Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Phoenix1969]

Phoey on June 30th... we shall see.
Care to wager an entire coin on that?
Before June 30, I win. June 30 or after, you win.... bet?

[1714113878]

1714113878

[xstr8guy]

I also find laughable that Phoenix seems to think that BitMain's production capacity is "finite"!

They continually meet demand down to the most recent order with almost no build-time.  The only people bitching about wait times for Ants are those with odd billing issues or those who have been scammed by 3rd parties.

I suppose technically there is some limit to their manufacturing capacity but for god's same, they're in CHINA!  And they will keep chucking those miners out until something better comes along or they've completely saturated the market.  No mercy and no bullshit Network Protection Statement!

[Syke]

As a matter of fact, look at the date on your Orama quote, and look at this chart...  
Now tell me he was wrong!

Are you insane too? It went up 20x!!! It didn't "level off" in any way shape or form!!! It's going to keep going another 20x before there's any chance of levelling off happening.

[xstr8guy]

Phoey on June 30th... we shall see.
Care to wager an entire coin on that?
Before June 30, I win. June 30 or after, you win.... bet?

I wouldn't trust you to pay me if you lost.  So, no.

[Bicknellski]

Phoey on June 30th... we shall see.
Care to wager an entire coin on that?
Before June 30, I win. June 30 or after, you win.... bet?

I wouldn't trust you to pay me if you lost.  So, no.

ESCROW!

[Phoenix1969]

I also find laughable that Phoenix seems to think that BitMain's production capacity is "finite"!

They continually meet demand down to the most recent order with almost no build-time.  The only people bitching about wait times for Ants are those with odd billing issues or those who have been scammed by 3rd parties.

I suppose technically there is some limit to their manufacturing capacity but for god's same, they're in CHINA!  And they will keep chucking those miners out until something better comes along or they've completely saturated the market.  No mercy and no bullshit Network Protection Statement!

on the flip side of that...I think its odd for someone to think their production capacity is "infinite". The batch size of chips wont magically grow overnight, you're just foolin yourself. What you are saying, would take a chip line dedicated to producing their chips, indefinately, and having an endless supply of components to back it up. In which case there would be no batch sales...and it is. There needs to be parts. No matter what their location is. Absolutely everything in the electronic world production component wise is ordered in batches. You'd think a company nestled in the heart of silicon valley with an "All-Star" team of Guru's and connections would have such access, and look how that turned out.

Oh yeah, and I hate to break this to you, but you can contribute a significantly large portion of the recent and current diffchanges to the addition of hashpower to the Boden facility, so it's not like Bitmain or Antminer combined are responsible for the current diffchange in any overwhelming  way.

[xstr8guy]

I also find laughable that Phoenix seems to think that BitMain's production capacity is "finite"!

They continually meet demand down to the most recent order with almost no build-time.  The only people bitching about wait times for Ants are those with odd billing issues or those who have been scammed by 3rd parties.

I suppose technically there is some limit to their manufacturing capacity but for god's same, they're in CHINA!  And they will keep chucking those miners out until something better comes along or they've completely saturated the market.  No mercy and no bullshit Network Protection Statement!

on the flip side of that...I think its odd for someone to think their production capacity is "infinite". no matter what their location is.

Are you daft!  Or do you just choose not to read and comprehend entire posts.

My point, and it was clearly made, is that BitMain has not yet reached it's manufacturing capacity and isn't likely to as long as they are making money.  They will simply continue to add capacity until it is no longer profitable for them to do so.  Clearly they won't ever need to produce Apple-quantity devices but that type of capacity is right around the corner if they ever need it.


Btw, I do still have my CA Neptune preorder and will probably keep it even if it turns out to be a hosted-only option.  I'm just stubborn that way.

[Phoenix1969]

I also find laughable that Phoenix seems to think that BitMain's production capacity is "finite"!

They continually meet demand down to the most recent order with almost no build-time.  The only people bitching about wait times for Ants are those with odd billing issues or those who have been scammed by 3rd parties.

I suppose technically there is some limit to their manufacturing capacity but for god's same, they're in CHINA!  And they will keep chucking those miners out until something better comes along or they've completely saturated the market.  No mercy and no bullshit Network Protection Statement!

on the flip side of that...I think its odd for someone to think their production capacity is "infinite". no matter what their location is.

Are you daft!  Or do you just choose not to read and comprehend entire posts.

