Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[suchmoon]

Oh, well now it's crystal clear, why didn't you just say that earlier...only minor detail left is to define levels of shitheadness. At what level of shitheadness should Article 111 (UA Impeachment) should be enacted (if ever) and at which you can just wipe your ass with the constitution because US cookies showed up on the streets? Yep, sounds like a totally legit democracy.

Yanukovich fled along with some members of his government. Rada passed a law declaring him unable to fulfill his duties and set a date to elect his replacement.

Impeachment is essentially a trial for a crime. Yanik would have been eligible for this process if he didn't run away. He could also veto the law if he didn't run away. He basically resigned by running away and abdicating his duties.

There are similar processes in other countries, whether explicitly in the law or implicitly via other tools (e.g. the ability of the legislative branch to set election dates). For example in the US there is an impeachment process and there is a separate process in the 25th amendment to remove an incapacitated president.

I'm sure you know all this, but if the story about Ukrainians being cookie addicts who elected a new Rada years before the 2014 events to orchestrate a cookie coup makes you feel better - carry on

[1714519757]

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[TwitchySeal]

Who would think that NATO expansion would provoke Russia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A--57cFU5zM

You've got it backwards.  Russia attacked Ukraine, then NATO expanded.  

[Kavelj22]

After Putin succeeded in annexing Ukrainian regions and holding a referendum in them, there are reports in the pro-Ukrainian media saying that the Ukrainian army succeeded in retaking large parts of these regions. This was accompanied by silence from the Russian side to comment on the matter.
Is it possible that the news is true or is it only for media consumption as the two parties are accustomed to doing?

The recent events showed a shift in the course of the war, and it seems that what Russia called the military operation to protect minorities in Ukraine, became one of its most important goals to bring down the political regime in Ukraine.

[tvbcof]

https://www.bitchute.com/video/h0w38GYbjgCj/

Could anyone still be surprise when the next thing the NaZiocons do to the civilian population in Donesk is chemical or biological?  It was a good move on population's new President's part to strongly suggest to at least get the kids to somewhere a little more safe.  Same with Kherson.

Something very bad has happened to the minds of those who have any power over the decision making processes driving 'Kiev'.  A giant abscess which has developed in earnest since the coup 2014.  The sooner it gets lanced, the better for everyone.

---

BTW, the Israeli folks did another piggy cartoon.  Not as good as the last one, but worth the 30 seconds to watch:  https://www.bitchute.com/video/I8jjDScCS1xA/

---

After Putin succeeded in annexing Ukrainian regions and holding a referendum in them, there are reports in the pro-Ukrainian media saying that the Ukrainian army succeeded in retaking large parts of these regions. This was accompanied by silence from the Russian side to comment on the matter.
...

I'm not especially 'from the Russian side', but I'll take a crack at an answer.  Whoever made the bolded assertion is a desperate liar.  Defense lines were set up at the border of said regions and are largely holding.  Bakhmud is part of 'the Donbas' and is being taken by the Russians for the first time (and Bakhmud is a stepping-stone to finally stopping pedal anti-personnel mines, willy-pete, etc, from being fired from Western hardware onto civilian populations in Donesk.)

The Ukrainians did win back some territory North of Kherson on the West of the Dnieper river.  This has turned into a killing field where a LOT of quasi-Ukrainian personnel and material met their ends. 10,000 assorted personnel some say.  Classic 'Mongolian defense' to guide the fight to times/locations where Russian techniques are more effective is my read.  I will say that the Ukrainians actually are pretty good in the woods...and it remains to be seen how much so in the ice.

[suchmoon]

After Putin succeeded in annexing Ukrainian regions and holding a referendum in them, there are reports in the pro-Ukrainian media saying that the Ukrainian army succeeded in retaking large parts of these regions. This was accompanied by silence from the Russian side to comment on the matter.
Is it possible that the news is true or is it only for media consumption as the two parties are accustomed to doing?

There isn't really much disagreement as to which territories are under Ukrainian or Russian control. See https://liveuamap.com for example.

