biggest issue. The shrink from 28nm to 20nm will give roughly a 25% improvement. If they tried to do 6 TH/s, it will be because they are using many more chips, and it would be expensive, and the power draw would be in the 5,000+ watt range. That's simply not going to work.

Thanks, Syke. I appreciate the explanation. However, if KnC can achieve even .75W/Gh, at 6Th, that is sub 5000 watts. Is .75W/Gh out of the realm of plausibility? I'm wondering, since it is widely know, that as BTC mining returns are inevitably becoming increasingly narrow, electrical efficiency takes a larger precedence. If Jupiter was a race to get the largest horse out of the gates the soonest, and Neptune is to get the most efficient horse possible, they may take more time refining Neptune than they did Jupiter. More board revisions; better efficiency. Could hoping for under .75W/Gh be a pipe dream?
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February 14, 2014, 07:17:05 PM
 #29992

batch 1a customers.  Until they ship the Neptunes.  They won't give us the hashrate before April 1st at the very earliest, but if they give it us after mid May then all you guys were right in your rants.  While I

Why do you keep repeating April 1st? They, KNCMiner, said verbatim the 'drop dead date' for giving customers access to datacenter hashes would be if they don't make the Q2 timeframe. Not Q1.

And then there's vesper. Haha Wow, thanks for your input. Not only did you take the time to say 3 times how I'm clearly clueless about anything, you failed to give any constructive reasoning why. Well done.

I suggested you re-read the entire thread. I've been lurking since day 1 and keeping notes. Not just on KNC, but most of the claimed OEM's. Call it a hobby. Avenger, myself, a few others, all individually started noticing emerging patterns from KNC, and we all pretty much called the ball, and come to find out we were all pretty much on target. I don't need to provide any further foundation for what I'm saying. Heck, go back to November timeframe and read on, you'll see what we said was true. Or don't, it's not that big a deal for 1 person to be challenging proven individuals.

When did we ever start defining affordability in the context of a potential for profit? ..lol I could redefine all kinds of words to better suit my arguments too.

Did you miss the part of ROI? Sure they offer hash capability for a dollar amount. If that's your basis for saying they're not leaving you without options, then you have pretty low standards.

-Where are my FINAL specs on Neptune hash speed? I can assume it is 3Th -but didn't Jupiter start at 250Gh?

Their business model for sales is based on 3TH. That should be anyone's primary number for calculating return. Based on pages of math done throughout this thread, it's likely that you will be able to get 4.5 out of it without terrible effort, possibly 5.5 if you have the capability. The primary limitation is power.

-Where are my FINAL details in regards to the cloudhashing option? Is it a complete forfeiture of my Neptune? Will the relative speed of cloudhashing always reflect updated Neptune specs? When exactly does the compensatory cloudhashing for Batch 1a begin?

KNC stipulated if it came to cloudhashing, it would be if they missed Q2 shipping, which means after Q2. It will then begin in order of batches. Did you guys miss the newsletter and emails?

Is it completely impossible to consider a scenario in which the Neptune at the time of release is 6 (or more) Th?

Capable? Possibly. Probable? Not likely. Going off of how the Jupiters were engineered and deployed, they put a lot of squeeze room into the design mainly in case of failure of the design. They discussed this last summer. They under-rated on purpose, it was both a sales tactic and a safety net for engineering. This is why the November units couldn't overclock as much, because they came pre-squeezed. For Neptunes, they stated they would pre-squeeze them as well, up to nominal power limits WRT US outlets, which is where you get your 3TH figure.

Again, and I know this sounds as if you've heard it before.. this all comes from newsletters, email, and information throughout the thread...

Is it completely impossible to consider that IF each Neptune was indeed 6Th, that in order to provide a possible Plan B to all existing preorders, ~22Ph must be rolled out in their datacenter?

They stipulated regardless of capability, each order would only be allotted the sales-figure-based hashrate of 3TH.

Is it completely impossible to consider that IF they had to roll out a 22Ph safety net, they realized they simply didn't have the Jupiter production capacity to both provide said backup plan AND sell Jupiters and new modules?

They have more than enough production capacity because they rent production capacity based on demand. They simply diverted it for their own needs instead of allowing customers to purchase it. As is their right.

(By the way, a 6Th machine, released at a 15 billion difficulty with 1 billion difficulty jumps (that's ~7Ph added to network) on an EVERY WEEK basis, that machine will mine 13 BTC in 3 months)

...Which proves what we were saying earlier, it won't earn its cost back without tremendous luck from the luck fairy, because few households can support a single 6TH unit, and it's not likely their first-time-run 20nm architecture will achieve those speeds anyhow. Imagine a 4TH machine delivered in May.

