[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[KS]

If Sebastian only had funds stuck in Weexchange(or if he is mostly interested in what happened to the rest(5870? BTC) of the  ~6256?(386/0,0617) BTC in weexchange) and not in Ukyo loan, with Weexchange beeing registered(?) in Australia the logical would be to send the letter to the Weexchange's adress in Australia and not directly to Ukyo even if Ukyo that has handled most of Weexchanges business is in the Usa and it's Graet that is in Australia.
Or maby it's just because it's simpler to handle a process within the same country as he's using an Australian lawyer.

There are actually 2 WeExchange companies. One in the US and one in Australia.

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[KS]

Ukyo have been writing on IRC within the last hour:

Code: (#bitfunder)

<Ukyo> ...

Those of you who we're not around for the pirateat40 implosion might not recognize what is going on here. Those of you who were should be feeling more than a twinge of unease in the pit of your stomach. Textbook scam delay tactic #653.

Or at least indistinguishable from such.

Not so easy to run when you have a family.

[jbreher]

Ukyo have been writing on IRC within the last hour:

Code: (#bitfunder)

<Ukyo> ...

Those of you who we're not around for the pirateat40 implosion might not recognize what is going on here. Those of you who were should be feeling more than a twinge of unease in the pit of your stomach. Textbook scam delay tactic #653.

Or at least indistinguishable from such.

Not so easy to run when you have a family.

As did pirate. Don't need to run, if you can keep your marks from taking any action by making vague useless public statements every several days. Just long enough for the indignation to dissipate, and let the ensuing Stockholm syndrome wash over everyone.

Hint: looks like you're defending him already.

[WeexUser]

Thats a good summary of things, I think you got that a few date's wrong thou:

from Ukyo's post the 4 nov
"In connection with BitFunder’s shut-down, please note the following points, which supplement the points outlined in BitFunder’s October 8, and October 11, 2013 notices:
* As of November 14, 2013, no BitFunder user will be able to enter into any new positions or sell positions on the BitFunder website.
* On December 2, 2013, bitcoin balances in the accounts of all users will be transferred to their WeExchange accounts."

I think 8 Oct not 8 July was when us-citizens needed to get verified but they were still allowed to keep trading for a while after that if they got verified and the final trade stop for all users on Bitfunder was the 14 Nov not the 4 Nov.

I copied most of the timeline from one of SebastianJu's posts but apparently introduced some errors 

Timeline:

• 2013-10-08 Bitfunder closed for us-residents and verification needed
• 2013-10-17 Weexchange withdraw problems was first reported. Withdraws remained "processing" / "Could not connect to 2nd stage server" errors. Bitcoind kept crashing, according to Ukyo. Withdraws occasionally worked but the error appeared more often.
• 2013-11-14 Bitfunder closed
• 2013-11-12 Ukyo claims he still does manual withdraws from Weexchange funds though its probably the last time.
• 2013-11-?? Legal issue started around here, according to Ukyo.
• 2013-11-16 Ukyo removed the deposit address from Weexchange.
• 2013-11-?? Danny from NeoBee got involved in fixing the issue.
• 2013-12-17 Weexchange claim portal opens, allowing users to withdraw 6.175%.
• 2013-12-29 Weexchange's bitcoind client is affected by the "block 277596" issue.
• 2013-12-30 Ukyo opens the ASICMiner claim portal.
• 2014-01-22 ActiveMining's CEO starts selling Ukyo's personal ActiveMining shares to recover what he is owed.

[thy]

If Sebastian only had funds stuck in Weexchange(or if he is mostly interested in what happened to the rest(5870? BTC) of the  ~6256?(386/0,0617) BTC in weexchange) and not in Ukyo loan, with Weexchange beeing registered(?) in Australia the logical would be to send the letter to the Weexchange's adress in Australia and not directly to Ukyo even if Ukyo that has handled most of Weexchanges business is in the Usa and it's Graet that is in Australia.
Or maby it's just because it's simpler to handle a process within the same country as he's using an Australian lawyer.