Ukraine did take large parts of territory back. Also Russia never had control of some of the territories it claims to have annexed. Russian side wasn't really silent about it, although it used euphemisms - e.g. "regrouping" instead of calling it a loss, or a retreat.

[paxmao]

After Putin succeeded in annexing Ukrainian regions and holding a referendum in them, there are reports in the pro-Ukrainian media saying that the Ukrainian army succeeded in retaking large parts of these regions. This was accompanied by silence from the Russian side to comment on the matter.
Is it possible that the news is true or is it only for media consumption as the two parties are accustomed to doing?

The recent events showed a shift in the course of the war, and it seems that what Russia called the military operation to protect minorities in Ukraine, became one of its most important goals to bring down the political regime in Ukraine.

The illegal annexation has been so successful that Adolf Putin has signed a decree to install martial law in several RF oblasts. The Orc army is so successful that a number of oblasts that have border with the illegally occupied territories have now restrictions to travel, movement an massive control.

One would think that Adolf Putin did not take much of large bite, but it seems that even that little illegally taken territory is more than he can hope to defend.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/19/putin-martial-law-annexed-ukraine-regions/

Or maybe this is just for consumption.. sure.

[Veleor]

Oh, well now it's crystal clear, why didn't you just say that earlier...only minor detail left is to define levels of shitheadness. At what level of shitheadness should Article 111 (UA Impeachment) should be enacted (if ever) and at which you can just wipe your ass with the constitution because US cookies showed up on the streets? Yep, sounds like a totally legit democracy.

Yanukovich fled along with some members of his government. Rada passed a law declaring him unable to fulfill his duties and set a date to elect his replacement.
Impeachment is essentially a trial for a crime. Yanik would have been eligible for this process if he didn't run away. He could also veto the law if he didn't run away. He basically resigned by running away and abdicating his duties. <...>

There are opinions that the removal of Yanukovych from the post of Ukrainian president in February 2014 was unconstitutional.

Code:

24/06/2015 | Updated June 23, 2016
*** The procedure of impeachment ***
According to the procedure of impeachment defined in Article 111, the Rada must establish
a special investigatory commission to formulate charges against the president,
seek evidence to justify the charges and come to conclusions about the president's guilt for the Rada to consider.
To find the president guilty, at least two-thirds of Rada members must assent.
Prior to a final vote to remove the president from power, the procedure requires
• the Constitutional Court of Ukraine to review the case and certify that the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration has been followed, and
• the Supreme Court of Ukraine to certify that the acts of which the President is accused are worthy of impeachment.
To remove the president from power, at least three-quarters of Rada members must assent.
<!> The Rada didn't make any pretence of following this procedure. No investigatory commission was established and the Courts were not involved.
On 22 February 2014, the Rada simply passed a resolution purporting to remove Yanukovych from office in accordance with the Constitution.
<...>
The British Government lied to Parliament in saying that Yanukovych was impeached and removed from power in accordance with the Constitution.
That the British Government lied is confirmed by President Poroshenko's action in referring this law to the
Constitutional Court on the grounds that Yanukovych wasn't impeached in accordance with the Constitution.

Source: HuffPost

The illegal annexation <...>

What is legal annexation?


Curious prediction from George Soros about NATO and manpower from Eastern Europe

Code:

"Toward a New World Order: The Future of NATO"
*** November 1, 1993
Incidentally, the combination of manpower from Eastern Europe with the technical capabilities of NATO
would greatly enhance the military potential of the Partnership because it would reduce the risk of body bags for NATO,
which is the main constraint on their willingness to act. This is a viable alternative to the looming world disorder.

Source: georgesoros.com

[LTU_btc]

Putin today announced about martial law in occupied regions of Ukraine - Donbas, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhia.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/19/putin-declares-martial-law-in-annexed-regions-of-ukraine
But how you can declare martial law there when it's aready been declared by Ukraine on 24th February?
And does it means that Russians will be allowed to call it war, or it's still "special military operation"?

