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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761529 times)
pinarello
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January 26, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
 #24281

Would you people please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here?

+1

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January 26, 2014, 04:55:43 PM
 #24282

I had no idea that talking about the single most pressing and confirmed issue in science in the recent decades would open a can of worms.

I personally believe humans are radically altering the Earth's ecosphere and may well render this planet uninhabitable in a century or two, whether global warming is true or not.

Check this out:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540955/Beijing-clouded-smog-way-sunrise-watch-giant-commercial-screens-Tiananmen-Square.html

This is what happens when you pass a Clean Air Act in America and then buy your plastic trinkets from a country like China that has no such regulations.  I am easily convinced that things like massive Chinese coal consumption is causing global warming.

However, putting a cryptocoin in the middle of the political debate over global warming is stupid, unnecessary and almost certainly  counterproductive.  

Energy efficiency over Bitcoin is a valid point.  Saying switching to NXT is going to Save The World is a stretch.  We should not go there.

bitcoinpaul
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January 26, 2014, 04:55:47 PM
 #24283

Would you people please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here?

+1

^1
CIYAM
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January 26, 2014, 04:57:25 PM
 #24284

I tried to warn everyone...  Cry

Everyone has an opinion and I don't think it matters that much if people want to express that but for sure it won't help Nxt to get caught up in such issues.

The focus needs to be on the "tool" rather than "what it can be used for" - once the tool is in place there will be plenty of time for people to argue their causes.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
okaynow
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January 26, 2014, 04:57:51 PM
 #24285

So we have the votes issue. There are a few ideas here and if i'm following the discussion correctly the main two propositions are:
1 Nxt = 1 vote or 1 acc = 1 vote

To me the question between the two is somewhat loaded. Let me explain why:

To participate one needs an account, and an account has a minimum cost
1 acc = 1 Nxt(open acc) + 1 Nxt(register public key) = 2Nxt per account

      If 1 Nxt = 1 vote then
Code:
1acc(1Nxt)     = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice 
1acc(5Nxt)     = 5 votes    = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 5 voices
1acc(5milNxt)  = 5mil votes = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 5mil voices
What one can see from the above is that 1 Nxt = 1 vote is
 
Quote
  i) Completely contrary to decentralisation of power.
  ii) Favors account balance instead of community
 iii) Provides reasonable motive to hoard currency, effectively taking it out of circulation
      to the expense of the community.
  iv) Links voting power with ones' wealth instead of ones' opinion and willingness to participate
 
      If 1 acc = 1 vote then
Code:
1acc(1Nxt)     = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice
1acc(5Nxt)     = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice
1acc(5milNxt)  = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice
With the second method, 1acc = 1 vote we see the following
Quote
i) Decentralised voting power. One voice for each account regardless of account balance
 ii) Favors community outreach
iii) If one were to create vote puppets, he can do it at a minimum cost. But if he does he will
     kill 2Nxt with every account, thus provide profit for active nodes.
 iv) Allows for low treshold to actively participate, and strengthens community.
   

Seems to me that in an anonymous environment we cannot guarantee that one vote will
be one voice. I'm not convinced though that there are not other options, in fact there
have been some interesting opinions like account age. I believe there are options open.

My proposition is this:
Quote
To take part in a vote one would have to have an account that would meet the following requirements:

1) Is in existence at least 12-36 months BEFORE taking part in a vote and in that time to have AT LEAST
one transaction
. So it would have to be an active account that paid fees at least once.

2) Has a registered public key for AT LEAST 12-36 months before participating in a vote.

3) Has an alias registered AT LEAST 12-36 months before participating in a vote.

This would rise the cost of creating an account with voting ability to 3Nxt. If there is also
a cost of a message for the actual vote, then the cost for every voting account is 4Nxt.

with 1 voting acc at 4Nxt to participate we have the following:
Code:
1 acc  (1Nxt)  = 1 vote  = 3Nxt to create + 1Nxt to vote = 1 voice 3Nxt + 1 vote = 4Nnxt
1 acc  (5Nxt)  = 1 vote  = 3Nxt to create + 1nxt to vote = 1 voice 3Nxt + 1 vote = 4Nnxt
1 acc(5milNxt) = 1 vote  = 3Nxt to create + 1Nxt to vote = 1 voice 3Nxt + 1 vote = 4Nnxt

Still we can't be sure that everyone will behave. What we can do from here is to 
make it more expensive and less cost effective for an account with a large balance
trying to create voting puppets to rig the vote.

Quote
If 1acc(5mil) creates 5acc(1mil) to try to rig the vote, his vote would cost him
5acc (1milNxt) = 5 votes = 20Nxt to create + 5Nxt to vote = 1 voice 25Nxt
if 1acc(5milNxt) creates 10.000 vote puppets, let him go bankrupt and pay the fees.
Let the nodes collect the fees

This is my idea. NXT is bringing a whole new message to our society and we should
try to emphasize on making it more transparent. Giving voting power to a large wallet
will be a fatal blow to the foundations of NXT, as it is completely anti-social.

