[1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool

[mdude77]

Awesome work windpath
 

Can I ask,  what is the end game for hosting a 0% p2pool node?  Obviously it costs you money.

One is to support a decentralized bitcoin I am sure, but what else are your goals?

I'm running a 0% fee node because it cost me a pittance to run it.  I can contribute that pittance to keeping the network going.

M

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[windpath]

I think I understand your proposal, but how do you verify shares in a proposed "round", their order, and their validity for that round without including some data from the (immediately) previous share?

In other words, if I understand you right, miners would be able to throw shares in during a round with the only proof being shares from the previous round, and not including shares already in the current round... So the question becomes how do verify the validity of the existing shares in the current round? How can you stop a single miner from withholding round shares until just before the end of a round, and then pushing out a longer or larger round just before the round end and taking the whole round?

[mdude77]

I think I understand your proposal, but how do you verify shares in a proposed "round", their order, and their validity for that round without including some data from the (immediately) previous share?

In other words, if I understand you right, miners would be able to throw shares in during a round with the only proof being shares from the previous round, and not including shares already in the current round... So the question becomes how do verify the validity of the existing shares in the current round? How can you stop a single miner from withholding round shares until just before the end of a round, and then pushing out a longer or larger round just before the round end and taking the whole round?

There is still a chain.  It's just not a chain as we know it today.

The current round is based upon the last Bitcoin block + the payout data for all the work submitted up to that point.  That work comes from the share chain, as it does today.  So the current round is STILL based upon all prior work, and can still be verified as such.  Hence each share submitted for that round can be verified, as it has to be based upon that round, which is based upon all the prior work.

With holding shares won't accomplish anything, as far as I can tell.  Remember, a round is until the next Bitcoin block is found on the Bitcoin chain, nothing else.  It's not x number of shares, it's not x minutes, it's until the next Bitcoin block is found.  Maybe I didn't clarify that it's the next Bitcoin block found on the main Bitcoin chain, NOT the p2pool chain? 

M

[zvs]

Awesome work windpath
 

Can I ask,  what is the end game for hosting a 0% p2pool node?  Obviously it costs you money.

One is to support a decentralized bitcoin I am sure, but what else are your goals?

I'm running a 0% fee node because it cost me a pittance to run it.  I can contribute that pittance to keeping the network going.

M

Yeah, I've already had a dedicated server for years, p2pool doesn't take much resources.  I ran a bitcoin one for a long time, now it's on doge for the last 3 or 4 months.  (nogleg.com:9555, hoho)  Oh, I did put a 0.1% fee, 'cause of several people thinking there must be shenanigans going on

[wlz2011]

Chinese friends on the 1st order, on the 17th of arrival.
Here is the actual situation of ants running P2POOL S3, and much better than expected







 

[raskul]

Chinese friends on the 1st order, on the 17th of arrival.
Here is the actual situation of ants running P2POOL S3, and much better than expected

very good, although, it is as would be expected, since it's a local node.

[abdullahadam]

Awesome work windpath
 

Can I ask,  what is the end game for hosting a 0% p2pool node?  Obviously it costs you money.

One is to support a decentralized bitcoin I am sure, but what else are your goals?

Thanks.

My short term goals are pretty similar to many others here:

1. Grow the p2pool network; first through the addition of new nodes run by active miners, and second by providing access to reliable fast nodes for those without the time or inclination to set up their own.

2. Complete transparency; p2pool is in the unique position to be the first completely transparent pool. The data is all there, its just a matter of collecting, storing and presenting it to users.

3. Hardware compatibility; Work towards getting as much existing and new hardware to play well with the pool. New generations of HW are particularly important, as without them the pool will eventually dwindle.

4. Solve the variance/small miner challenges facing the pool so that it can grow and scale while remaining an attractive option to all.

To be honest, right now the "end game" is so far in the future its not even really a concern... At some point, if both Coin Cadence and p2pool are running strong, I do plan to implement some sort of revenue stream to support the operation of my node(s), and maybe even make a small profit, but for now and the foreseeable future working towards the challenges above takes priority, and I'm happy to host my node(s) on my own dime...

+1

You make me want to host a node too haha
Listen thanks for your help guys.  I wish I would have jumped on p2pool ages ago.

I think you should add that 3 day PPLNS period to your site though (maybe on a faq "why are my payouts so low?") .  That was very confusing to me why my payouts were so low in the first day of so. I almost dropped out thinking I'm gonna lose half my income if I stay here.  Glad I hung out long enough to get past that

Also another challenge for noobs is lack of down notifications (I handled this via a cron job now) .  One way I've seen this handled on other pools is you use your email address as your worker password and then the pool can email you when it goes down.  Thoughts?

[mdude77]

Chinese friends on the 1st order, on the 17th of arrival.
Here is the actual situation of ants running P2POOL S3, and much better than expected

very good, although, it is as would be expected, since it's a local node.