My point, and it was clearly made, is that BitMain has not yet reached it's manufacturing capacity and isn't likely to as long as they are making money.  They will simply continue to add capacity until it is no longer profitable for them to do so.  Clearly they won't ever need to produce Apple-quantity devices but that type of capacity is right around the corner if they ever need it.


Btw, I do still have my CA Neptune preorder and will probably keep it even if it turns out to be a hosted-only option.  I'm just stubborn that way.

sry , yeah, I need checked once in a while...    lol  but I think We're on the same page still

[xstr8guy]

I also find laughable that Phoenix seems to think that BitMain's production capacity is "finite"!

They continually meet demand down to the most recent order with almost no build-time.  The only people bitching about wait times for Ants are those with odd billing issues or those who have been scammed by 3rd parties.

I suppose technically there is some limit to their manufacturing capacity but for god's same, they're in CHINA!  And they will keep chucking those miners out until something better comes along or they've completely saturated the market.  No mercy and no bullshit Network Protection Statement!

on the flip side of that...I think its odd for someone to think their production capacity is "infinite". no matter what their location is.

Are you daft!  Or do you just choose not to read and comprehend entire posts.

My point, and it was clearly made, is that BitMain has not yet reached it's manufacturing capacity and isn't likely to as long as they are making money.  They will simply continue to add capacity until it is no longer profitable for them to do so.  Clearly they won't ever need to produce Apple-quantity devices but that type of capacity is right around the corner if they ever need it.


Btw, I do still have my CA Neptune preorder and will probably keep it even if it turns out to be a hosted-only option.  I'm just stubborn that way.

sry , yeah, I need checked once in a while...    lol  but I think We're on the same page still

Lol, I don't think we are on the same page.  AT. ALL.

You give the impression that KNC is somehow untouchable in their domination.  It wasn't all that long ago that ASICMiner were nearing 40% of the network (or some such number) and Avalon were flooding the market.  And remember that GHash.io is almost entirely built with Bitfury machines.  And when the next wave of miners hit (ASICMiner 2, Avalon 3, BitMain AntMiner S2, Bitfury V1.2, etc), they will flood the market... and very likely well in advance of the Neptunes.

You can almost be guaranteed that the next wave will compete in all facets; density, electrical efficiency, price, availability, etc.  KNC is not going to be head-n-shoulders above anyone other than process node.  And no one gives a shit about that.  55nm was superior to 28nm in many instances.  And I see 40nm killing the most recent batch of 28nm ASICs and closing the gap even further with KNC's 20nm... if 20nm ever sees the light of day.

[Puppet]

on the flip side of that...I think its odd for someone to think their production capacity is "infinite". The batch size of chips wont magically grow overnight,

There is nothing magical about increasing your orders at the fab. Are you suggesting their fab is running out of capacity? To be fair, I have no idea which fab they use, but given the process node and their location, Im going to guess its UMC. UMC has over 10 fabs, just one of which (Fab 12i in Singapore) has the capacity to produce 45000 12" 55nm wafers per month. HOw many chips is that? Well, again Ill have to guess, since I dont know their die size. Given that the packaged chip is 8x8mm, it would be surprising if the die was bigger than 4x4mm. At that size, there would be almost 4000 chip candidates per 12" wafer.

So that single fab theoretically has the capacity to produce a guestimated 4000x45000= 180 million chips, good for 270PH per month

Of course, Bitmain will not be UMC's only customer, there will be yield issues, etc, so  the number will be substantially lower, but whatever it is, it may not be "infinite", but its staggering and chip production capacity at this point, is clearly still a non issue.

edit: one more thing; there is a still a significant "latency" in the production process, it will take UMC ~2 months to produce whatever Bitmain ordered. But just think what the likely consequence is of that. Bitmain was a tiny startup likely with limited funds. Now they are swimming in money and can afford to order however much they need/want. The result of that is probably only just beginning to hit the hashrate graphs.

[edgar]

I also find laughable that Phoenix seems to think that BitMain's production capacity is "finite"!

They continually meet demand down to the most recent order with almost no build-time.  The only people bitching about wait times for Ants are those with odd billing issues or those who have been scammed by 3rd parties.