After Putin succeeded in annexing Ukrainian regions and holding a referendum in them, there are reports in the pro-Ukrainian media saying that the Ukrainian army succeeded in retaking large parts of these regions. This was accompanied by silence from the Russian side to comment on the matter.
Is it possible that the news is true or is it only for media consumption as the two parties are accustomed to doing?

The recent events showed a shift in the course of the war, and it seems that what Russia called the military operation to protect minorities in Ukraine, became one of its most important goals to bring down the political regime in Ukraine.

Actually, none of annexed regions isn't fully controlled by Russia. Like Zaporizhia Oblast, they don't have control of capital of region - Zaporizhia city. Even Luhansk oblast isn't fully controlled by them, few villages is controlled by Ukraine.
And Russia aren't silent about Ukraine's counteroffensive. Offcourse, they won't tell what's really happening, they are using excuses like regrouping of troops.
You can follow realtime information in front on maps like https://www.deepstatemap.live/ or https://liveuamap.com/
They also announced about evacuation from Kherson to left bank of Dniepr river:
https://www.dw.com/en/russia-ukraine-updates-moscow-begins-evacuation-from-kherson/a-63484112
No panic, keep calm, like they like to say.

[BADecker]

Putin today announced about martial law in occupied regions of Ukraine - Donbas, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhia.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/19/putin-declares-martial-law-in-annexed-regions-of-ukraine
But how you can declare martial law there when it's aready been declared by Ukraine on 24th February?
And does it means that Russians will be allowed to call it war, or it's still "special military operation"?

After Putin succeeded in annexing Ukrainian regions and holding a referendum in them, there are reports in the pro-Ukrainian media saying that the Ukrainian army succeeded in retaking large parts of these regions. This was accompanied by silence from the Russian side to comment on the matter.
Is it possible that the news is true or is it only for media consumption as the two parties are accustomed to doing?

The recent events showed a shift in the course of the war, and it seems that what Russia called the military operation to protect minorities in Ukraine, became one of its most important goals to bring down the political regime in Ukraine.

Actually, none of annexed regions isn't fully controlled by Russia. Like Zaporizhia Oblast, they don't have control of capital of region - Zaporizhia city. Even Luhansk oblast isn't fully controlled by them, few villages is controlled by Ukraine.
And Russia aren't silent about Ukraine's counteroffensive. Offcourse, they won't tell what's really happening, they are using excuses like regrouping of troops.
You can follow realtime information in front on maps like https://www.deepstatemap.live/ or https://liveuamap.com/
They also announced about evacuation from Kherson to left bank of Dniepr river:
https://www.dw.com/en/russia-ukraine-updates-moscow-begins-evacuation-from-kherson/a-63484112
No panic, keep calm, like they like to say.

Just like Ukraine doesn't control Kiev. If it did, the two Russian strikes a week apart a week ago wouldn't have caused the blackouts over half of Ukraine. And that was before the Belarus and Russian militaries started congregating at the border as they have been.

Showdown in Russia's Kherson Region

...

The empire of lies and forever wars — along with its Western vassals and Ukrainian Nazis — will try to damage or destroy the area's vital infrastructure and cause large-scale numbers of civilian casualties.

The vast majority of regime troops involved "have not been properly trained," Surovikin explained, adding:

Involuntarily sent to frontline positions — and lacking the will to fight as cannon fodder — Nazified "barrier squads" are deployed to their rear with orders to "shoot anyone trying to leave…battlefield" positions.

Indifferent to the lives and well-being of its conscripts, "hundreds" of regime casualties occur daily.

Russia operates by a higher standard.

...

On Tuesday, Belarusian Defense Minister, Viktor Khrenin, said the following:

"Belarus and Russia (are focusing on) collective security."

"The (newly created) joint military task force of the Republic of Belarus and Russian Federation is being deployed for armed defense of the Union State."

"The task force is a complex system  of many components."

Included are "management bodies of various levels, troops and various support systems."