Would either of you, or the handful of the other loud bitching mouths here, even be able to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY of scenarios that exist outside of your own narrow views?

Other situations do in fact exist, and it's not narrowminded if you think about it. They offered a product, people paid for it, they delivered. With exception to the modules (which, by law, they should provide), they're not bound to provide any other products or services. The NPS wasn't exactly part of their by-laws, it was just a statement of idealism. I hold them more accountable for the modules which everyone in 2013 is entitled to, as well as yourself--the Neptune batches 1 and 2 were sold with "Modular upgradability" as a bullet point.

Part of the reason they've been running their own datacenter for awhile now (since November), is likely due to their foreseeing the possibilities of everything which has since occured, including 1/3rd of their cash capital being refunded to customers. They needed something to return when they had to cut off refunds. They needed 66% of the cash for the product and their venture. This is why their 3rd Neptune batch didn't have refunds.

I'm not as narrowminded as you might  believe, and if you knew me and knew how often my estimations and predictions were within 1 deviation of accuracy, you might be more understanding as to why I'm suggesting you keep up with the thread and other news outlets. Most of your postulations or thoughts have all been answered.. by KNC for the most part, without our "views".

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February 14, 2014, 07:19:30 PM
 #29993

-Without knowing what the FINAL specs are of Neptune (speed, efficiency, release date, compensatory cloudhashing details), how could one begin to say the only reason that KnC withheld Jupiters, was to fulfill their greedy desires? My example still stands
..
And the latest:
4. Take refund in BTC - as soon as we've mined it with the machines built with your money
...
Won't be, see above
..
Like I said, tl/dr. I just saw the word fool a few times and figured it was another knowitall post from someone who knewnothing.
P.S. Someone get WillMilk4Coin a hooker too. That picture of a woman he drew on his right hand isn't going to do it for him today.

Bulleted for the attention deficient:

-Yea, I suppose KnC has never revised their projected specs before have they?
-It can't be 6Th ..........because they said 3Th would be given in compensation ........before we know final specs of a Neptune. Reaching Avenger.
-Ok ..so you saw fool a few times and made up more assumptions. What else is new?
-Haha I can get my own hookers. Thanks though. Although, the drawing I made this year is especially seductive.
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February 14, 2014, 07:22:25 PM
 #29994

Also, I mentioned Orama could be on vacation because he hasn't logged into his account here in over a week, or elsewhere.

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February 14, 2014, 07:25:04 PM
 #29995

batch 1a customers.  Until they ship the Neptunes.  They won't give us the hashrate before April 1st at the very earliest, but if they give it us after mid May then all you guys were right in your rants.  While I

Why do you keep repeating April 1st? They, KNCMiner, said verbatim the 'drop dead date' for giving customers access to datacenter hashes would be if they don't make the Q2 timeframe. Not Q1.

And then there's vesper. Haha Wow, thanks for your input. Not only did you take the time to say 3 times how I'm clearly clueless about anything, you failed to give any constructive reasoning why. Well done.

I suggested you re-read the entire thread. I've been lurking since day 1 and keeping notes. Not just on KNC, but most of the claimed OEM's. Call it a hobby. Avenger, myself, a few others, all individually started noticing emerging patterns from KNC, and we all pretty much called the ball, and come to find out we were all pretty much on target. I don't need to provide any further foundation for what I'm saying. Heck, go back to November timeframe and read on, you'll see what we said was true. Or don't, it's not that big a deal for 1 person to be challenging proven individuals.

When did we ever start defining affordability in the context of a potential for profit? ..lol I could redefine all kinds of words to better suit my arguments too.

Did you miss the part of ROI? Sure they offer hash capability for a dollar amount. If that's your basis for saying they're not leaving you without options, then you have pretty low standards.

-Where are my FINAL specs on Neptune hash speed? I can assume it is 3Th -but didn't Jupiter start at 250Gh?

Their business model for sales is based on 3TH. That should be anyone's primary number for calculating return. Based on pages of math done throughout this thread, it's likely that you will be able to get 4.5 out of it without terrible effort, possibly 5.5 if you have the capability. The primary limitation is power.

-Where are my FINAL details in regards to the cloudhashing option? Is it a complete forfeiture of my Neptune? Will the relative speed of cloudhashing always reflect updated Neptune specs? When exactly does the compensatory cloudhashing for Batch 1a begin?

KNC stipulated if it came to cloudhashing, it would be if they missed Q2 shipping, which means after Q2. It will then begin in order of batches. Did you guys miss the newsletter and emails?