I suppose technically there is some limit to their manufacturing capacity but for god's same, they're in CHINA!  And they will keep chucking those miners out until something better comes along or they've completely saturated the market.  No mercy and no bullshit Network Protection Statement!

on the flip side of that...I think its odd for someone to think their production capacity is "infinite". no matter what their location is.

Are you daft!  Or do you just choose not to read and comprehend entire posts.

My point, and it was clearly made, is that BitMain has not yet reached it's manufacturing capacity and isn't likely to as long as they are making money.  They will simply continue to add capacity until it is no longer profitable for them to do so.  Clearly they won't ever need to produce Apple-quantity devices but that type of capacity is right around the corner if they ever need it.


Btw, I do still have my CA Neptune preorder and will probably keep it even if it turns out to be a hosted-only option.  I'm just stubborn that way.

that would be BOTH, and he's been that way for well over a year!  Presumably his entire life thus far

some would say its simplicity, i say its cunning disguised as ignorance.

which is why he and his 'mates' are the only ones who agree with each other. and behave similarly.

pretending to be dumb to take advantage of the noobs & uninitiated ppl...

I wouldnt trust him either...  Escrow or otherwise, he's known for being a crook/confidence abuser.

he promises to 'be out' 'be done' 'be finished' fucking with us but ALWAYS comes back for more, either as his 'im a spastic, you can trust me' self or as various alt-egos that are designed for the same purpose.

misleading ppl into losing their coins, faith in people & time.

NOT. TO. BE. TRUSTED!

'KnC are so awesome you guys, they never lied to us, misled us or used us & our collective funds against us at all.... i love them and want to have their baby - hence my continued efforts at releasing one 'new hardware' scam after another'!!

Phonie - 'i cant turn left or right & i pretend to ignore ppl but stalk them with my fake accounts' X

[Flashman]

My point, and it was clearly made, is that BitMain has not yet reached it's manufacturing capacity and isn't likely to as long as they are making money.  They will simply continue to add capacity until it is no longer profitable for them to do so.  Clearly they won't ever need to produce Apple-quantity devices but that type of capacity is right around the corner if they ever need it.

Agreed, how low can they go do you think? Assuming they've covered NRE by now and it's all gravy, $50?

[Searing]

"Can" is key, but 200 units a day like Knc did with Jupiter means a batch of 1200 complete in 6 days, so I beg to differ.
1200 times 3 or 4 Th/s in 6 days......  (up to 4.8 petahashes) how is bitmain supposed to touch that?  Can bitmain ship 4-5 petahashes per 6 days.... I think not. They can "ramp up" all they want, it won't change things much, especially after Neptune.

Ok, if you're right about KnC's capacity to deliver, then you're just proving my initial point. Neptune won't break even. There's just too much hashpower coming online in the next few months.

again you could be correct but the other side of the coin is difficulty is a percentage of total network hash power can they really keep upping hash power vs the total network as it is to effect difficulty to a 15-20% uptick or is it just gonna be a flash in the pan and then ramp up again in fall with new generation of machines? ie lots of stuff is coming out NOW but there is some lag imho on how the stuff shoots out ie usually they all do it at the same time in bunches according to the technology they manage to upgrade

then also there is the equip falling off the other end that is no longer profitable (my jupiter knc oct comes to mind this summer) and the dip in USD for bitcoin may have slowed stuff down too...

again i know zip but just saying and i may likely pull the plug here soon w/o more info from KNC but its why i'm holding at this point (i'm brave as hell with refund...new companies no refund ...er not so much)


Searing

You still have your orders with that English outfit (name escapes me), right? - for the scrypt gear? I think you're going to clean house with that order. I didn't think they were real but their regular updates look legit. To be honest KnC's titan is interesting, but pre-order ...sorry, new home comes first   I'm holding out for an in stock scrypt asic miner before I take the plunge.

Good luck to you and your orders. If things work out you'll be in a great spot this summer.