There are actually 2 WeExchange companies. One in the US and one in Australia.

Oh ok, that sounds a bit strange unless one of the two Weexchange companys is technically owned by the other, witch one were people that used Weexchange only to get BTC funds in and out of Bitfunder using, the Weexchange company in Usa or the one in Australia ?

[mgio]

Ukyo is just begging himself to be sued now.

I don't understand why he has said NOTHING in over 2 months now.

I've e-mailed him several times and he just stopped responding.

I'm willing to sign an NDA if it means he can share at least some of what is going on. Really, *anything* when it comes to the ukyo.loan funds.

Given that Ukyo still owes me about $150,000, it would definitely make sense for me to start talking to my lawyer.

Ukyo would have no option in that situation but to declare bankruptcy. He should at least be attempting to work with his creditors and coming up with some kind of plan to get at least some of his money back. He must realize we will not wait forever. I'm getting pretty pissed off.

[contactmike1]

Based on the chat log, id guess some three letter agency has siezed the funds. The puzzling piece is what type of siezure would require a gag order?  Perhaps dhs seized the funds and a nsl occurred to seize all the data.

It's fun speculating, right?  

[jbreher]

Based on the chat log, id guess some three letter agency has siezed the funds. The puzzling piece is what type of siezure would require a gag order?  Perhaps dhs seized the funds and a nsl occurred to seize all the data.

OK, perhaps there is a gag order in place. Let us posit this. However, in the US, the only gag orders where the target cannot divulge the existence of a gag order (at least to my knowledge) is an NSL. OK, let's posit there is an NSL in place. If so, do you really think DHS would allow the target of an NSL -- known to have access to $Millions -- to travel unchaperoned to Cyprus? Really? Can you say flight risk? Sure. I knew you could. Throw that red herring out.

If there was an NSL, the DHS would not have allowed Ukyo to fly to Cyprus. The NSL is (believed to be) the only type of gag order where the target is not allowed to divulge that a gag order is in place. Ukyo has not unambiguously divulged that there is a gag order in place.

My conclusion is that there is no gag order, and Ukyo is being coy on the point simply to cloud the issue, and try to build plausible deniability.

All to try to avoid we marks from coming to the most likely conclusion - which is that Ukyo has stolen $Millions from us.

[SebastianJu]

@Seb: why send a letter to Oz and not the States?

Weexchange is registered in australia primarely, as far as i know. And i guess using an american lawyer will be costlier than an australian one when he gets what amount it is about. At the end i only want information first since i dont believe sueing simply will yield any good result. weexchange and ukyo dont have money to be sued out of them.

[thy]

Ukyo is just begging himself to be sued now.

I don't understand why he has said NOTHING in over 2 months now.

I've e-mailed him several times and he just stopped responding.

I'm willing to sign an NDA if it means he can share at least some of what is going on. Really, *anything* when it comes to the ukyo.loan funds.

Given that Ukyo still owes me about $150,000, it would definitely make sense for me to start talking to my lawyer.

Ukyo would have no option in that situation but to declare bankruptcy. He should at least be attempting to work with his creditors and coming up with some kind of plan to get at least some of his money back. He must realize we will not wait forever. I'm getting pretty pissed off.

He clearly wouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for that small sum $150 000/250 btc, but i guess the legal system would then have to look at all the money he owes to people and if he's possible investments he claims to have done haven't started to produce enough bitcoins yet it may be problematic for him if they can't handle his assets wisely until they do bare fruit, then all people he owes bitcoins may end up getting back less than 100% back.

@Seb: why send a letter to Oz and not the States?

Weexchange is registered in australia primarely, as far as i know. And i guess using an american lawyer will be costlier than an australian one when he gets what amount it is about. At the end i only want information first since i dont believe sueing simply will yield any good result. weexchange and ukyo dont have money to be sued out of them.

