NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[QBTC]

NXT on Vircurex

Just posted on my @nxtcrypto Twitter from Chris Mueller:

"@NxtCrypto vircurex.com/main/index 26 Jan 2014 - Nextcoin (NXT) NEW We will be adding support for Nextcoin (NXT) today or latest tomorrow"

Now, how about that?! Spread it around!

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[kunibopl]

c) how will the majority vote take effect?

AFAIK voting is only for opinion, no "legal" consequences.

so what is it good for then?
I assume the idea is not to vote on wether Nxt community likes turtles to fly or to crawl!?
I assume we vote for codechanges!? and when we come to a majority vote on a code change, we expect whom to implement this code change?

[Alias]

wooohooo

https://vircurex.com/main/index

26 Jan 2014 - Nextcoin (NXT) NEW
We will be adding support for Nextcoin (NXT) today or latest tomorrow, unless our final quality assurance tests bring up any unexpected issues.

Oh yeah!

ohh yeah ohh yeah , at last some exchange I can trade in ...

nice

great

Will be interesting to see whether this has any effect on the nxt price

There will certainly be an effect on the price of Nxt. Particularly if we get more than just a NXT/BTC trade pair.

And... if I'm not mistaken, one can trade any currency listed on Vircurex against any other. So we are about to get our first NXT/USD and NXT/EUR trade pairs!

They just don't list/link all the trade pairs on the front page (it makes sense because there are "N choose 2" possible pairs, where N is the number of distinct currencies. With the addition of NXT that will be 18C2 = 153 possible pairs).

E.g. On the Vircurex Homepage they list LTC/BTC. Clicking that gives the following URL "https://vircurex.com/orders?alt=ltc&base=btc". Changing "base=btc" to "base=eur" or to "base=usd" gives the following:

https://vircurex.com/orders?alt=ltc&base=usd
https://vircurex.com/orders?alt=ltc&base=eur

Admittedly these have lower liquidity because they aren't advertised very well. Ergo, I think we need to do our part to promote the NXT/USD and NXT/EUR pairs! Who's with me!? Perhaps if the liquidity of NXT/USD or NXT/EUR increased the Vircurex team might put some links to them on their homepage!

[mindtomatter]

+ 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}

+ 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}

These won't work. They are easily defeated by splitting your wealth over several accounts.

I'm in favor of one vote per NXT.  That maximizes the value of each NXT rather than the value of having multiple accounts, or paying people to scam the system for you in some other way.

Any time you try to decentralized system that makes it difficult to game the system, you restrict the people who game the system to people who are willing to go against the implied moral contract of the platform (that you'll play by the rules).   In that way, I suggest it is better to allow everybody to "cheat" so that "cheating" is performed by good actors AND bad actors instead of just by actors willing to be bad.

NXT has a major concentration of wealth right now, but that's changing pretty quickly and if it gets popular I've got to imagine the temptation to sell part of their stakes will be too great for most.

It's really interesting watching this community - you guys are the only "headless" metalayer, lacking a founder or team and yet delivering with real working software.   

Keep up the good work

[klee]

wooohooo

https://vircurex.com/main/index

26 Jan 2014 - Nextcoin (NXT) NEW
We will be adding support for Nextcoin (NXT) today or latest tomorrow, unless our final quality assurance tests bring up any unexpected issues.

Oh yeah!

ohh yeah ohh yeah , at last some exchange I can trade in ...

nice

great

Will be interesting to see whether this has any effect on the nxt price

There will certainly be an effect on the price of Nxt. Particularly if we get more than just a NXT/BTC trade pair.

And... if I'm not mistaken, one can trade any currency listed on Vircurex against any other. So we are about to get our first NXT/USD and NXT/EUR trade pairs!

They just don't list/link all the trade pairs on the front page (it makes sense because there are "N choose 2" possible pairs, where N is the number of distinct currencies. With the addition of NXT that will be 18C2 = 153 possible pairs).

E.g. On the Vircurex Homepage they list LTC/BTC. Clicking that gives the following URL "https://vircurex.com/orders?alt=ltc&base=btc". Changing "base=btc" to "base=eur" or to "base=usd" gives the following:

https://vircurex.com/orders?alt=ltc&base=usd
https://vircurex.com/orders?alt=ltc&base=eur

Admittedly these have lower liquidity because they aren't advertised very well. Ergo, I think we need to do our part to promote the NXT/USD and NXT/EUR pairs! Who's with me!? Perhaps if the liquidity of NXT/USD or NXT/EUR increased the Vircurex team might put some links to them on their homepage!

https://vircurex.com/accounts

Coming Soon

[rickyjames]

...
It's a polarizing farce that we really shouldn't attach ourselves to.