"Since the decision to set up the task force was taken in the Union State, various options for its deployment and use have been worked out."

"Today, based on the evolving situation, we are acting step by step, implementing certain measures to get the task force ready to respond to emerging challenges and threats."

...

[paxmao]

...

The illegal annexation <...>

What is legal annexation?

...

Somehow I should not be surprised that you ask, yet I am.

Legal annexation could potentially be if, after a long period of peace, a referendum with all guarantees, time to put forward arguments against and in favour and abundant international observers is held among the inhabitants of a region a a majority decides that they want to join a different state.

It is much better understood if one thinks of a referendum of independence of which there are a few cases.

[BADecker]

If the US and Nato happen to be strong enough, they will overcome the Russian ground military in Ukraine and elsewhere. There will be one thing that Russia will have left to do. Hopefully the Nato nations will be smart enough to stop the US before it's too late.


Russia warns WWIII is all but GUARANTEED if Ukraine’s Western allies continue to meddle in ongoing conflict

Russia has issued a grim warning to the rest of the world: World War III is all but guaranteed if Ukraine’s Western allies continue to meddle in their ongoing conflict. Specifically, a top Kremlin official threatened worldwide destruction should NATO approve Ukraine’s request to join the organization.

“Kyiv is well aware that such a step would mean a guaranteed escalation to a World War III,” said Alexander Venediktov, the deputy secretary of Russia’s Security Council. (Related: Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko warns World War III is about to begin.)

Venediktov claimed that the West is always making threats of a possible nuclear war.

“Russian officials have never voiced a threat to use any weapons of mass destruction. Meanwhile, in Europe, some politicians openly call for such actions, even a number of politicians in the EU [European Union] do not conceal and do not rule out the possibility of using weapons of mass destruction against Russia,” Venediktov said.

The warning came a day after a senior NATO official announced that a Russian nuclear strike would undoubtedly cause a “physical response” from Ukraine’s allies. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said the United States is “committed to defending every inch of NATO’s territory.”

NATO started its annual exercise to test nuclear deterrence capabilities in Europe on Monday, Oct. 17, with the aid of 14 of its 30 member countries. The routine exercise, this year named “Steadfast Noon,” will run until October 30.
Brighteon.TV

Venediktov: Nuclear war will be catastrophic for all mankind

...

[Veleor]

<...>

Russia has issued a grim warning to the rest of the world: World War III is all but guaranteed if Ukraine’s Western allies continue to meddle in their ongoing conflict. Specifically, a top Kremlin official threatened worldwide destruction should NATO approve Ukraine’s request to join the organization. <...>

Of course, the threat of a nuclear conflict should not be underestimated, but I do not think that there are suicide bombers in the Kremlin or the Pentagon who are ready to destroy themselves and the whole world in a fiery hell. And even if there are such rabid psychopaths in the highest positions, they are more likely to be neutralized by people from their environment who want to live. However, while European leaders are now methodically killing the economies of their states and escalating the conflict more and more at the instigation of the USA, the confidence that a global war between East and West can be avoided is fading before our eyes.


paxmao, when you describe the concept of "legal annexation", what relevant international legal documents did you follow so that I could also get acquainted with them?

In the course of your comment, I had a few questions. If you don't mind, please answer them. I have put my questions in brackets in your quote.

Legal annexation could potentially be if, after a long period of peace (How many months or years exactly?), a referendum with all guarantees (What are these guarantees and who provides them?), time to put forward arguments against and in favour (Who chooses such time?) and abundant international observers (How many observers should be there and who should appoint them?) is held among the inhabitants of a region a a majority decides that they want to join a different state.

According to the definition of "annexations" which I found, they are illegal.

Code:

<...>F.  Evaluation
38  Under present international law, annexations are illegal since they are incompatible with the most fundamental rule
on the prohibition of any threat or use of force. As such, they do not result in a lawful title to territory. All States are
under a legal obligation not to recognize annexations and their consequences as lawful. They may, however, give some
de facto recognition to unlawful annexations in order to accommodate adequately the needs of the inhabitants of the
annexed territory. There are good reasons to consider the prohibition of annexations and the obligation not to recognize
them and their consequences as lawful as rules of customary international law with the rank of ius cogens.