He does clearly have some holdings worth some amount of bitcoins, the easiest ones is whats tied to a public bitcoinadress known to had the 232 000 activeminer shares at bitfunders closure that belonged to ukyo, that adress, 1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq also had other holdings:

ActiveMining    232,175    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
ADDICTION         3,927    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
BitPride            85,476    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
BTCINVEST            96    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
btcQuick      2,915,576    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
CRYPTO.LTC            2    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
DISCOVERY            10    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
FIAT.AUD                1    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
FIAT.USD               27    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Graet.Loan           979    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Kenilworth              25    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
LabRatMining          15    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
NEOBEE          116,667    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
RentalStarter      9,505    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
SatoshiPoker 4,000,000    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
TU.SILVER              11    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Ukyo.Loan          7,695    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq


So if we take the last known price when Bitfunder closed or a later price if they have traded later on other exchanges or for those that haven't traded open just the buyprice we would get the following(i did count on it a few weeks ago so there may be slightly different prices on the stocks actively traded on exchanges now)

                          per share    Btc total          stock current status
satouchipoker       0,00008000   320                private
NEOBEE               0.00400000   466,668           Havelock
RENTAL STARTER  0.00579000     55,03395       Havelock
Graet.Loan          0,01                9,79             when graet gets back on track
ActiveMining        0,0006-0,005 139,305-1106,0875 BF 0,0009 Last price  (Cryptotrade 0,005-0,0005/CS)
BTCQuick            0,00013?       379,02488        values will be payed back to shareholders in 6-12 months time
ADDICTION         0,007              27,489           private
BitPride              0,00000400       0,3419
PAYED OFF ukyo shares             76,95
tu.silver             0,0111              0,1221         Private usagi
LabRatMining      0,119                1,785
Kenilworth         0,00062-0,0018   0,0155         ?? maby havelock in the future
FIAT.USD          0,0012               0,0324
FIAT.AUD             ?                       ?
DISCOVERY       0,0074                0,074
CRYPTO.LTC      0,019                 0,038
BTCINVEST       0,1922              18,4512         Trade Fortress missing, some BTC from Kate/ciphermine holdings
====================================
Total around                           1495,1107 btc

and there have been some dividends after bitfunders closure.

                                 per share    btc total
dividend rentalstarter   0,00001310   0,1245155
dividend btcquick         0,00000008   0,23324608
dividend Addiction          ?           ?

Thats around 1500 btc for those holdings alone.
If Ukyo also had other accounts/public adresses with bitcoinstocks in them on Bitfunfer or stock holdings on other platforms like BTCT-CO i don't know but it seems very likely.
There has also been several threads on bitcointalk where people seems to connect A couple of transfers of ~5000-7000 btc on 2 occations to a mining company and a bitcoin mining hardware producer, whether they got things right when they traced the flow of bitcoins and it was in fact Ukyo buying shares off the open market in the mining company and/or buying mining hardware from the hardware producer i don't know, i guess only ukyo and the 2 company's can tell.

Clearly some positions would have to be sold off carefully, dumping shares on the market wouldn't do any good for the price Ukyo get's for the shares and other things thats not listed may take time to find a buyer at resonable prices and if he in fact has holdings in the mining company that has had some problems sofar those will at least start to generate some btc back now and if ukyo possibly have started to get miners in the 100's of TH they would resonable be producing a fair amount of BTC each day for him now then.

In Ukyo loan it's pretty simple math Ukyo owes people around (2000-76,95)*(1+(0,015*3,5))~2024 BTC
In the weexchange balance matter it's a bit harder to know as we don't know how much of it that belonged to ukyo and whether his and/or cryptosyprus balances was included in the 6.175%, but around (386/0,06175)-386 = 6251-386 = 5865 BTC

I really don't think it will be good for anyone if people started 20 different leagal processes agains Ukyo that would just mean more costs for all parts and less money left to those ukyo own money, ideally Ukyo, Graet and cryptocyprus would talk more openly about what is beeing done and if/what people can do to help Ukyo/Graet to get back on there feets and sort this out as fast as possible.