That's all there is to say. Leave it at energy costs and other implications.

+1

[ChuckOne]

I was thinking of the voting issue as well. So far, a pattern is emerging.

Let v be the voting function, mapping the amount x in one account to it's voting weight: v(x) -> weight of voting. Let's further assume v is monotonically increasing (the more you have the more your vote weigh in) and differentiable (so we have a v').

There are three cases:

1) v' is increasing => merging accounts is more valuable regarding voting => merging encouraged
2) v' is constant => 1 Nxt = 1 Vote; conservative; no change encouraged
3) v' is decreasing => splitting accounts is more valuable regarding voting => splitting encouraged

From my perspective, distribution of nxts is a good thing. So, higher amounts of fees are a good thing. Therefore, splitting and merging accounts should be encouraged as big shareholders then have to give away fees. These fees are then given to the ones forging and stabilizing the network.

On the other hand, splitting and merging just because somebody wants to act in the best interest of the network seem to me like spoon-feeding that somebody.

So, why not making v dependent of the amount of fee somebody is willing to pay for it. I favor a logarithmic scale: v(fee) = log(fee).
In that case, one could even imagine that these special fees aren't just given to block forgers but are evenly distributed among 'all voters' or 'winners' or 'loosers' of the voting session.
So, voting is encouraged.

[ChuckOne]

One big issue with that distributed and anonymous voting system is:

Who is gonna enforce the outcome? Actually, nobody.

A great politician once said: Never make rule you cannot enforce.

So, this voting system only for gathering opinions.

UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.

[kunibopl]

please anyone explain me why the voting system is needed?
give me one concrete example why it could be useful.

[pinarello]

speaking of:

please vote yes upper right corner

http://www.cryptmarketcap.com/

Pin

[Uniqueorn]

I had no idea that talking about the single most pressing and confirmed issue in science in the recent decades would open a can of worms.

Let me first say:
I respect that there are people who have not read the scientific literature on the matter.
The "opponents" of global warming has managed to do a great job psychologically in making a lot of people believe that global warming is some sort of scam or somehow that it's just another hypothesis.
To me this is actually quite mindboggling with all the emperical data that exist and the borderline unprecedented consensus within the scientifiy community.
Even gravity is more controversial than global warming at this point, at least gravity is irreconcilable with relativistic quantum mechanics.
Proof of consensus on global warming and climate change: http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

So why do I mention this instead of just playing it neutral to not step anyone on their toes? Because it is real and I refuse to ignore this just because it "might" offend some redneck idiot because we might lose a few dollars over it. That is worse than what the banks is doing today, at least they just steal money and don't force people to remain ignorant and dumb.

As one of the guys who actually got into cryptos because I also actually believe in the need for change I will not piss on my principles.

But hey, I am not going to create the video so sure it's up for vote if we are going to include the fact that NXT is important due to the insane amounts of energy Bitcoin uses which is detrimental to the worlds ecosystem.

If you happen to lack knowledge about global warming and don't want it to be included: feel free to vote against it, since it's decentralized and democratic you have all the right to ignore reality.
But I honestly think it would be a much, much more honest and influential way to show just how important it is that a mining altcoin don't become THE FUTURE.

[Alias]

...
It's a polarizing farce that we really shouldn't attach ourselves to.

That's all there is to say. Leave it at energy costs and other implications.

+1

There is but one reason why it is polarizing. It is a serious problem and it is very difficult to solve. So there are 2 camps - those who "care and don't know how to fix it" and those who "don't care and don't know how to fix it".

Perhaps a solution is in order. I do suppose having humanity's global socioeconomic system running on a few ten's of thousands of raspberry pi's is a good start. Then those who care can continue to solve the problem while those who don't care are free to f*ck off to pollute some other planet (though they shouldn't do that either).

[kunibopl]

One big issue with that distributed and anonymous voting system is:

Who is gonna enforce the outcome? Actually, nobody.

A great politician once said: Never make rule you cannot enforce.

So, this voting system only for gathering opinions.

UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.

the only reasonable VS would be if the Nxt network itself can enforce the outcome of a voting.
this would be like coding an AI -> it's impossible.

