[1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool

[kano]

Ahh... I was thinking I wasn't seeing it right

By the way, I've certainly mined in your pool.  Currently my gear is on MRR and has been rented pretty much non-stop.  When it's not rented its pointed to ck's solo pool.  The only gear I've got on p2pool any more are 2 S3s that have been running the long-term test on OgNasty's pool.

He was trying to use ckpool for that at some stage.
No idea what he ended up doing.
(ckpool recently added ipv6 support so maybe that's related to his recent comment?)

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[Geremia]

Our recent block, #352722, has 579 transactions. That's better than 2 or 1!

[jonnybravo0311]

Ahh... I was thinking I wasn't seeing it right

By the way, I've certainly mined in your pool.  Currently my gear is on MRR and has been rented pretty much non-stop.  When it's not rented its pointed to ck's solo pool.  The only gear I've got on p2pool any more are 2 S3s that have been running the long-term test on OgNasty's pool.

He was trying to use ckpool for that at some stage.
No idea what he ended up doing.
(ckpool recently added ipv6 support so maybe that's related to his recent comment?)

I'm pretty sure that it's ckpool on top of the p2pool backbone.  You connect as BTCADDRESS-PoP to the pool.  Every miner submits shares that are tracked just like they would be in a typical ckpool installation; however, they are all being pointed to a single address that mines to p2pool.  It's actually a pretty ingenious way to handle variance for the small miners on p2pool.  The only downside to it is that you're stuck on his node(s).  You can't move to another p2pool node because your miner doesn't individually submit share-chain shares.  Currently he's got two nodes running this.  One in EU and the other is on the east coast of the US.

[TheAnalogKid]

Ahh... I was thinking I wasn't seeing it right

By the way, I've certainly mined in your pool.  Currently my gear is on MRR and has been rented pretty much non-stop.  When it's not rented its pointed to ck's solo pool.  The only gear I've got on p2pool any more are 2 S3s that have been running the long-term test on OgNasty's pool.

He was trying to use ckpool for that at some stage.
No idea what he ended up doing.
(ckpool recently added ipv6 support so maybe that's related to his recent comment?)

I'm pretty sure that it's ckpool on top of the p2pool backbone.  You connect as BTCADDRESS-PoP to the pool.  Every miner submits shares that are tracked just like they would be in a typical ckpool installation; however, they are all being pointed to a single address that mines to p2pool.  It's actually a pretty ingenious way to handle variance for the small miners on p2pool.

I believe there's also work being done to use the proxy to be able to balance miner hashrate.  The idea being there to try to mitigate the effects of "swamping" a node if a large miner comes onto a node with a lot of smaller miners, they could be proxied to a different node where their hashrate is more appropriate.

The only downside to it is that you're stuck on his node(s).  You can't move to another p2pool node because your miner doesn't individually submit share-chain shares.  Currently he's got two nodes running this.  One in EU and the other is on the east coast of the US.

Yes, if you're using PoP method, you're tied to either of those nodes.  However you can still connect to them using standard P2Pool methods like any other miner and if you failover your normal shares still count.

The ideas behind the way they're doing it are interesting - sub-pools which in effect create a hub/spoke architecture.  This could well be a viable workaround to the variance issues, as smaller miners can find a local sub-pool to join which under the covers helps make sure they're mining on a node that is appropriate to their mining power.

[MissouriMiner]

Great.  A Block!   I also sent some BTC using sendmany.  Let's hope for some good luck! 

https://blockchain.info/tx/cf1207fdf10be1d86db56f89b8155250f0b1269d8ec321fd1203716739816f67

The transaction I posted is for my sendmany transaction, not for the block.  Sorry for the confusion. 

I know a lot of people got a very small amount of BTC from the donation.  It wasn't much BTC to start with.  I ran this command:

Code:

bitcoin-cli sendmany "" "$(GET http://127.0.0.1:9332/patron_sendmany/0.3/0.0001)"

[squidicuz]

Great.  A Block!   I also sent some BTC using sendmany.  Let's hope for some good luck! 

https://blockchain.info/tx/cf1207fdf10be1d86db56f89b8155250f0b1269d8ec321fd1203716739816f67

The transaction I posted is for my sendmany transaction, not for the block.  Sorry for the confusion. 

I know a lot of people got a very small amount of BTC from the donation.  It wasn't much BTC to start with.  I ran this command:

Code:

bitcoin-cli sendmany "" "$(GET http://127.0.0.1:9332/patron_sendmany/0.3/0.0001)"

Appreciated

[nonnakip]

I'm pretty sure that it's ckpool on top of the p2pool backbone.

There were problems using ckpool as a proxy with heavier network loads. Right now NastyPool uses the P2Pool software to delegate to miners. Since then ck does much work to improve proxy mode.

NastyPool's NastyPoP payout method would like to use ckpool as a P2Pool sub-pool frontend. When I find some time I will give it another test.

[yslyung]

I'm pretty sure that it's ckpool on top of the p2pool backbone.

There were problems using ckpool as a proxy with heavier network loads. Right now NastyPool uses the P2Pool software to delegate to miners. Since then ck does much work to improve proxy mode.