Well i guess the obvious would be if everyone in the bitcoin community would point one or more of there Bitcoin miners & Litecoin/scrypt miners to Graets Ozcoin pools https://ozcoin.net/ and https://lc.ozcoin.net/ ,there hashrate is a bit weak at the moment and i think Graet would need and appreciate all the help he could get and by helping Graet you would not only be helping Graet and Ukyo but also indirectly be helping the something like 200 people that loaned Graet and ukyo money in there loans and also be helping the unknown amount of people that have funds stuck in weexchange get there bitcoins back, witch in many cases would mean yourself to.

Maby someone that actually have got any information whatsoever outside of whats been said in the open on bitcointalk from Ukyo/Graet/cryptocyprus in this whole Ukyo loan/Graet Loan/Weexchange mess would care to share some light on what really is going on and not just claim they can't say anything either.

[KS]

...
Hint: looks like you're defending him already.

Or not.

[KS]

@Seb: why send a letter to Oz and not the States?

Weexchange is registered in australia primarely, as far as i know. And i guess using an american lawyer will be costlier than an australian one when he gets what amount it is about. At the end i only want information first since i dont believe sueing simply will yield any good result. weexchange and ukyo dont have money to be sued out of them.

There are 2 WeExchange companies. One is ran by Graet in Oz, with Ukyo onboard as well, the other is in Texas, owned only by Ukyo and, I presume, its purpose is mainly for running the servers, since, I presume, Ukyo is re-using some of his previous investments and companies for that very purpose (see the other threads).

There might be some equipment to seize there.

[kano]

The Aus company is a owned by the US company. Graet is the director of the Aus company and thus may well be in the same situation as the rest of us regarding the status of what Ukyo has done, however, as a director he may be held responsible for the actions of the Aus company ...

[KS]

The Aus company is a owned by the US company. Graet is the director of the Aus company and thus may well be in the same situation as the rest of us regarding the status of what Ukyo has done, however, as a director he may be held responsible for the actions of the Aus company ...

The share (just the one) is owned by Ukyo.

Here's the post from the 94% thread with the Australian doc:

WeExchange is a public company in Australia. There for the articles of incorporation are public knowledge and available to anyone.

Company name, ACN and ABN are posted on the contact us page.
https://www.weexchange.co/?page=helpcontact

A request from ASIC (Australian Securities and Investments Commission) produced the following report.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bza0Sx1iSRWqRVlNSm94YUtwSjQ/edit?usp=sharing

In WeEx US there is only Ukyo as director, whereas in WeEx AUS there is Ukyo and Graet. Ukyo being the sole shareholder in both cases.

[kano]

The Aus company is a owned by the US company. Graet is the director of the Aus company and thus may well be in the same situation as the rest of us regarding the status of what Ukyo has done, however, as a director he may be held responsible for the actions of the Aus company ...

The share (just the one) is owned by Ukyo.

Here's the post from the 94% thread with the Australian doc:

WeExchange is a public company in Australia. There for the articles of incorporation are public knowledge and available to anyone.

Company name, ACN and ABN are posted on the contact us page.
https://www.weexchange.co/?page=helpcontact

A request from ASIC (Australian Securities and Investments Commission) produced the following report.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bza0Sx1iSRWqRVlNSm94YUtwSjQ/edit?usp=sharing

In WeEx US there is only Ukyo as director, whereas in WeEx AUS there is Ukyo and Graet. Ukyo being the sole shareholder in both cases.

Hmm, well then if it isn't a case of the Aus company being owned by the US company, but simply that they are 2 independent companies owned by Ukyo, then pooling the funds of the two companies (since the funds are held in trust) is illegal. They should be held separately and dealt with separately.

I think this all means that when Ukyo stated he had an accountant when he set the companies up, he was outright lying.
The accountant would have pointed such things out ...

[KS]

Hmm, well then if it isn't a case of the Aus company being owned by the US company, but simply that they are 2 independent companies owned by Ukyo, then pooling the funds of the two companies (since the funds are held in trust) is illegal. They should be held separately and dealt with separately.

I think this all means that when Ukyo stated he had an accountant when he set the companies up, he was outright lying.
The accountant would have pointed such things out ...

