Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Biodom]

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.

Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl)  and sometimes you say something really stupid.

KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30.

Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.'

No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around …

~L)L~

I think that you intentionally distort the comparison here. Spondoolies ALMOST have the Sp-30, they are 30-45 days away (maybe even closer) while KnC collected the pre-orders in November and still did not deliver until late June (at best), which is full seven months later. In addition, KnC played a clever mindtrick by saying that first batch will be delivered in Q1/Q2 (in some older documents or comments they even said spring). Calling this a possible Q1 product was an exaggeration because they certainly knew that it will NOT be done in Q1. I also find it appalling that they keep making these legalese tricks-like we are not consumers, for example to get from under the consumer protection in EU law.
Whatever they will come up with-good for them, but I will not play the game on these terms.

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[RoadStress]

Just looking back through some of the goings on in this KNC thread. This one caught my eye:

Raskul has proof that KNC won't get their 20nm chips until August …

Yes, I would say that what I have, is proof that it will be august before they get their chips, however, it's my proof and you are not getting to see it  

seriously though ...because my source would get the sack and i'm not being held responsible for that. Information fed via me means it could be one of 300 employees who leaked this info - so my source is safe (well, until that employee resigns).

Of course, we all know that it happened on the 2nd of June … http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/news-and-anouncments/44983-the-neptune-wafers-have-left-the-building

~L)L~

Of course we know that wafers have left the building. What you don't know is that it appears that there will be some problems. Let me refresh your memory about obstacles:

No "Official" press release, but sounds like they will begin shipping the Neptune next week according to their forum and Twitter.

http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/acccounts/45821-why-wont-knc-answer-valid-questions-important-questions-they-are-completely-ignoring?_=1402491925525

I can imagine there could be obstacles , he said , if they see any issues we should start hashing in their mining cloud.

WHAT???

[s1gs3gv]

Reserved for future comments

[jimmothy]

Just looking back through some of the goings on in this KNC thread. This one caught my eye:

Raskul has proof that KNC won't get their 20nm chips until August …

Yes, I would say that what I have, is proof that it will be august before they get their chips, however, it's my proof and you are not getting to see it  

seriously though ...because my source would get the sack and i'm not being held responsible for that. Information fed via me means it could be one of 300 employees who leaked this info - so my source is safe (well, until that employee resigns).

Of course, we all know that it happened on the 2nd of June … http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/news-and-anouncments/44983-the-neptune-wafers-have-left-the-building

~L)L~

Of course we know that wafers have left the building.

So you admit that spondooliestech was talking shit when he said that the 20nm wafers would take at least 4 months? (maybe it wasn't a lie but he was simply wrong.)

[Biodom]

Reserved for future comments

answer my comment-I don't think that you can.

[s1gs3gv]

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.

Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl)  and sometimes you say something really stupid.

KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30.

Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.'

No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around …

~L)L~

I think that you intentionally distort the comparison here. Spondoolies ALMOST have the Sp-30, they are 30-45 days away (maybe even closer) while KnC collected the pre-orders in November and still did not deliver until late June (at best), which is full seven months later. In addition, KnC played a clever mindtrick by saying that first batch will be delivered in Q1/Q2 (in some older documents or comments they even said spring). Calling this a possible Q1 product was an exaggeration because they certainly knew that it will NOT be done in Q1. I also find it appalling that they keep making these legalese tricks-like we are not consumers, for example to get from under the consumer protection in EU law.
Whatever they will come up with-good for them, but I will not play the game on these terms.

No, that wasn't my intent Biodom. The intent was to dispute that KNC forced anybody to do anything. They didn't, people voluntarily purchased pre-orders.

My secondary point was really just an allusion to the obvious … pre-orders seem to be a necessary evil at this stage of the mining equipment game and it isn't only KNC who uses them to fund future products.

[opentoe]

I am waiting to see what KNC and Bitmain do in the next month or so before I commit any more money to equipment.
The SP30 could well be still born ...