NastyPool's NastyPoP payout method would like to use ckpool as a P2Pool sub-pool frontend. When I find some time I will give it another test.

rise of p2pool ? if there are any improvements, i'm on !

[Songminer]

Man.  Anyone have any idea what people are renting SHA256 rigs to mine.  Mining rental charges have gone through the roof and no matter what I change my rate to, they rent them.

New hot coin out there, or something?

[TheAnalogKid]

Man.  Anyone have any idea what people are renting SHA256 rigs to mine.  Mining rental charges have gone through the roof and no matter what I change my rate to, they rent them.

New hot coin out there, or something?

I think there's been at least 2 SHA256 coins released over the past week.  Over the weekend my SPTech rentals reported over 3000 blocks found, so it sure as heck ain't Bitcoin...

Whatever it is, I'm fine if they keep it going, I'm getting double on my rentals and everything I have has been rented solid.

[Songminer]

Man.  Anyone have any idea what people are renting SHA256 rigs to mine.  Mining rental charges have gone through the roof and no matter what I change my rate to, they rent them.

New hot coin out there, or something?

I think there's been at least 2 SHA256 coins released over the past week.  Over the weekend my SPTech rentals reported over 3000 blocks found, so it sure as heck ain't Bitcoin...

Whatever it is, I'm fine if they keep it going, I'm getting double on my rentals and everything I have has been rented solid.

For sure... just curious, though.  If anyone finds out, post some info.

[Geremia]

I've been with P2Pool since April 5, and have had 8 payouts so far. Each successive payout has been more than the previous one. Is this what's meant that P2Pool is resistant to pool hopping, or is the fact that my payouts are monotonically increasing just a coincidence? (There have been decreasing numbers of P2Pool miners, thus making the payouts larger for those who stick with P2Pool.)

[TheAnalogKid]

I've been with P2Pool since April 5, and have had 8 payouts so far. Each successive payout has been more than the previous one. Is this what's meant that P2Pool is resistant to pool hopping, or is the fact that my payouts are monotonically increasing just a coincidence? (There have been decreasing numbers of P2Pool miners, thus making the payouts larger for those who stick with P2Pool.)

The more shares you have in the chain, the higher your payout.  That could be because of better luck, or the fact that hashrate has been leaving (or both), thus you are able to get more shares that way.

Nothing is "hop-proof".  But, in this case PPLNS is the next best thing.  By design there's a ramp-up period (3 days in this case) where you don't reach full block payout potential until after you've been mining for 3 days.  If you know you've got to put in that much work before you see your "proper" payouts, you're less likely to leave in-between to seek luck elsewhere, lest you've lost most of your past 3 days' worth of work.

From April 5th to April 8th you would have seen payouts increasing since that was your ramp-up period.  Then in the past 12 days we've gone from 304 miners (4/8) down to 267 miners with the most recent block today (woo, another one 2 hours ago!), so in theory you would see earnings increase there as well since there are less shares from the other miners competing with yours.

[Geremia]

I've been with P2Pool since April 5, and have had 8 payouts so far. Each successive payout has been more than the previous one. Is this what's meant that P2Pool is resistant to pool hopping, or is the fact that my payouts are monotonically increasing just a coincidence? (There have been decreasing numbers of P2Pool miners, thus making the payouts larger for those who stick with P2Pool.)

The more shares you have in the chain, the higher your payout.  That could be because of better luck, or the fact that hashrate has been leaving (or both), thus you are able to get more shares that way.

Nothing is "hop-proof".  But, in this case PPLNS is the next best thing.  By design there's a ramp-up period (3 days in this case) where you don't reach full block payout potential until after you've been mining for 3 days.  If you know you've got to put in that much work before you see your "proper" payouts, you're less likely to leave in-between to seek luck elsewhere, lest you've lost most of your past 3 days' worth of work.

From April 5th to April 8th you would have seen payouts increasing since that was your ramp-up period.  Then in the past 12 days we've gone from 304 miners (4/8) down to 267 miners with the most recent block today (woo, another one 2 hours ago!), so in theory you would see earnings increase there as well since there are less shares from the other miners competing with yours.

Yes, I figured the monotonic increase was due, mostly, to a coincidence.

[roy7]

That's why virtually every single p2pool UI out there doesn't show this block - they all base block finds off of accepted p2pool share chain shares.  The exception is windpath's node - he scrapes the blockchain data to get the p2pool blocks regardless of whether the share that solved it is on the p2pool share chain.

Ahhhhhhh. That finally solves the mystery of "missing" blocks on alt coins with rapid blockchains.

[roy7]

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  

I don't think anyone ever properly answered your question so I'll give it a shot.

In this context, "hop" is a technical term related to ways you can exploit pools running certain older payment methods by changing between pools in a way that will increase your income at the expense of other miners on those pools who remain loyal to the pool and stay there all of the time. Eventually some alternate payment methods were developed which were hop-proof in the sense a miner can't enter/leave the pool in a systematic way in order to boost their earnings. The most popular is PPLNS, although to me the most interesting is DGM (by Meni Rosenfeld). (I ran a Terracoin pool for over a year that used DGM.)