Not really.  My S2s lose ~10% of their hashrate local or not on p2pool.

This is good news indeed for p2pool.

M

[jonnybravo0311]

Chinese friends on the 1st order, on the 17th of arrival.
Here is the actual situation of ants running P2POOL S3, and much better than expected

very good, although, it is as would be expected, since it's a local node.

Not really.  My S2s lose ~10% of their hashrate local or not on p2pool.

This is good news indeed for p2pool.

M

Juan from 112bit put up screenshots of his S3 mining on GHash.io yesterday and had an average of 450GH/s.  If the S3 is reporting 439GH/s on p2pool, that's pretty much right on target for Bitmain's claimed specs of 441.  Looks like I'll be plugging mine into my local node after all

[abdullahadam]

I'm wondering,  with high variance on p2pool or another somewhat smaller pool,  is it possible to actually lose money?  Like in the long run luck is irrelevant,  but what if you have really bad luck and then the difficulty goes up 30%?

In this situation do you lose money because of high variance?

I don't understand the math well enough to answer this question but I am sure many of you can

[Muhammed Zakir]

I'm wondering,  with high variance on p2pool or another somewhat smaller pool,  is it possible to actually lose money?  Like in the long run luck is irrelevant,  but what if you have really bad luck and then the difficulty goes up 30%?

In this situation do you lose money because of high variance?

I don't understand the math well enough to answer this question but I am sure many of you can

No, I don't think you will loose money. Now this has grown a lot and I don't think you have to do a long run and will the difficulty go up by 30% ? I don't think so. It will not go all of a sudden. Everything is risky, there is an equal chance for both profit and lose.
Kindly,
       MZ

[-ck]

I'm wondering,  with high variance on p2pool or another somewhat smaller pool,  is it possible to actually lose money?  Like in the long run luck is irrelevant,  but what if you have really bad luck and then the difficulty goes up 30%?

In this situation do you lose money because of high variance?

Yes you can. Consequently you can also gain money. Contrary to what people will insist on, it does NOT even out in the end because difficulty keeps rising. However luck determines if you're ahead long term or behind long term in an irretrievable way. If diff did not continually rise and rose-and-fell or stayed the same it would even out.

[jdot007]

I'm wondering,  with high variance on p2pool or another somewhat smaller pool,  is it possible to actually lose money?  Like in the long run luck is irrelevant,  but what if you have really bad luck and then the difficulty goes up 30%?

In this situation do you lose money because of high variance?

Yes you can. Consequently you can also gain money. Contrary to what people will insist on, it does NOT even out in the end because difficulty keeps rising. However luck determines if you're ahead long term or behind long term in an irretrievable way. If diff did not continually rise and rose-and-fell or stayed the same it would even out.

Additionally Semaster has been tracking = amounts of ants on 3 pools from the beginning of this year https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=416933.0
TL;DR P2pool has generated more coin, but this was also when Eligius and BTCG was being block-withhold attacked.

J 

[abdullahadam]

Yes you can. Consequently you can also gain money. Contrary to what people will insist on, it does NOT even out in the end because difficulty keeps rising. However luck determines if you're ahead long term or behind long term in an irretrievable way. If diff did not continually rise and rose-and-fell or stayed the same it would even out.

Thank you ck

Always good to hear from people that know what they are talking about.  You are pillars of the community.
Cheers!

[jonnybravo0311]

I'm wondering,  with high variance on p2pool or another somewhat smaller pool,  is it possible to actually lose money?  Like in the long run luck is irrelevant,  but what if you have really bad luck and then the difficulty goes up 30%?

In this situation do you lose money because of high variance?

Yes you can. Consequently you can also gain money. Contrary to what people will insist on, it does NOT even out in the end because difficulty keeps rising. However luck determines if you're ahead long term or behind long term in an irretrievable way. If diff did not continually rise and rose-and-fell or stayed the same it would even out.

Your argument is based on the statement that difficulty keeps rising.  While historically this is true, it is not a guarantee of future patterns.  Yes, we have seen some insane rises in difficulty, but that is due to a number of factors including wider acceptance, general knowledge of crypto-currencies, incredible hardware advances, etc.  I don't think we can state as a fact that difficulty will forever continuously rise.

Just as you can have swings of bad luck, you can also have swings of good luck, which you correctly argue.  It would be an interesting experiment to see where the "tipping point" is.  In other words if we assume X change in difficulty, what is the point Y of bad luck from which you will likely never be able to recover?

There is a forum member named davejh who does some really great statistical analysis.  I'd love to see him plot this kind of thing.

[bryonp]

Your argument is based on the statement that difficulty keeps rising.  While historically this is true, it is not a guarantee of future patterns.  Yes, we have seen some insane rises in difficulty, but that is due to a number of factors including wider acceptance, general knowledge of crypto-currencies, incredible hardware advances, etc.  I don't think we can state as a fact that difficulty will forever continuously rise.