Which funds are you referring to: company funds or customer funds? (BTC wallets?)

[SebastianJu]

In WeEx US there is only Ukyo as director, whereas in WeEx AUS there is Ukyo and Graet. Ukyo being the sole shareholder in both cases.

Hmm, well then if it isn't a case of the Aus company being owned by the US company, but simply that they are 2 independent companies owned by Ukyo, then pooling the funds of the two companies (since the funds are held in trust) is illegal. They should be held separately and dealt with separately.

I think this all means that when Ukyo stated he had an accountant when he set the companies up, he was outright lying.
The accountant would have pointed such things out ...

Of course it can be that only one company officially held the bitcoins and the other only had minor functions. Im not really sure where the advantage is in two companies. I mean you have to do the double amount of accounting, tax and so on.
I should consider taking Graet into my lawyer letters but i think i dont know his real name.

[SebastianJu]

Ukyo is just begging himself to be sued now.

I don't understand why he has said NOTHING in over 2 months now.

I've e-mailed him several times and he just stopped responding.

I'm willing to sign an NDA if it means he can share at least some of what is going on. Really, *anything* when it comes to the ukyo.loan funds.

Given that Ukyo still owes me about $150,000, it would definitely make sense for me to start talking to my lawyer.

Ukyo would have no option in that situation but to declare bankruptcy. He should at least be attempting to work with his creditors and coming up with some kind of plan to get at least some of his money back. He must realize we will not wait forever. I'm getting pretty pissed off.

He clearly wouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for that small sum $150 000/250 btc, but i guess the legal system would then have to look at all the money he owes to people and if he's possible investments he claims to have done haven't started to produce enough bitcoins yet it may be problematic for him if they can't handle his assets wisely until they do bare fruit, then all people he owes bitcoins may end up getting back less than 100% back.

@Seb: why send a letter to Oz and not the States?

Weexchange is registered in australia primarely, as far as i know. And i guess using an american lawyer will be costlier than an australian one when he gets what amount it is about. At the end i only want information first since i dont believe sueing simply will yield any good result. weexchange and ukyo dont have money to be sued out of them.

He does clearly have some holdings worth some amount of bitcoins, the easiest ones is whats tied to a public bitcoinadress known to had the 232 000 activeminer shares at bitfunders closure that belonged to ukyo, that adress, 1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq also had other holdings:

ActiveMining    232,175    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
ADDICTION         3,927    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
BitPride            85,476    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
BTCINVEST            96    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
btcQuick      2,915,576    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
CRYPTO.LTC            2    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
DISCOVERY            10    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
FIAT.AUD                1    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
FIAT.USD               27    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Graet.Loan           979    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Kenilworth              25    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
LabRatMining          15    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
NEOBEE          116,667    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
RentalStarter      9,505    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
SatoshiPoker 4,000,000    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
TU.SILVER              11    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Ukyo.Loan          7,695    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq


So if we take the last known price when Bitfunder closed or a later price if they have traded later on other exchanges or for those that haven't traded open just the buyprice we would get the following(i did count on it a few weeks ago so there may be slightly different prices on the stocks actively traded on exchanges now)

                          per share    Btc total          stock current status
satouchipoker       0,00008000   320                private
NEOBEE               0.00400000   466,668           Havelock
RENTAL STARTER  0.00579000     55,03395       Havelock
Graet.Loan          0,01                9,79             when graet gets back on track
ActiveMining        0,0006-0,005 139,305-1106,0875 BF 0,0009 Last price  (Cryptotrade 0,005-0,0005/CS)
BTCQuick            0,00013?       379,02488        values will be payed back to shareholders in 6-12 months time
ADDICTION         0,007              27,489           private
BitPride              0,00000400       0,3419
PAYED OFF ukyo shares             76,95
tu.silver             0,0111              0,1221         Private usagi
LabRatMining      0,119                1,785
Kenilworth         0,00062-0,0018   0,0155         ?? maby havelock in the future
FIAT.USD          0,0012               0,0324
FIAT.AUD             ?                       ?
DISCOVERY       0,0074                0,074
CRYPTO.LTC      0,019                 0,038
BTCINVEST       0,1922              18,4512         Trade Fortress missing, some BTC from Kate/ciphermine holdings
====================================
Total around                           1495,1107 btc

and there have been some dividends after bitfunders closure.