Sorry for the wall of text, but voting is a serious issue.
-Fo-
 
 

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davethetrousers
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January 26, 2014, 04:57:58 PM
 #24286

However, putting a cryptocoin in the middle of the political debate over global warming is stupid, unnecessary and almost certainly  counterproductive.  

Energy efficiency over Bitcoin is a valid point.  Saying switching to NXT is going to Save The World is a stretch.  We should not go there.

This is a rational position. We should leave it at that (for now Cool).


The focus needs to be on the "tool" rather than "what it can be used for" - once the tool is in place there will be plenty of time for people to argue their causes.

I see your point, but it's not completely convincing, because tools do have their biases. Nobody is going to design a knife and later on have a big discussion on how best to play tennis with it. Knives are biased towards cutting and slicing stuff by their very design.

I think you get the anology without me explicitly making it clear Wink

Uniqueorn
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January 26, 2014, 04:58:09 PM
 #24287

Please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here.


If people like you managed to accept that it is a matter of science and not a matter of politics, SURE.
All the more reason this world needs a technocracy more than anything. Too many idiots in power.

Also: no we are going to discuss this as it is also a part of our marketing strategy.
Just saying that something is "green" and "environmentally friendly" is just empty buzzwords without consequences.
The fact is that global warming is currently making millions of people refugees, it is a very pressing matter.
And the other truth is, if Bitcoin becomes the currency of the future it will contribute HUGELY to this. That is a GREAT selling point for NXT compared to just saying "it's green, but hey it doesn't really matter because there is a magical ecosystem on earth that isn't affected regardless of what happens Cheesy"
ChuckOne
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January 26, 2014, 04:59:07 PM
 #24288

One big issue with that distributed and anonymous voting system is:

Who is gonna enforce the outcome? Actually, nobody.

A great politician once said: Never make rule you cannot enforce.

So, this voting system only for gathering opinions.

UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.

the only reasonable VS would be if the Nxt network itself can enforce the outcome of a voting.
this would be like coding an AI -> it's impossible.

Coding an AI is not impossible.

But enforcing virtual issues in the real world can only be done by humans or robots controlled by Nxt.
Both alternatives are highly unlikely either because they aren't reliable (the humans) and might even be very dangerous (the robots).

The only way for the Nxt network to enforce something at all, it to control the distribution of the correct Nxt client.
smartwart
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January 26, 2014, 05:06:14 PM
 #24289

please anyone explain me why the voting system is needed?
give me one concrete example why it could be useful.


it is not needed, its just a feature.
VS can be used in same way as forum poll.
Dev's and administrators can collect opinions.
Assets are another example for using VS.
=> I think it becomes clear that we need different boundary conditions for different poll categories.
All in all it transfers the voting to the nxt network, creating fees and you have all polls in one scope.

NxT: 13574045486980287597
Uniqueorn
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January 26, 2014, 05:09:08 PM
 #24290

If people like you managed to accept that it is a matter of science and not a matter of politics, SURE.
All the more reason this world needs a technocracy more than anything. Too many idiots in power.

Oh boy... I hope you take it well when you actually decide to take a look at the meteorological data.   Cry

I have ;( A close friend of mine is actually PhDing in this subject.
And it just brings back the fact that everytime you pretend there is a scientific debate about this, you are telling me that EVERYONE who has a PhD, that is YEARS AND YEARS of studies and YEARS AND YEARS of experiments know less about this matter than you.
The damn ignorance and arrogance is just staggering and baffling.


I'm not trying to start a debate with ignorants over this, I've ran into way too many UFO hunters in my life to care to waste calories on that.

To me what matters is how NXT fits into it and NXT fits into it perfectly by reducing the emissions to virtually zero with a Raspberry Pi with solar panels.
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January 26, 2014, 05:11:38 PM
 #24291

UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.

Leave it with the opinion function. More could mean a disaster.

For now, yeah. The client distribution is for the future.

Quote
1 nxt = 1 voice is fine. Case solved. Now implement it!  Wink

Unfortunately, it is not.

If it is just the opinion function, then we could leave it well alone.
When you really want to gather the opinion of the network, you cannot rely on the 73 whales. BUT, you will always get the opinion of the 73. Nothing more. In the end, noone will ever use that voting system for a global view on things.
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January 26, 2014, 05:13:52 PM
 #24292

In the end, noone will ever use that voting system for a global view on things.

But... I though we agreed to take over the world..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTC_fD598A
 Grin

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January 26, 2014, 05:16:24 PM
 #24293

Please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here.


If people like you managed to accept that it is a matter of science and not a matter of politics, SURE.
All the more reason this world needs a technocracy more than anything. Too many idiots in power.