Is it completely impossible to consider a scenario in which the Neptune at the time of release is 6 (or more) Th?

Capable? Possibly. Probable? Not likely. Going off of how the Jupiters were engineered and deployed, they put a lot of squeeze room into the design mainly in case of failure of the design. They discussed this last summer. They under-rated on purpose, it was both a sales tactic and a safety net for engineering. This is why the November units couldn't overclock as much, because they came pre-squeezed. For Neptunes, they stated they would pre-squeeze them as well, up to nominal power limits WRT US outlets, which is where you get your 3TH figure.

Again, and I know this sounds as if you've heard it before.. this all comes from newsletters, email, and information throughout the thread...

Is it completely impossible to consider that IF each Neptune was indeed 6Th, that in order to provide a possible Plan B to all existing preorders, ~22Ph must be rolled out in their datacenter?

They stipulated regardless of capability, each order would only be allotted the sales-figure-based hashrate of 3TH.

Is it completely impossible to consider that IF they had to roll out a 22Ph safety net, they realized they simply didn't have the Jupiter production capacity to both provide said backup plan AND sell Jupiters and new modules?

They have more than enough production capacity because they rent production capacity based on demand. They simply diverted it for their own needs instead of allowing customers to purchase it. As is their right.

(By the way, a 6Th machine, released at a 15 billion difficulty with 1 billion difficulty jumps (that's ~7Ph added to network) on an EVERY WEEK basis, that machine will mine 13 BTC in 3 months)

...Which proves what we were saying earlier, it won't earn its cost back without tremendous luck from the luck fairy, because few households can support a single 6TH unit, and it's not likely their first-time-run 20nm architecture will achieve those speeds anyhow. Imagine a 4TH machine delivered in May.

Would either of you, or the handful of the other loud bitching mouths here, even be able to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY of scenarios that exist outside of your own narrow views?

Other situations do in fact exist, and it's not narrowminded if you think about it. They offered a product, people paid for it, they delivered. With exception to the modules (which, by law, they should provide), they're not bound to provide any other products or services. The NPS wasn't exactly part of their by-laws, it was just a statement of idealism. I hold them more accountable for the modules which everyone in 2013 is entitled to, as well as yourself--the Neptune batches 1 and 2 were sold with "Modular upgradability" as a bullet point.

Part of the reason they've been running their own datacenter for awhile now (since November), is likely due to their foreseeing the possibilities of everything which has since occured, including 1/3rd of their cash capital being refunded to customers. They needed something to return when they had to cut off refunds. They needed 66% of the cash for the product and their venture. This is why their 3rd Neptune batch didn't have refunds.

I'm not as narrowminded as you might  believe, and if you knew me and knew how often my estimations and predictions were within 1 deviation of accuracy, you might be more understanding as to why I'm suggesting you keep up with the thread and other news outlets. Most of your postulations or thoughts have all been answered.. by KNC for the most part, without our "views".


FFS how much energy did you put into that post.  Can I ask you this why do you spend most of your free time and energy to try and tarnish the KNC name nearly two months before they're due to ship.  KNC's actions will prove them yet again or maybe bury them.  Although your crusade and all that time spent will be forgotten.  Here you've made your point, then if you're correct you  can quote it in July and gloat.  IMHO KNC have so far proved them selfs to be the best option of a bad bunch.  That's why I put more than $50k on them.

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February 14, 2014, 07:32:43 PM
 #29996

After reading KNC's latest update I'm getting more and more of a "scammy vibe" from them. I've really held out hope that KNC will be a legit ASIC manufacturer but it seems more and more like they are succumbing to greed like Avalon did after their initial success.

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All,
As we are getting closer to the launch date of Neptune. We are able to release more of the products as we are still on track. So today there are now 1000 more products in the shop. This is the second half batch two and will ship alongside the first half.
This batch will also be covered by our online hashing (Plan B), if we are late we will simply give you a choice of converting to our online hosted hashing of 3TH from our facilities if you wish to
Thanks
KnCMiner Team

First they refer to the launch date which they have so far refused to share other than it being in the first 6 months of this year. Technically EVERY future date is getting closer but that sentence will lead potential customers to believe the launch is "close" which is very different from "closer". Yes June 30 is getting closer but is not close but I'm sure many will misread that and place an order hoping for a March launch date.

Next they claim that because they are "still on track" they are "able to release more of the products". So now all of a sudden batch #2 was actually only the first half of batch #2? That was the plan all along but they needed to wait until they knew they were on track before taking more orders? Having just canceled my pre-order along with many others I think it's obvious that this is most likely in response to a flood of canceled orders, not because they are "still on track". Reeks of deception.