So when p2pool says it is Hop-proof, it means you can't abuse the payment method. It doesn't mean people can't or won't still use multiple pools or move around to chase "luck".

If you are interested in more information, read Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems.

[organofcorti]

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  

I don't think anyone ever properly answered your question so I'll give it a shot.

In this context, "hop" is a technical term related to ways you can exploit pools running certain older payment methods by changing between pools in a way that will increase your income at the expense of other miners on those pools who remain loyal to the pool and stay there all of the time. Eventually some alternate payment methods were developed which were hop-proof in the sense a miner can't enter/leave the pool in a systematic way in order to boost their earnings. The most popular is PPLNS, although to me the most interesting is DGM (by Meni Rosenfeld). (I ran a Terracoin pool for over a year that used DGM.)

So when p2pool says it is Hop-proof, it means you can't abuse the payment method. It doesn't mean people can't or won't still use multiple pools or move around to chase "luck".

If you are interested in more information, read Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems.

Nice explanation, roy7. Someone should bookmark this post.

[idonothave]

Man.  Anyone have any idea what people are renting SHA256 rigs to mine.  Mining rental charges have gone through the roof and no matter what I change my rate to, they rent them.

New hot coin out there, or something?

I think there's been at least 2 SHA256 coins released over the past week.  Over the weekend my SPTech rentals reported over 3000 blocks found, so it sure as heck ain't Bitcoin...

Whatever it is, I'm fine if they keep it going, I'm getting double on my rentals and everything I have has been rented solid.

For sure... just curious, though.  If anyone finds out, post some info.

I think it is Californium

[kano]

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  

I don't think anyone ever properly answered your question so I'll give it a shot.

In this context, "hop" is a technical term related to ways you can exploit pools running certain older payment methods by changing between pools in a way that will increase your income at the expense of other miners on those pools who remain loyal to the pool and stay there all of the time. Eventually some alternate payment methods were developed which were hop-proof in the sense a miner can't enter/leave the pool in a systematic way in order to boost their earnings. The most popular is PPLNS, although to me the most interesting is DGM (by Meni Rosenfeld). (I ran a Terracoin pool for over a year that used DGM.)

So when p2pool says it is Hop-proof, it means you can't abuse the payment method. It doesn't mean people can't or won't still use multiple pools or move around to chase "luck".

If you are interested in more information, read Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems.

Nice explanation, roy7. Someone should bookmark this post.

I guess also there needs to be clearly stated that anti-hop functionality is deployed on some pools - slush for example - that means you will not be paid your fair share if you disconnect from the pool either on purpose or due to an outage.

The expected loss is related to the amount of time you disconnect vs the % of the average block find time that the pool pays (whatever that may be)
If you simply just disconnected and don't come back, then it would be related to a % of the average expected loss.

You could compare that to a 'lock-in contract' where you lose out by leaving, except you don't gain much by staying.
There is possibly a very small gain when others lose out by leaving - the amount lost by anyone who disconnected may be distributed to everyone who didn't - so if the pool is 5PH and someone with 5TH lost 100% of their payout, everyone might gain about 0.1% more on that particular payout on their expected 100% less orphans less fees ... of course that depends on how the payout is calculated.

[organofcorti]

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  

I don't think anyone ever properly answered your question so I'll give it a shot.

In this context, "hop" is a technical term related to ways you can exploit pools running certain older payment methods by changing between pools in a way that will increase your income at the expense of other miners on those pools who remain loyal to the pool and stay there all of the time. Eventually some alternate payment methods were developed which were hop-proof in the sense a miner can't enter/leave the pool in a systematic way in order to boost their earnings. The most popular is PPLNS, although to me the most interesting is DGM (by Meni Rosenfeld). (I ran a Terracoin pool for over a year that used DGM.)

So when p2pool says it is Hop-proof, it means you can't abuse the payment method. It doesn't mean people can't or won't still use multiple pools or move around to chase "luck".

If you are interested in more information, read Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems.

Nice explanation, roy7. Someone should bookmark this post.

I guess also there needs to be clearly stated that anti-hop functionality is deployed on some pools - slush for example - that means you will not be paid your fair share if you disconnect from the pool either on purpose or due to an outage.

The expected loss is related to the amount of time you disconnect vs the % of the average block find time that the pool pays (whatever that may be)
If you simply just disconnected and don't come back, then it would be related to a % of the average expected loss.

You could compare that to a 'lock-in contract' where you lose out by leaving, except you don't gain much by staying.
There is possibly a very small gain when others lose out by leaving - the amount lost by anyone who disconnected may be distributed to everyone who didn't - so if the pool is 5PH and someone with 5TH lost 100% of their payout, everyone might gain about 0.1% more on that particular payout on their expected 100% less orphans less fees ... of course that depends on how the payout is calculated.

I'm not sure anyone has proven that to be the case, Kano. From your description you could as easily be talking about PPLNS with a very small N, which is still a fair reward method, and for any fair system expected value of a share should always be B/D.

The expected value of shares submitted over a period of time including disconnections should be the sum of the shares submitted.