Links:
http://www.anamnesis.info/node/624
https://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e1376

It is much better understood if one thinks of a referendum of independence of which there are a few cases.

Regarding referendums, there is an interesting post with some historical data confirming that the countries of the so-called collective West (led by the US and UK) are ready to recognize or not recognize the results of referendums, only when they get benefits from it.


Source in Russian

* Updated quote from Encyclopedia of Public International Law on Annexation

[BADecker]

<...>

Russia has issued a grim warning to the rest of the world: World War III is all but guaranteed if Ukraine’s Western allies continue to meddle in their ongoing conflict. Specifically, a top Kremlin official threatened worldwide destruction should NATO approve Ukraine’s request to join the organization. <...>

Of course, the threat of a nuclear conflict should not be underestimated, but I do not think that there are suicide bombers in the Kremlin or the Pentagon who are ready to destroy themselves and the whole world in a fiery hell. And even if there are such rabid psychopaths in the highest positions, they are more likely to be neutralized by people from their environment who want to live. However, while European leaders are now methodically killing the economies of their states and escalating the conflict more and more at the instigation of the USA, the confidence that a global war between East and West can be avoided is fading before our eyes.

Russia used suicide drones in the last Kiev attack.

If you are talking about pushing the button that launches the nuke missiles when Putin orders it, do you really think every soldier in the nuke department will be against Putin? They are soldiers, and they think they are saving Russia from US nukes by pushing the button. They will push the launch buttons, or their commanding officers will.

Death to European economies is being countered as we speak. The EU governments are using black markets to get what Russia is selling. That's why the US blew up the pipelines for gas. Some of the EU nations are going back to coal and atomic energy. It will take a while, but the EU will save itself even without Russia. But Russian products are easier, so the EU might turn against the US.

The point is this. The turmoil in all this thinking is weakening the US dollar control worldwide. Maybe the Elite of the world want that to happen, or maybe they don't. But they will figure out other methods to remain elite, if the US dollar fails, or if the BRICS new money comes into being, or whatever money.

[suchmoon]

Regarding referendums, there is an interesting post with some historical data confirming that the countries of the so-called collective West (led by the US and UK) are ready to recognize or not recognize the results of referendums, only when they get benefits from it.

Seems fake. USSR constitution allowed secession and did not specify any requirements (like a referendum). So technically member states could secede in any manner lawful in said states.

Article 72. Each Union Republic shall retain the right freely to secede from the USSR.

That's it. That's the whole article on the subject. It was predicated on the obvious (at the time) fact that no one in their right mind would attempt to coerce any of the republics to secede and the article was just for show, not unlike human rights guarantees and other parts of the constitution.

AFAIK Yugoslavia had something similar.

[BADecker]

Regarding referendums, there is an interesting post with some historical data confirming that the countries of the so-called collective West (led by the US and UK) are ready to recognize or not recognize the results of referendums, only when they get benefits from it.

Seems fake. USSR constitution allowed secession and did not specify any requirements (like a referendum). So technically member states could secede in any manner lawful in said states.

Article 72. Each Union Republic shall retain the right freely to secede from the USSR.

That's it. That's the whole article on the subject. It was predicated on the obvious (at the time) fact that no one in their right mind would attempt to coerce any of the republics to secede and the article was just for show, not unlike human rights guarantees and other parts of the constitution.

AFAIK Yugoslavia had something similar.

Is there any wording in Article 72 that allows a foreign country to take over a country by coups, just so the foreign country can use the country they took over just to conquer another country?

There is no clear understanding of what the people of Ukraine think. But there is clear understanding that their government was taken over by one or more US coups.

Kinds messes with the meaning and intent of Article 72, right?

[suchmoon]

Is there any wording in Article 72 that allows a foreign country to take over a country by coups, just so the foreign country can use the country they took over just to conquer another country?