well the place is www.alpha-t.net and march 28th they are re-opening orders for  new customers on the cancelled units from the first batch first come first serve....current customers can upgrade now...myself NO ..I too think they are legit...and they sold me an alpha unit mh for 1/3 down (yeah they take paypal so you have some protection other 2/3 due before shipping so add a 45 day buffer on to that if that end don't work out) ...but again I too don't think they are scammers they just look like me and my buddy trying to pull this off with a rich buddy that can make the chips in India..ie they have an in...for $2200 bucks I figured I'd take a chance even if they are late end of summer i am guessing i'd get ROI back..(if btc goes back up alts will to if nothing else) ...but yeah they are green as grass

so anyway i'm 1/3 in can pay the other 2/3 via paypal and cc option under amex and bail on last part of their supposed shipping date if they pull a BFL but again this is a 2200 toy ....so i was pleased when they said I know may get a 16mh unit for same  price (thank you knc for scaring the bejebbes out of them)

anyway it is a modest gamble if i follow it all the way to the end and with some penalties i could prob get 1/2 of my orig 1/3 down payment back..but ..yeah the concern is they may be legit and not scammers but they still may not pull it off..thus my holding off on another unit or upgrading for 6800 bucks or some such to the 90mh unit

place your bets guys...but march 28th with the above 'protections:??" in place.....via paypal and 1/3 down and 2/3 close to shipping ...jumping in the 1st batch que with a 45 day protection NOW ....well you have more options then me to bail should it go south

thems the breaks..but 1 small unit is all i'm going with and again only because i think they are legit with their 1/3 down and paypal method to show their bonafides....but remember I've been wrong before (BFL comes to mind)

anyway my logic on the whole thing i'm treating like Vegas...I placed a bet if it works fine if it don't well this bitcoin poor man venture capitalism is gonna have its downsides occasionally even with the legit companies i guess

Searing

[Searing]

They can talk about "ramping up" production until the cows come home, as it still has zero effect on batch size, or when the next batch will be available, unless they are behind, of course.
I just don't see it.... guess we will find out soon  

Yeah, Bitcoinorama tried to make the same argument.

Dude the hashrate is about to level out for a bit not, continue growing like this for a while.

The difficulty is nearly 20x what it was back then when he made that prediction.

It's not just Bitmaintech. It's all the A1 clones. And Bitfury. And Spondoolies. Etc. Difficulty is still going up exponentially.

I agree, the diff will always rise, and sure... "exponentially", literally.... but at what rate? I'm betting if you add up everyone's potential "on time" cookies, it doesn't add up to any special leap in hashpower all at once, because everyone has a schedule, and the diff is indeed tapering, I posted that chart a couple times already. You will never see another surprise 40% diffchange, those days are over.

As a matter of fact, look at the date on your Orama quote, and look at this chart...  
Now tell me he was wrong!

Keep believing what you want to believe... that KNC is going to kill the difficulty for BitMain, Spooge-Dooties, A1 clones, etc. But you're just flat-out wrong.

If Neptunes are ever delivered (and not just hosted Jupiters), it won't happen until 2 minutes before the 2nd quarter is done.  And that means June 30th.  By that time, the plethora of 1THs+ machines currently (and nearly) shipping will have destroyed the difficulty for late June Neptunes.

Btw, that last 10% difficulty change was an anomaly not likely to be repeated again in the near future.  This next difficulty change is looking to be closer to 20% than 10%.  The Ant swarm-train just keeps on rolling along, devouring everything in its path.  Get on or get eaten.

I don't think anyone will disagree with you about PUNTING the Neptune order back if it drags out to the end of Q2 I myself am gonna get quite antsy around April 15th or so...again if it drags out..i'll look around ....check downsairs and if my underwear is riding up into my butt from fear I'll punt...i'm really gonna miss refunds.....don't think i'd be doing so good "humor' wise if I was waiting on this with a no refund option...don't want to be SAD for 4 months like cointerra pre-orders

but yeah if difficulty is up further then my modest expectations it drags on ...they offer 3Th virtual  hashing till my 3Th machine arrives in July any odd crap like that and I'll bolt like a deer off the highway

so....in my case it is a game of chicken..how long with the info i'll gather and knc's delivery can i hang out and wait till it is plain (even to clueless me in your view) to punt my last Neptune

I'm no virgin in this I've already punted the 1st not customer batch after at 13.2 ..it an't hard a 10min talk with the cute banker lady

Searing

[soy]

Long sorry post follows:

My cable co stopped my modem from allowing me to connect for a day or two and before that I was busy reconciling my 2013 bitcoins for taxes so fell behind but quickly skimmed the pages I missed.  