Also: no we are going to discuss this as it is also a part of our marketing strategy.
Just saying that something is "green" and "environmentally friendly" is just empty buzzwords without consequences.
The fact is that global warming is currently making millions of people refugees, it is a very pressing matter.
And the other truth is, if Bitcoin becomes the currency of the future it will contribute HUGELY to this. That is a GREAT selling point for NXT compared to just saying "it's green, but hey it doesn't really matter because there is a magical ecosystem on earth that isn't affected regardless of what happens Cheesy"

You're being condescending to a large part of the Nxt community, which is unhelpful in any discussion.  My opinion is that GW should be left out of Nxt marketing.  Discussing the fact that Nxt is energy efficient should be promoted though.
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January 26, 2014, 05:16:35 PM
 #24294

The damn ignorance and arrogance is just staggering and baffling.

I guess it is safe to assume that you don't have a good relationship with mirrors.   Cry

...that is me crying by the way...

Ugh every community has people like you. And it's clear you just want to generate drama and that is the last thing we need.
I am bringing up a scientific issue with over 97% consensus. EVERY meta-study conducted shows the exact same thing.

I bring it up as a marketing strategy for NXT and also because I genuinely give a fuck about these issues beyond just my own wallet.
But like I have already said a few times now: if you take a look at the math of Bitcoin and it's carbon footprint then you will see just how significant this is. There are a ton of articles about this out there. It's basically a free marketing chance.
But instead you want to discuss your ignorance, goddamn...
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January 26, 2014, 05:17:39 PM
 #24295

If people like you managed to accept that it is a matter of science and not a matter of politics, SURE.
All the more reason this world needs a technocracy more than anything. Too many idiots in power.

Oh boy... I hope you take it well when you actually decide to take a look at the meteorological data.   Cry

My best friend is meteorologist and he told me something different.
That aside though ... I don't think we should keep discussing this, even though I agree with Uniqueorn here.

From an OBJECTIVE marketing standpoint and the target audience we are trying to reach at this point in time, I agree that it would be unwise to take a stand on this topic which is obviously controversial among the target audience (as we've already seen in this thread).

The best middle ground is energy and cost efficient. I think we should leave it at that.
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January 26, 2014, 05:20:47 PM
 #24296

Conference Update #11

I spoke with the guys at Hive today. They have a pretty slick OSX wallet that is super easy to use. They are about to expand to android as well as looking for a colored coins type of implementation to accept all cryptos.

I spoke with them about our Asset Exchange/Colored coins feature and they are wanting to get in contact to figure out our release time frame as well as the possibilities of using Nxt for this.

****ACTION ITEM****

We need to see if we can get a possible date for implantation, which may just be some research, and put together some other info for them and get our devs in contact with them.
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January 26, 2014, 05:22:36 PM
 #24297

You're being condescending to a large part of the Nxt community, which is unhelpful in any discussion.  My opinion is that GW should be left out of Nxt marketing.  Discussing the fact that Nxt is energy efficient should be promoted though.

I am being condescending to those who are disrespectful to the people who have devoted their entire lifes to seek the truth and illuminate the public about this. Yes. I am 100% proud of being condescending towards those people.
This is not a matter of politics and opinions, this is a matter of life and death for MILLIONS of people in this world, today, not some projected dystopian future scenario. This is occuring today!

If you do not accept science as a GPS then wtf do you accept? Your own fantasy? Then you are a solipsist.


AND AGAIN: I AM NOT THE ONE who wanted drama. I am simply stating the current state of science and highlighting how we can gain a HUGE marketing advantage due to it.
If we send the math to different sci and tech magazines they will run a lot of stories comparing NXT to Bitcoin in the grand scheme of things.
If you google Bitcoin + emissions you will see that there are already hundreds of articles on this. How the fuck are we going to turn down that oppourtunity due to a few ignorants?

Are we going to become the CyberWallstreet? Devoid of morals and only caring about our own wallets? Am I the only one here who actually cares about NXTs potential to make a huge impact on the worlds economy and environment?
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January 26, 2014, 05:26:37 PM
 #24298


Are we going to become the CyberWallstreet? Devoid of morals and only caring about our own wallets? Am I the only one here who actually cares about NXTs potential to make a huge impact on the worlds economy and environment?

Dude.  Go to the second graph in this article, add lines plotting the levels of BTC and NXT electricity usage that you calculate ON THAT SCALE to show us the HUGE IMPACT switching to NXT from BTC is going to make, and return to us here with your updated graphic for us to use in our marketing materials.

http://randompolicy.blogspot.com/2010/11/iea-2010-world-energy-outlook.html
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January 26, 2014, 05:26:51 PM
 #24299

Please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here.

+100.
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January 26, 2014, 05:28:46 PM
 #24300


Are we going to become the CyberWallstreet? Devoid of morals and only caring about our own wallets? Am I the only one here who actually cares about NXTs potential to make a huge impact on the worlds economy and environment?

Dude.  Go to the second graph in this article, add lines plotting the levels of BTC and NXT electricity usage that you calculate ON THAT SCALE to show us the HUGE IMPACT switching to NXT from BTC is going to make, and return to us here with your updated graphic for us to use in our marketing materials.

http://randompolicy.blogspot.com/2010/11/iea-2010-world-energy-outlook.html


Someone already made a great post about this: https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,3188.0.html
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