What mining equipment do you own right now?

RoadStress, you are the one who needs to answer my question. I'm not selling anything here.
Will you or will you not SP30 match KNC $/GH on the Neptune they ship and include a 100% refund guarantee ?

Don't rush into anything RoadStress, I'll check back later to see what you have to say

~L)L~

I'd love to pre-order an SP30 ( september deliver ) but too chicken right now. Too many variables out there and margins too thin. $5095 and shipping is $100 more then what the SP10 was, so shipping is $300 now.  Boils down to a non refundable $5395 for a 90 day wait. http://daycalc.appspot.com/09/25/2014
I don't think I'd lose out completely, I would get some return back, but not really knowing how much or if bitcoin will rise is putting me in a circling pattern right now. I'd just rather buy a bunch of bitcoin and hold then go through the purchase process and all that. Since I won't be running a 6TH machine in my home because who has 2400 of watts all ready to go and that is like a monthly car payment figure. Hell, I'm talking myself out of it right here. Tsssk, tssssk, tssssk.

[Biodom]

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.

Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl)  and sometimes you say something really stupid.

KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30.

Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.'

No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around …

~L)L~

I think that you intentionally distort the comparison here. Spondoolies ALMOST have the Sp-30, they are 30-45 days away (maybe even closer) while KnC collected the pre-orders in November and still did not deliver until late June (at best), which is full seven months later. In addition, KnC played a clever mindtrick by saying that first batch will be delivered in Q1/Q2 (in some older documents or comments they even said spring). Calling this a possible Q1 product was an exaggeration because they certainly knew that it will NOT be done in Q1. I also find it appalling that they keep making these legalese tricks-like we are not consumers, for example to get from under the consumer protection in EU law.
Whatever they will come up with-good for them, but I will not play the game on these terms.

No, that wasn't my intent Biodom. The intent was to dispute that KNC forced anybody to do anything. They didn't, people voluntarily purchased pre-orders.

My secondary point was really just an allusion to the obvious … pre-orders seem to be a necessary evil at this stage of the mining equipment game and it isn't only KNC who uses them to fund future products.

This is fine.

[jimmothy]

pre-orders seem to be a necessary evil at this stage of the mining equipment game and it isn't only KNC who uses them to fund future products.

That is simply not true. See bitmain/avalon/asicminer/bitfury.

[jimmothy]

I'd love to pre-order an SP30 ( september deliver ) but too chicken right now. Too many variables out there and margins too thin. $5095 and shipping is $100 more then what the SP10 was, so shipping is $300 now.  Boils down to a non refundable $5395 for a 90 day wait. http://daycalc.appspot.com/09/25/2014
I don't think I'd lose out completely, I would get some return back, but not really knowing how much or if bitcoin will rise is putting me in a circling pattern right now. I'd just rather buy a bunch of bitcoin and hold then go through the purchase process and all that. Since I won't be running a 6TH machine in my home because who has 2400 of watts all ready to go and that is like a monthly car payment figure. Hell, I'm talking myself out of it right here. Tsssk, tssssk, tssssk.

Would you gamble $5,000 on satoshi dice? If not then why preorder hardware? (it's probably riskier with much less reward)

You could always buy 6th/s worth of rockminer hardware for less than you could buy an sp30 preorder now. (shipping in 2 weeks vs 3+ months)

But if gambling is fun for you I would not recommend it.

[Biodom]

I am waiting to see what KNC and Bitmain do in the next month or so before I commit any more money to equipment.
The SP30 could well be still born ...

What mining equipment do you own right now?

RoadStress, you are the one who needs to answer my question. I'm not selling anything here.
Will you or will you not SP30 match KNC $/GH on the Neptune they ship and include a 100% refund guarantee ?