                                 per share    btc total
dividend rentalstarter   0,00001310   0,1245155
dividend btcquick         0,00000008   0,23324608
dividend Addiction          ?           ?

Thats around 1500 btc for those holdings alone.
If Ukyo also had other accounts/public adresses with bitcoinstocks in them on Bitfunfer or stock holdings on other platforms like BTCT-CO i don't know but it seems very likely.
There has also been several threads on bitcointalk where people seems to connect A couple of transfers of ~5000-7000 btc on 2 occations to a mining company and a bitcoin mining hardware producer, whether they got things right when they traced the flow of bitcoins and it was in fact Ukyo buying shares off the open market in the mining company and/or buying mining hardware from the hardware producer i don't know, i guess only ukyo and the 2 company's can tell.

Clearly some positions would have to be sold off carefully, dumping shares on the market wouldn't do any good for the price Ukyo get's for the shares and other things thats not listed may take time to find a buyer at resonable prices and if he in fact has holdings in the mining company that has had some problems sofar those will at least start to generate some btc back now and if ukyo possibly have started to get miners in the 100's of TH they would resonable be producing a fair amount of BTC each day for him now then.

In Ukyo loan it's pretty simple math Ukyo owes people around (2000-76,95)*(1+(0,015*3,5))~2024 BTC
In the weexchange balance matter it's a bit harder to know as we don't know how much of it that belonged to ukyo and whether his and/or cryptosyprus balances was included in the 6.175%, but around (386/0,06175)-386 = 6251-386 = 5865 BTC

I really don't think it will be good for anyone if people started 20 different leagal processes agains Ukyo that would just mean more costs for all parts and less money left to those ukyo own money, ideally Ukyo, Graet and cryptocyprus would talk more openly about what is beeing done and if/what people can do to help Ukyo/Graet to get back on there feets and sort this out as fast as possible.

Well i guess the obvious would be if everyone in the bitcoin community would point one or more of there Bitcoin miners & Litecoin/scrypt miners to Graets Ozcoin pools https://ozcoin.net/ and https://lc.ozcoin.net/ ,there hashrate is a bit weak at the moment and i think Graet would need and appreciate all the help he could get and by helping Graet you would not only be helping Graet and Ukyo but also indirectly be helping the something like 200 people that loaned Graet and ukyo money in there loans and also be helping the unknown amount of people that have funds stuck in weexchange get there bitcoins back, witch in many cases would mean yourself to.

Maby someone that actually have got any information whatsoever outside of whats been said in the open on bitcointalk from Ukyo/Graet/cryptocyprus in this whole Ukyo loan/Graet Loan/Weexchange mess would care to share some light on what really is going on and not just claim they can't say anything either.

Why should ukyo own shares of its own loan? That doesnt make sense. Where do you get that this address and the attached shares is ukyo's?
Ukyo wanted to sell his ActM Shares. So i dont see that he would own shares, that could be seen by anyone, and wouldnt try to sell them to pay back some of the debts.

[jbreher]

I should consider taking Graet into my lawyer letters but i think i dont know his real name.

Graeme Tee

https://www.facebook.com/graeme.tee.9

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bza0Sx1iSRWqYVRiMkRaLVlrcFE

[thy]

Ukyo is just begging himself to be sued now.

I don't understand why he has said NOTHING in over 2 months now.

I've e-mailed him several times and he just stopped responding.

I'm willing to sign an NDA if it means he can share at least some of what is going on. Really, *anything* when it comes to the ukyo.loan funds.

Given that Ukyo still owes me about $150,000, it would definitely make sense for me to start talking to my lawyer.