[NxtChg]

NXT has a major concentration of wealth right now, but that's changing pretty quickly...

It will also be changing back pretty quickly, if history tells us anything

There will always be extremely rich, so if we want more democratic approach we need to find a solution.

I don't mind people voting with their money, but not at 1:1 ratio.

[bitcoinpaul]

UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.

Leave it with the opinion function. More could mean a disaster.

1 nxt = 1 voice is fine. Case solved. Now implement it! 

[Alias]

https://vircurex.com/accounts

Coming Soon

I remember fiat deposits being available in the past... but there was some type of problem with the payment processors they were using.

Whoops, my bad. I definitely withdrew fiat from Vircurex a few months ago. That's a pity.

Hopefully Kraken will launch a NXT/USD and/or NXT/EUR trade pair soon.

[davethetrousers]

Well, here's a fun guy.  Not going to give much attention to that whole spiel, but this here is just plain wrong:

If there is one issue big government loves more than global warming it is difficult to tell.

If governments around the world really somehow loved global warming the way you suppose, it should be noticeable in any relevant way. But even when I look at local crazy socialist fascist European politics, one thing that politicians in power try to care as little about as possible is CO₂ emissions. For example, the German government (which is somehow known internationally to be the vanguard of environmentalism) is trying semi-secretly all the time, together with auto corporations, to disregard any environmental considerations and allow producers to build the highest possible amount of cars (and the biggest possible ones at that) they can.

In reality, governments have to be pressured from all sides (academics, elections, the public, even facts!) all the time to do even the bare minimal actions regarding the scientific fact of global warming.

[/evil_socialist_mode]

Ok, now that I got that out, I can now say how little I personally care about global warming. Why? Mostly because blind energy and resource consumption is so detrimental in and of itself. A Watt of energy wasted is a wasted Watt of energy, period, and one Watt less for later use. Don't believe in global warming all you want, but resources are finite, and we get almost all energy from mining and pumping finite resources. The fact of scarcity should be something even right "libertarians" should be able to get behind.

And now some über-scientific American right "libertarian" can go ahead and tell me how oil resources are unlimited, please

[Bitventurer]

+ 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}

+ 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}

These won't work. They are easily defeated by splitting your wealth over several accounts.

I'm in favor of one vote per NXT.  That maximizes the value of each NXT rather than the value of having multiple accounts, or paying people to scam the system for you in some other way.

Any time you try to decentralized system that makes it difficult to game the system, you restrict the people who game the system to people who are willing to go against the implied moral contract of the platform (that you'll play by the rules).   In that way, I suggest it is better to allow everybody to "cheat" so that "cheating" is performed by good actors AND bad actors instead of just by actors willing to be bad.

NXT has a major concentration of wealth right now, but that's changing pretty quickly and if it gets popular I've got to imagine the temptation to sell part of their stakes will be too great for most.

It's really interesting watching this community - you guys are the only "headless" metalayer, lacking a founder or team and yet delivering with real working software.   

Keep up the good work

thanks man! your always welcomed in our thread!

[NxtChg]

Please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here.

[smartwart]

I was thinking of the voting issue as well. So far, a pattern is emerging.

Let v be the voting function, mapping the amount x in one account to it's voting weight: v(x) -> weight of voting. Let's further assume v is monotonically increasing (the more you have the more your vote weigh in) and differentiable (so we have a v').

There are three cases:

1) v' is increasing => merging accounts is more valuable regarding voting => merging encouraged
2) v' is constant => 1 Nxt = 1 Vote; conservative; no change encouraged
3) v' is decreasing => splitting accounts is more valuable regarding voting => splitting encouraged

From my perspective, distribution of nxts is a good thing. So, higher amounts of fees are a good thing. Therefore, splitting and merging accounts should be encouraged as big shareholders then have to give away fees. These fees are then given to the ones forging and stabilizing the network.

On the other hand, splitting and merging just because somebody wants to act in the best interest of the network seem to me like spoon-feeding that somebody.

So, why not making v dependent of the amount of fee somebody is willing to pay for it. I favor a logarithmic scale: v(fee) = log(fee).
In that case, one could even imagine that these special fees aren't just given to block forgers but are evenly distributed among 'all voters' or 'winners' or 'loosers' of the voting session.
So, voting is encouraged.

Please, can you put your approach in a mathematical expression?
That would be really helpful!!!
Just write it down in one or more terms.
Don't care about if its bullet proof.
If you like, you could add it to collection of voting models?

cheers