Don't rush into anything RoadStress, I'll check back later to see what you have to say

~L)L~

I'd love to pre-order an SP30 ( september deliver ) but too chicken right now. Too many variables out there and margins too thin. $5095 and shipping is $100 more then what the SP10 was, so shipping is $300 now.  Boils down to a non refundable $5395 for a 90 day wait. http://daycalc.appspot.com/09/25/2014
I don't think I'd lose out completely, I would get some return back, but not really knowing how much or if bitcoin will rise is putting me in a circling pattern right now. I'd just rather buy a bunch of bitcoin and hold then go through the purchase process and all that. Since I won't be running a 6TH machine in my home because who has 2400 of watts all ready to go and that is like a monthly car payment figure. Hell, I'm talking myself out of it right here. Tsssk, tssssk, tssssk.

yes, just go for it...What the heck, next year we will not be able to mine at all. I checked my house and it turns out that I have two independent circuits close by; since Sp-30 has 2 independent PSU, you can put each on a separate circuit ( each circuit could handle constant current of 12.5A=1375W in US, so you will be covered even at 110v until 2750W).

[s1gs3gv]

pre-orders seem to be a necessary evil at this stage of the mining equipment game and it isn't only KNC who uses them to fund future products.

That is simply not true. See bitmain/avalon/asicminer/bitfury.

Well, my statement was a generalization … let me qualify it my saying that pre-orders seem to be a necessary evil at this stage of the mining game for innovative and forward looking companies who are trying to secure the future of the bitcoin network with state of the art next generation technology.


As much as I like the Bitmain way of doing things they are opportunistic followers, not leaders. And they and the entire 2nd tier of manufacturers are likely to fall by the wayside over the next couple of years if they don't consolidate.

[opentoe]

yeah maybe ....my timing sucks..KNC's rep went to hell starting 1 wk after i got the Titan....jeez

but yeah I'm stuck with the Titan

as it is now it is pretty clear anyone with 5k or some such should just buy btc on the old (can it be old if btc born in 2009) the ''old' adage...anything UNDER 1k per bitcoin will seem like a 'deal' in 2 years....or the *we shall not mention crosses self* alternative of bust in 2 years

one or the other (at least my splat will be bigger then most if we all fall from 'orbit" neaha neaha)

Searing

yeah, no refund for the Titan - it's easy to guess why. Neptune was fucked up and people used refunds. With a Titan you're stuck forever with the pre-order. Investing in Bitcoins themselves has become more lucrative than hoping for good miners.

KNC needed a fusion of cash quickly and the TITAN was their best bet. They sure as hell snagged a lot of people I bet.

[RoadStress]

So you admit that spondooliestech was talking shit when he said that the 20nm wafers would take at least 4 months? (maybe it wasn't a lie but he was simply wrong.)

Since I can't prove that KnC is lying or not I must take for granted what KnC stated. How long until they package the chips? It's almost 2 weeks and we got no update from KnC. Don't forget that AM got chips in April too, but it took them 2 months to have working miners.

Boils down to a non refundable $5395 for a 90 day wait. http://daycalc.appspot.com/09/25/2014

25 September is too much. I'm thinking that if you order now your unit will be shipped on 10th September which is 2 weeks earlier.

Would you gamble $5,000 on satoshi dice? If not then why preorder hardware? (it's probably riskier with much less reward)

You could always buy 6th/s worth of rockminer hardware for less than you could buy an sp30 preorder now. (shipping in 2 weeks vs 3+ months)

But if gambling is fun for you I would not recommend it.

You really mean this? You really think that gambling on satoshi dice is the same as pre-ordering an SP30? This is the biggest fail statement I have ever seen. Of course hardware in hand is much much better than gambling wtf!

6Th/s worth of rockminer hardware would weight around 80kgs and would need ~7kW of power and you will have 100 cables. OK! Good choice!

[jimmothy]

Of course hardware in hand is much much better than gambling wtf!

Yes but you don't have hardware in hand, you have a promise.

6Th/s worth of rockminer hardware would weight around 80kgs and would need ~7kW of power and you will have 100 cables. OK! Good choice!