Just wondering... I thought that the difficulty levels where built in to the whole pattern... or design of bitcoin and mining...
I thought that it was set well in advance every level?
Is it possible that it will stop going up??
I figured for sure within a few months I would be pushed out because of this and the expenses...?
Running 4 TH for a few months now and it has gone way down.....

[abdullahadam]

Your argument is based on the statement that difficulty keeps rising.  While historically this is true, it is not a guarantee of future patterns.  Yes, we have seen some insane rises in difficulty, but that is due to a number of factors including wider acceptance, general knowledge of crypto-currencies, incredible hardware advances, etc.  I don't think we can state as a fact that difficulty will forever continuously rise.

Just wondering... I thought that the difficulty levels where built in to the whole pattern... or design of bitcoin and mining...
I thought that it was set well in advance every level?
Is it possible that it will stop going up??
I figured for sure within a few months I would be pushed out because of this and the expenses...?
Running 4 TH for a few months now and it has gone way down.....

It can go down if the hashrate drops.  See the table at the bottom, difficulty did go down twice before.
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

This will only happen if the profit that you can get out of buying new mining equipment is less than the total return (or estimated speculative return).  Or if the total profit is less than the cost to run the unit (loss situation), then people will start turning off their machines.

Already a lot of the older hardware (BFL, some of those USB miners) have been shut off as they are losing money to run

[jonnybravo0311]

Your argument is based on the statement that difficulty keeps rising.  While historically this is true, it is not a guarantee of future patterns.  Yes, we have seen some insane rises in difficulty, but that is due to a number of factors including wider acceptance, general knowledge of crypto-currencies, incredible hardware advances, etc.  I don't think we can state as a fact that difficulty will forever continuously rise.

Just wondering... I thought that the difficulty levels where built in to the whole pattern... or design of bitcoin and mining...
I thought that it was set well in advance every level?
Is it possible that it will stop going up??
I figured for sure within a few months I would be pushed out because of this and the expenses...?
Running 4 TH for a few months now and it has gone way down.....

The difficulty is not set in advance, it is a byproduct of the network "resetting" itself to ensure 10 minute block generation time.  Every 2016 blocks, the network basically says, "Ok, it's been 2016 blocks.  How long did it take me to get here?  How does that compare to what it was supposed to be?  Adjust to compensate."

Yes, that's a simplification, but you get the point.

Given this description, you can see that it indeed can stop going up.  If the average time for the previous 2016 blocks is greater than 10 minutes, then it would go down to compensate.  Last time that happened?  January, 2013.

[bryonp]

Your argument is based on the statement that difficulty keeps rising.  While historically this is true, it is not a guarantee of future patterns.  Yes, we have seen some insane rises in difficulty, but that is due to a number of factors including wider acceptance, general knowledge of crypto-currencies, incredible hardware advances, etc.  I don't think we can state as a fact that difficulty will forever continuously rise.

Just wondering... I thought that the difficulty levels where built in to the whole pattern... or design of bitcoin and mining...
I thought that it was set well in advance every level?
Is it possible that it will stop going up??
I figured for sure within a few months I would be pushed out because of this and the expenses...?
Running 4 TH for a few months now and it has gone way down.....

The difficulty is not set in advance, it is a byproduct of the network "resetting" itself to ensure 10 minute block generation time.  Every 2016 blocks, the network basically says, "Ok, it's been 2016 blocks.  How long did it take me to get here?  How does that compare to what it was supposed to be?  Adjust to compensate."

Yes, that's a simplification, but you get the point.

Given this description, you can see that it indeed can stop going up.  If the average time for the previous 2016 blocks is greater than 10 minutes, then it would go down to compensate.  Last time that happened?  January, 2013.

Thanks guys... After I wrote that... I went and reread up on it and I see what your saying....
I kinda forgot it...
Wish it would level out a bit......
Thanks again

[maqifrnswa]

I'm wondering,  with high variance on p2pool or another somewhat smaller pool,  is it possible to actually lose money?  Like in the long run luck is irrelevant,  but what if you have really bad luck and then the difficulty goes up 30%?

In this situation do you lose money because of high variance?

Yes you can. Consequently you can also gain money. Contrary to what people will insist on, it does NOT even out in the end because difficulty keeps rising. However luck determines if you're ahead long term or behind long term in an irretrievable way. If diff did not continually rise and rose-and-fell or stayed the same it would even out.

While your bad luck up front won't even out in the end, neither will your good luck up front. I think people that say it will "even out in the end" mean that if you were to start mining now, you are just as likely to be lucky as unlucky, so the expected value washes out so in the end (from now until you stop). Of course, that ignores everything in the past. So if I was unlucky, I lost money. Going forward, everything will even out (from now on). If I was lucky, I made money - but going forward (from now on) it will even out.