Ukyo would have no option in that situation but to declare bankruptcy. He should at least be attempting to work with his creditors and coming up with some kind of plan to get at least some of his money back. He must realize we will not wait forever. I'm getting pretty pissed off.

He clearly wouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for that small sum $150 000/250 btc, but i guess the legal system would then have to look at all the money he owes to people and if he's possible investments he claims to have done haven't started to produce enough bitcoins yet it may be problematic for him if they can't handle his assets wisely until they do bare fruit, then all people he owes bitcoins may end up getting back less than 100% back.

@Seb: why send a letter to Oz and not the States?

Weexchange is registered in australia primarely, as far as i know. And i guess using an american lawyer will be costlier than an australian one when he gets what amount it is about. At the end i only want information first since i dont believe sueing simply will yield any good result. weexchange and ukyo dont have money to be sued out of them.

He does clearly have some holdings worth some amount of bitcoins, the easiest ones is whats tied to a public bitcoinadress known to had the 232 000 activeminer shares at bitfunders closure that belonged to ukyo, that adress, 1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq also had other holdings:

ActiveMining    232,175    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
ADDICTION         3,927    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
BitPride            85,476    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
BTCINVEST            96    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
btcQuick      2,915,576    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
CRYPTO.LTC            2    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
DISCOVERY            10    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
FIAT.AUD                1    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
FIAT.USD               27    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Graet.Loan           979    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Kenilworth              25    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
LabRatMining          15    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
NEOBEE          116,667    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
RentalStarter      9,505    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
SatoshiPoker 4,000,000    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
TU.SILVER              11    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq
Ukyo.Loan          7,695    1Mn65Q9Xm6NBoPdF8ppS3AzgRLt92ZKtTq


So if we take the last known price when Bitfunder closed or a later price if they have traded later on other exchanges or for those that haven't traded open just the buyprice we would get the following(i did count on it a few weeks ago so there may be slightly different prices on the stocks actively traded on exchanges now)

                          per share    Btc total          stock current status
satouchipoker       0,00008000   320                private
NEOBEE               0.00400000   466,668           Havelock
RENTAL STARTER  0.00579000     55,03395       Havelock
Graet.Loan          0,01                9,79             when graet gets back on track
ActiveMining        0,0006-0,005 139,305-1106,0875 BF 0,0009 Last price  (Cryptotrade 0,005-0,0005/CS)
BTCQuick            0,00013?       379,02488        values will be payed back to shareholders in 6-12 months time
ADDICTION         0,007              27,489           private
BitPride              0,00000400       0,3419
PAYED OFF ukyo shares             76,95
tu.silver             0,0111              0,1221         Private usagi
LabRatMining      0,119                1,785
Kenilworth         0,00062-0,0018   0,0155         ?? maby havelock in the future
FIAT.USD          0,0012               0,0324
FIAT.AUD             ?                       ?
DISCOVERY       0,0074                0,074
CRYPTO.LTC      0,019                 0,038
BTCINVEST       0,1922              18,4512         Trade Fortress missing, some BTC from Kate/ciphermine holdings
====================================
Total around                           1495,1107 btc

and there have been some dividends after bitfunders closure.

                                 per share    btc total
dividend rentalstarter   0,00001310   0,1245155
dividend btcquick         0,00000008   0,23324608
dividend Addiction          ?           ?

Thats around 1500 btc for those holdings alone.
If Ukyo also had other accounts/public adresses with bitcoinstocks in them on Bitfunfer or stock holdings on other platforms like BTCT-CO i don't know but it seems very likely.
There has also been several threads on bitcointalk where people seems to connect A couple of transfers of ~5000-7000 btc on 2 occations to a mining company and a bitcoin mining hardware producer, whether they got things right when they traced the flow of bitcoins and it was in fact Ukyo buying shares off the open market in the mining company and/or buying mining hardware from the hardware producer i don't know, i guess only ukyo and the 2 company's can tell.