And when you ROI before sp30's ordered today begin shipping, you can just sell your rockminer hardware and buy some in stock hardware that is cheaper and more efficient than the sp30.

So you admit that spondooliestech was talking shit when he said that the 20nm wafers would take at least 4 months? (maybe it wasn't a lie but he was simply wrong.)

Since I can't prove that KnC is lying or not I must take for granted what KnC stated. How long until they package the chips? It's almost 2 weeks and we got no update from KnC. Don't forget that AM got chips in April too, but it took them 2 months to have working miners.

KNC has demonstrated more than any company that they can take chips fresh out the fab, put them in miners, and get them out the door ASAP.

Still I expect it to take 1-2 months before neptunes ship after receiving chips.

What makes you think spondoolies is so much better than every asic manufacturer that they can go from receiving chips to shipping products in half a month?

They have demonstrated absolutely zero ability to do this considering they never started selling sp10 until they had a working unit.

[RoadStress]

And when you ROI before sp30's ordered today begin shipping, you can just sell your rockminer hardware and buy some in stock hardware that is cheaper and more efficient than the sp30.

Let's start a challenge. Go ahead and buy for yourself 6TH/s worth of rockminer hardware and mine with it on Eligius so that we can keep track. When I will get my first SP30 I will put it to mine on Eligius and we draw the line on 1st December. Then we compare the results. What do you say?

[opentoe]

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.

Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl)  and sometimes you say something really stupid.

KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30.

Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.'

No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around …

~L)L~

I think that you intentionally distort the comparison here. Spondoolies ALMOST have the Sp-30, they are 30-45 days away (maybe even closer) while KnC collected the pre-orders in November and still did not deliver until late June (at best), which is full seven months later. In addition, KnC played a clever mindtrick by saying that first batch will be delivered in Q1/Q2 (in some older documents or comments they even said spring). Calling this a possible Q1 product was an exaggeration because they certainly knew that it will NOT be done in Q1. I also find it appalling that they keep making these legalese tricks-like we are not consumers, for example to get from under the consumer protection in EU law.
Whatever they will come up with-good for them, but I will not play the game on these terms.

After the Jupiter KNC used all their energy and resources to their monster data center and that's why customers haven't received due attention or come out with another product or one working "Super Jupiter". Usually after 3-4 months a manufacturer would have another product out, but KNC didn't. They took the easy road, get richer and build a monster data center. KNC should make a public apology for shipping that hardware to people. If they were stand up they would have just given the customer back their money in BTC and some compensation. Not a box full of pieces of broken hardware.

[s1gs3gv]

KNC should make a public apology for shipping that hardware to people. If they were stand up they would have just given the customer back their money in BTC and some compensation. Not a box full of pieces of broken hardware.

Agreed.

[jimmothy]

And when you ROI before sp30's ordered today begin shipping, you can just sell your rockminer hardware and buy some in stock hardware that is cheaper and more efficient than the sp30.

Let's start a challenge. Go ahead and buy for yourself 6TH/s worth of rockminer hardware and mine with it on Eligius so that we can keep track. When I will get my first SP30 I will put it to mine on Eligius and we draw the line on 1st December. Then we compare the results. What do you say?

I don't need to buy 6TH/s to know how much it could earn.

I don't care when you will get your miner because that is irrelevant.  All that matters is when the machines you are trying to sell will ship.

I am willing to bet that rxboxes delivered in 2 weeks at $0.1/kwh will break even before sp30s delivered in 3 months at $0.15/kwh break even.

[RoadStress]

I don't need to buy 6TH/s to know how much it could earn.

I don't care when you will get your miner because that is irrelevant.  All that matters is when the machines you are trying to sell will ship.

I am willing to bet that rxboxes delivered in 2 weeks at $0.1/kwh will break even before sp30s delivered in 3 months at $0.15/kwh break even.

Now that's an unfair bet. Why the difference in power costs? I know why. Because the big power requirements.

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.