Looks like I might be best off selling my Mercury with upgrade card (pseudo-Saturn).  I receive Social Security disability benefits.  If I had just bought bitcoins instead of mining I'd have been okay.  As it is, the US IRS seems to be saying mining bitcoins creates the asset and taxes must be paid according to the value when sent to the miner, e.g. the blockchain dollar value of the payout.  Since I took money out of my IRA to buy mining gear and pay bills my income had reached taxable levels in 2013.  Now when I add in the value of the roughly 16 btc I mined in 2013 (I have some other small miners too), not only am I way over and need to pay taxes, but Social Security will turn around and want the disability payments paid back.  That's the crux.  So, a large part of what I mined will be hit by disability payback because I mined.  And, as my mining is only a hobby and not a business I am not permitted to deduct expenses or cost of equipment.  If I sell my pseudo-Saturn I can deduct its cost before 2014 taxes on the profit.  

I'd probably do best parting out the components.  Thing is I don't trust selling mining gear on Paypal given that it's so easy for a buyer to claim faulty gear and get a charge back.  We know that mining is not for the technically weak.  I'd probably most comfortably meet a buyer at a mall in Atlanta and take cash.

There's one more factor.  I've grown emotionally attached to my mining gear and really don't want to sell.

soy

PS: Since I can't deduct cost of gear, I'm doubly happy I went with a single el cheapo 12v switching supply (designed for powering LED signs) for each module rather than a pricey computer switching supply supply.

[padrino]

Long sorry post follows:

My cable co stopped my modem from allowing me to connect for a day or two and before that I was busy reconciling my 2013 bitcoins for taxes so fell behind but quickly skimmed the pages I missed. 

Looks like I might be best off selling my Mercury with upgrade card (pseudo-Saturn).  I receive Social Security disability benefits.  If I had just bought bitcoins instead of mining I'd have been okay.  As it is, the US IRS seems to be saying mining bitcoins creates the asset and taxes must be paid according to the value when sent to the miner, e.g. the blockchain dollar value of the payout.  Since I took money out of my IRA to buy mining gear and pay bills my income had reached taxable levels in 2013.  Now when I add in the value of the roughly 16 btc I mined in 2013 (I have some other small miners too), not only am I way over and need to pay taxes, but Social Security will turn around and want the disability payments paid back.  That's the crux.  So, a large part of what I mined will be hit by disability payback because I mined.  And, as my mining is only a hobby and not a business I am not permitted to deduct expenses or cost of equipment.  If I sell my pseudo-Saturn I can deduct its cost before 2014 taxes on the profit. 

I'd probably do best parting out the components.  Thing is I don't trust selling mining gear on Paypal given that it's so easy for a buyer to claim faulty gear and get a charge back.  We know that mining is not for the technically weak.  I'd probably most comfortably meet a buyer at a mall in Atlanta and take cash.

There's one more factor.  I've grown emotionally attached to my mining gear and really don't want to sell.

soy

Not sure where you are getting your information but since the IRS hasn't issued any formal guidence yet you need to do what makes the most sense given your tax situation. I am not an accountant or tax attorney but I would say treat it as a capital asset that isn't taxed until sold and then you have nothing to worry about this year (assuming you are holding your BTC).

[kendog77]

Long sorry post follows:

My cable co stopped my modem from allowing me to connect for a day or two and before that I was busy reconciling my 2013 bitcoins for taxes so fell behind but quickly skimmed the pages I missed.  

Looks like I might be best off selling my Mercury with upgrade card (pseudo-Saturn).  I receive Social Security disability benefits.  If I had just bought bitcoins instead of mining I'd have been okay.  As it is, the US IRS seems to be saying mining bitcoins creates the asset and taxes must be paid according to the value when sent to the miner, e.g. the blockchain dollar value of the payout.  Since I took money out of my IRA to buy mining gear and pay bills my income had reached taxable levels in 2013.  Now when I add in the value of the roughly 16 btc I mined in 2013 (I have some other small miners too), not only am I way over and need to pay taxes, but Social Security will turn around and want the disability payments paid back.  That's the crux.  So, a large part of what I mined will be hit by disability payback because I mined.  And, as my mining is only a hobby and not a business I am not permitted to deduct expenses or cost of equipment.  If I sell my pseudo-Saturn I can deduct its cost before 2014 taxes on the profit.  

I'd probably do best parting out the components.  Thing is I don't trust selling mining gear on Paypal given that it's so easy for a buyer to claim faulty gear and get a charge back.  We know that mining is not for the technically weak.  I'd probably most comfortably meet a buyer at a mall in Atlanta and take cash.