Clearly some positions would have to be sold off carefully, dumping shares on the market wouldn't do any good for the price Ukyo get's for the shares and other things thats not listed may take time to find a buyer at resonable prices and if he in fact has holdings in the mining company that has had some problems sofar those will at least start to generate some btc back now and if ukyo possibly have started to get miners in the 100's of TH they would resonable be producing a fair amount of BTC each day for him now then.

In Ukyo loan it's pretty simple math Ukyo owes people around (2000-76,95)*(1+(0,015*3,5))~2024 BTC
In the weexchange balance matter it's a bit harder to know as we don't know how much of it that belonged to ukyo and whether his and/or cryptosyprus balances was included in the 6.175%, but around (386/0,06175)-386 = 6251-386 = 5865 BTC

I really don't think it will be good for anyone if people started 20 different leagal processes agains Ukyo that would just mean more costs for all parts and less money left to those ukyo own money, ideally Ukyo, Graet and cryptocyprus would talk more openly about what is beeing done and if/what people can do to help Ukyo/Graet to get back on there feets and sort this out as fast as possible.

Well i guess the obvious would be if everyone in the bitcoin community would point one or more of there Bitcoin miners & Litecoin/scrypt miners to Graets Ozcoin pools https://ozcoin.net/ and https://lc.ozcoin.net/ ,there hashrate is a bit weak at the moment and i think Graet would need and appreciate all the help he could get and by helping Graet you would not only be helping Graet and Ukyo but also indirectly be helping the something like 200 people that loaned Graet and ukyo money in there loans and also be helping the unknown amount of people that have funds stuck in weexchange get there bitcoins back, witch in many cases would mean yourself to.

Maby someone that actually have got any information whatsoever outside of whats been said in the open on bitcointalk from Ukyo/Graet/cryptocyprus in this whole Ukyo loan/Graet Loan/Weexchange mess would care to share some light on what really is going on and not just claim they can't say anything either.

Why should ukyo own shares of its own loan? That doesnt make sense. Where do you get that this address and the attached shares is ukyo's?
Ukyo wanted to sell his ActM Shares. So i dont see that he would own shares, that could be seen by anyone, and wouldnt try to sell them to pay back some of the debts.

It does make sense that ukyo own shares in his own loan, he did do regular redeems of shares when people asked for it before the problems started on bitfunder and he probably bought back shares at under face value on the market when people dumped shares before the problems to and resold them at face value or higher price. Ukyo has also bought back some shares after the problems started.
If my memory serves me right there was also a gigantic buywall at low prices(think it was 150 000 or 200 000 shares at 0.005) when bitfunder started it's restriction and whind the site down, i can only imagine it was one of two people that was behind that buywall of 750-1000 btc value, either Ukyo or Cryptocyprus and there was at least on one occasions shares sold into that wall.  
So the share Ukyo has in his own loan in burnsides list is simply shares Ukyo has bought back, either as redeemed shares or on the market at low price, the shares didn't magically dissapear when he bought them back, there was always 200 000 shares out on the market after the full 200 000 shares had been issued and put on the market the first time, the share in Ukyo-loan in burnsides list do add up to the total of 200 000 witch is the correct amount that was out on the market, the list of Ukyo's holdings is from the list Burnside published on btct-tc over all asset-holders at bitfunder.

Ken slaughter claims to have sold Ukyo's ~232 000 shares in Activemining on Crypto-Trade when he dumped shares there, but that move was hardly legal, so technically Ken will probably have to tie those shares to ones he owned himself instead and Ukyo would still technically have his shares in Activemining left, but in any case i think the total amount they sold for when ken dumped them was at least over 116 btc and ken slaghter don't have bigger rights to those 116 btc's than any other people Ukyo owes money whether there's in the form of Ukyo loan or Weexchange asset-holder.

There could of course be other changes now to what Ukyo holds compared to when Burnsides list was made, but if Ukyo sold some of the assets on the list he should have around the equivalent amount of BTC instead so in that purpose it shouldent matter much whether he still holds the stock-assets in question or if it's in the form of BTC now, it's still an asset Ukyo has that is of a certain amount of BTC value that is greater than 0 however you count on it.