Finally they offer assurances of their Plan B which protects potentials customers in case they "are late". Again there has been no official launch date so technically they would not have to honor Plan B until July 1st but this is worded to work with their misleading "getting closer to launch date" statement to give people a false sense of security.  More promises based on extremely vague details making these promises essentially worthless.

As somebody with a VERY LONG Bitcoin position I personally am enjoying watching the declining price. The greed that the high price has inspired is making me sick. If the price really tanks I will really enjoy watching it screw up all of KNC's sketchy plans made at the expensive of the customers that made their business possible...
vesperwillow
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February 14, 2014, 07:36:45 PM
 #29997

FFS how much energy did you put into that post.

2 minutes and a sip of coffee.. it's not that hard. Milk's questions were decent and required a similar response. Unlike many folks on this thread, he has demonstrated communication skills and seems to want to carry on conversation and pursue facts, routing out the mysteries.

 Can I ask you this why do you spend most of your free time and energy to try and tarnish the KNC name nearly two months before they're due to ship.

I'm not for or against any OEM over another WRT analyzing the situation and sharing what I know or what my estimation is. See my position below.

Although your crusade and all that time spent will be forgotten.  Here you've made your point, then if you're correct you  can quote it in July and gloat.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, if I'm right so be it. I don't take it personally. I've been right before, I've been wrong before. I've predicted difficulty hops 120 days out within 1% accuracy, and the last one I was off decently due to not keeping track of hidden hashpower. It happens. The key is to not take any of this personally and throw attacks out there.

IMHO KNC have so far proved them selfs to be the best option of a bad bunch.  That's why I put more than $50k on them.

I agree, KNC has been the best of the bunch so far. Their product performed much better than estimated, and their delivery time was only about a month off. I had full confidence because of this for the 2nd batch as well. WRT buying something from them again, once emerging negative patterns started popping out, I couldn't give them a full stamp of approval anymore, but would've been willing to go with them. They still were a good solution for others though, at the time.

However, since then, no physical product from them at this point in time would be a good purchase, UNLESS you're hedging on BTC value shooting up, which would also demand you simply hold. Thereagain, you could simply buy and hold without mining.

It's not a campaign to destroy KNC to discuss this.

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February 14, 2014, 07:43:04 PM
 #29998

So I was enquiring about refunds made in btc...... I said I dont have a bank account.


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Refunds are processed in USD via bank transfer, Only management can approve BTC refunds and they are not given for single Neptune purchases.




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February 14, 2014, 07:52:16 PM
 #29999

There is in fact something such as madness of the crowds. Interesting you brought it up since Avenger, myself and a few others, were the minority amongst the noise of the mad crowds--until recently when, perhaps, the crowds began to have the veil pulled off of their face.


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February 14, 2014, 08:08:39 PM
 #30000

......

That was the type of response I was hoping for. I don't mind adverse thoughts to my own, I just wish those thoughts be explained is all. I'd like to expound further on some points, but I think you and I can agree there isn't much more to throw on the table to debate.

I'll close my dribblings with;
I didn't miss the part of ROI ..I'm just saying I don't think an affordable service has anything to do with regard to speculative profits from said investment. Not saying it makes it a wise investment ..some block erupters were "affordable", but not necessarily profitable.

You and others have seen patterns in KnC's behaviors, and I can appreciate drawing conclusions based on the evidence at hand. However, I still hold that it still does not PROVE beyond any reasonable doubt those conclusions are to be taken as fact. I was originally asking for more objectivity to consider plausible alternative circumstances and for less bounding to highly damning accusations ..without fully verified facts of impossible to know conditions.

I understand as well that according to the math done in the thread, figures have come up to a 5.5Th as a best case scenario. However, that is also taking the understanding that all prior, known inputs are the same -that KnC won't change some factors based on previous activity (# of chips for example) Agreed -the primary limiting factor is power, but that remains a larger concern for US miners than other parts of the world. Doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't hit higher figures with larger available power.

I have no problem with the stance you, or Avenger take, to be clear. What I don't like is being so entirely staunch in one idea that any other ideas become impossible to consider, pouncing on anyone that proposes an opposing thought and taking every cheap and sometimes baseless pot shot you can (not saying you particularly).

I really do appreciate the response you've given me.

Also, I mentioned Orama could be on vacation because he hasn't logged into his account here in over a week, or elsewhere.
Yep, but others were pretty quick to draw some other conclusions and just as quick to shout the accusations here as "may as well be fact". My banter wasn't directed at you exclusively.

Avenger -you're mom just needs to stop buying such comfortable underwear.
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