There's one more factor.  I've grown emotionally attached to my mining gear and really don't want to sell.

soy

Not sure where you are getting your information but since the IRS hasn't issued any formal guidence yet you need to do what makes the most sense given your tax situation. I am not an accountant or tax attorney but I would say treat it as a capital asset that isn't taxed until sold and then you have nothing to worry about this year (assuming you are holding your BTC).

I took the position padrino specified above and will continue to do so until the IRS issues formal guidance. Basically, mined Bitcoins are not taxable until you either sell or spend them, and the cost of mining hardware can be deducted against mining income.

[Magnus]

I think that I have to visit the KnC datacentre in Boden (It's about 40 miles from me.) and see whats up there.

[Phoenix1969]

I think that I have to visit the KnC datacentre in Boden (It's about 40 miles from me.) and see whats up there.

Dude. that would be great!  Try and snap some pics!!!
I'd love to get a real gander at the Swedish chef's sufle'!
Bring the workers a pizza to the door, you may possibly get in.... hwehe


Last statement from FINCEN about BTC taxes was that trading would be taxed, and mining was not threatened yet.
It was on coindesk.  But Time will tell.... btw...  Taxes are NOT retro-active in USA brah, they never are. You cannot be taxed on your 2013 btc earnings unless you willingly give it away to them. There is no guideline in place yet, and when it is, it will be from then on, not reaching into the past, they cannot do that unless there was a guideline in place..
as they cannot just decide to tax you after the fact. Guideline comes first, then tax from then on.

SSI and SSD are a different story though.  You will get hammered for whatever passed through your account that they monitor which is over 3000 usd... anything over that you will have to repay. 3000 is what extra they allow you to earn (yearly)if you can without getting the shaft, anything over that will need repaid if it ran through the account you provided them with.  You should have opened a separate account, at a separate bank, if you didn't want them to know.
If it never hit that bank, you are safe. Even better for you might be the BTCe debit card withdrawal using a generic loadable card if you don't mind tossing 5%. I know all this because I take care of a Vietnam Vet, and we run into trouble with his account every year. Wow. I'm betting this will be an issue for many soon. SSI & D recipients who mined and withdrew anything over 3k will be crying the blues.

[1Neptune]

I also find laughable that Phoenix seems to think that BitMain's production capacity is "finite"!

They continually meet demand down to the most recent order with almost no build-time.  The only people bitching about wait times for Ants are those with odd billing issues or those who have been scammed by 3rd parties.

I suppose technically there is some limit to their manufacturing capacity but for god's same, they're in CHINA!  And they will keep chucking those miners out until something better comes along or they've completely saturated the market.  No mercy and no bullshit Network Protection Statement!

on the flip side of that...I think its odd for someone to think their production capacity is "infinite". no matter what their location is.

Are you daft!  Or do you just choose not to read and comprehend entire posts.

My point, and it was clearly made, is that BitMain has not yet reached it's manufacturing capacity and isn't likely to as long as they are making money.  They will simply continue to add capacity until it is no longer profitable for them to do so.  Clearly they won't ever need to produce Apple-quantity devices but that type of capacity is right around the corner if they ever need it.


Btw, I do still have my CA Neptune preorder and will probably keep it even if it turns out to be a hosted-only option.  I'm just stubborn that way.

that would be BOTH, and he's been that way for well over a year!  Presumably his entire life thus far

some would say its simplicity, i say its cunning disguised as ignorance.

which is why he and his 'mates' are the only ones who agree with each other. and behave similarly.

pretending to be dumb to take advantage of the noobs & uninitiated ppl...

I wouldnt trust him either...  Escrow or otherwise, he's known for being a crook/confidence abuser.

he promises to 'be out' 'be done' 'be finished' fucking with us but ALWAYS comes back for more, either as his 'im a spastic, you can trust me' self or as various alt-egos that are designed for the same purpose.

misleading ppl into losing their coins, faith in people & time.

NOT. TO. BE. TRUSTED!

'KnC are so awesome you guys, they never lied to us, misled us or used us & our collective funds against us at all.... i love them and want to have their baby - hence my continued efforts at releasing one 'new hardware' scam after another'!!

Phonie - 'i cant turn left or right & i pretend to ignore ppl but stalk them with my fake accounts' X

Are Phoenix1969 and https://www.facebook.com/orchideric one and the same? Check the friends list on FB.