There is no clear understanding of what the people of Ukraine think. But there is clear understanding that their government was taken over by one or more US coups.

Kinds messes with the meaning and intent of Article 72, right?

Apples and cucumbers, my friend. Next time try some reading maybe? If you can't read in English, here is the original:

https://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/cnst1977.htm#iii

[BADecker]

Is there any wording in Article 72 that allows a foreign country to take over a country by coups, just so the foreign country can use the country they took over just to conquer another country?

There is no clear understanding of what the people of Ukraine think. But there is clear understanding that their government was taken over by one or more US coups.

Kinds messes with the meaning and intent of Article 72, right?

Apples and cucumbers, my friend. Next time try some reading maybe? If you can't read in English, here is the original:

https://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/cnst1977.htm#iii

The USSR doesn't even exist. How is anybody going to fulfill it these days except by new agreement? So, why even bring it up?

[suchmoon]

The USSR doesn't even exist. How is anybody going to fulfill it these days except by new agreement? So, why even bring it up?

I brought it up because I was responding to some BS about post-USSR referendums.

As I said, you may want to try reading what you're replying to, unless your intent is to be an utter dolt.

[Branko]

Following you argument, who in their right would try to stop NATO on a battlefield. When you get to war like this is because you have already failed in using soft power.
 

Its impossible to win using soft power when other side own world money printing machine

Who would think that NATO expansion would provoke Russia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A--57cFU5zM

You've got it backwards.  Russia attacked Ukraine, then NATO expanded.  

Really? I thought many Warsaw Pact countries joined way before that

[be.open]

<...>

Russia has issued a grim warning to the rest of the world: World War III is all but guaranteed if Ukraine’s Western allies continue to meddle in their ongoing conflict. Specifically, a top Kremlin official threatened worldwide destruction should NATO approve Ukraine’s request to join the organization. <...>

Of course, the threat of a nuclear conflict should not be underestimated, but I do not think that there are suicide bombers in the Kremlin or the Pentagon who are ready to destroy themselves and the whole world in a fiery hell. And even if there are such rabid psychopaths in the highest positions, they are more likely to be neutralized by people from their environment who want to live. However, while European leaders are now methodically killing the economies of their states and escalating the conflict more and more at the instigation of the USA, the confidence that a global war between East and West can be avoided is fading before our eyes.

There is no reason for Russia to use tactical nuclear weapons as part of a special operation in Ukraine, all speculation about this is groundless. The possibilities of conventional weapons are far from being exhausted. However, the situation is developing in such a way that the military defeat of Ukraine seems to be an unacceptable scenario for the development of events for the United States and NATO. And for Russia, a military defeat of Russia is unacceptable. Under such conditions, the probability of an attempt to cut the tightening Gordian knot with a strategic nuclear strike is higher than zero. I think Russia's numerous threats about possible strikes on decision-making centers are not "the last Chinese warning" and are not directed at Kyiv at all, but at Washington and London. I see one of the most realistic scenarios for such a strike in the combat use of Poseidon nuclear drones. One Poseidon of half power is enough to wash away London and all of England with a radioactive tsunami. Four full-power Poseidons (two from the Atlantic and two from the Pacific) are enough to wash away Washington, New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco and create a deserted coastal zone 500 km deep on both coasts of the United States. After that, apparently, a mutual exchange of missile strikes between Russia and the United States and a test of the combat capability of their missile defense systems will begin. The chances of Russia in the post-apocalypse world, in my opinion, are higher than the chances of the United States, primarily for geographical reasons (vulnerability to strikes from the ocean), and secondly for technical reasons (the United States has no effective countermeasures against Poseidon, plus Russia has a hypersonic weapons and the overall advantage of delivery vehicles, plus, in my opinion, the missile defense system in Russia is more effective than the missile defense system in the United States). But the main beneficiary of such a scenario would likely be China (if the conflict in Taiwan does not erupt before the conflict in Ukraine enters a critical phase).