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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1957901 times)
cypherdoc
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June 07, 2015, 11:06:26 PM
 #25921

every attribute you seem to have, he seems to have.  every attribute he seems to have, you seem to have.

His left eye was losing vision. My right eye is 90% blinded. Whoops.

This is really comical. Are you under stress because of the court case? You are acting strange.

I suggested you get on Skype so you can see me on web cam. But you refused.

pm'd

Next day. I will sleep.

i'm not interested in talking.  one quick glance to verify you're not Armstrong.

I don't have Skype installed at this location. I have to travel to other location.

I believe you are interested in constructing evidence to build some civil suit against me.

"i need to sleep", whimper, whimper.  "i need to travel to another location", whimper, whimper.

ROFLMAO! Cheesy  what a jackass.
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June 07, 2015, 11:10:32 PM
 #25922

every attribute you seem to have, he seems to have.  every attribute he seems to have, you seem to have.

His left eye was losing vision. My right eye is 90% blinded. Whoops.

This is really comical. Are you under stress because of the court case? You are acting strange.

I suggested you get on Skype so you can see me on web cam. But you refused.

pm'd

Next day. I will sleep.

i'm not interested in talking.  one quick glance to verify you're not Armstrong.

I don't have Skype installed at this location. I have to travel to other location.

I believe you are interested in constructing evidence to build some civil suit against me.

"i need to sleep", whimper, whimper.  "i need to travel to another location", whimper, whimper.

ROFLMAO! Cheesy  what a jackass.

TPTB_need_war, he may be able to check out your eye Wink

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cypherdoc
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June 07, 2015, 11:12:46 PM
 #25923

every attribute you seem to have, he seems to have.  every attribute he seems to have, you seem to have.

His left eye was losing vision. My right eye is 90% blinded. Whoops.

This is really comical. Are you under stress because of the court case? You are acting strange.

I suggested you get on Skype so you can see me on web cam. But you refused.

pm'd

Next day. I will sleep.

i'm not interested in talking.  one quick glance to verify you're not Armstrong.

I don't have Skype installed at this location. I have to travel to other location.

I believe you are interested in constructing evidence to build some civil suit against me.

"i need to sleep", whimper, whimper.  "i need to travel to another location", whimper, whimper.

ROFLMAO! Cheesy  what a jackass.

TPTB_need_war, he may be able to check out your eye Wink

"but he may construct a civil lawsuit against me", whimper, whimper.  "oh wait, i'm in the Phillipines!  or am i?", whimper, whimper.
cypherdoc
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June 07, 2015, 11:23:51 PM
 #25924

but i don't think you are a programmer.  i think you're Armstrong.

You are losing your sanity dude. It is really pitiful to watch you go on this delusional tirade. Me not a programmer, hahaha.

Btw, Armstrong is a very skilled programmer.

there you go again.

every attribute you seem to have, he seems to have.  every attribute he seems to have, you seem to have.

Martin Armstrong ' s  writing typically includes numerous spelling and grammatical errors that we don't see with Anonymint et AL.  MA'S speech and writing are patterned very much the same, while very unlike Anonymint's  consistent writing style.  I try not to stick my oar into this swirling pool of egos and  childish arguments but sometimes I guess I like to waste time too!

that's possible altho from what i recall those grammatical problems were confined to the time when he was in prison.  remember, he was beat up, probably malnourished, mentally ill, and who knows, maybe faking mistakes to make his condition appear worse for when he appealed.  
explorer
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June 07, 2015, 11:25:42 PM
 #25925

but i don't think you are a programmer.  i think you're Armstrong.

You are losing your sanity dude. It is really pitiful to watch you go on this delusional tirade. Me not a programmer, hahaha.

Btw, Armstrong is a very skilled programmer.

there you go again.

every attribute you seem to have, he seems to have.  every attribute he seems to have, you seem to have.

Martin Armstrong ' s  writing typically includes numerous spelling and grammatical errors that we don't see with Anonymint et AL.  MA'S speech and writing are patterned very much the same, while very unlike Anonymint's  consistent writing style.  I try not to stick my oar into this swirling pool of egos and  childish arguments but sometimes I guess I like to waste time too!

that's possible altho from what i recall those grammatical problems were confined to the time when he was in prison.  remember, he was beat up, probably malnourished, mentally ill, and who knows, maybe faking mistakes to make his condition appear worse for when he appealed.  

No, to this day, reading his blog makes me cringe. 
marcus_of_augustus
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June 07, 2015, 11:34:13 PM
 #25926

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.

cypherdoc
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June 07, 2015, 11:38:28 PM
 #25927

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.

TPTB dev goes down with a whimper and right on time, MOA dev shows up throwing hand grenades.

anyone see the pattern i've already pointed out?  but it's ok, there are plenty of excellent devs with the right vision.
vokain
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June 07, 2015, 11:44:21 PM
 #25928

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.

TPTB dev goes down with a whimper and right on time, MOA dev shows up throwing hand grenades.

anyone see the pattern i've already pointed out?  but it's ok, there are plenty of excellent devs with the right vision.

What, the "if they're not with me, then they're against me" reality pattern?

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cypherdoc
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June 07, 2015, 11:49:27 PM
 #25929

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.

TPTB dev goes down with a whimper and right on time, MOA dev shows up throwing hand grenades.

anyone see the pattern i've already pointed out?  but it's ok, there are plenty of excellent devs with the right vision.

What, the "if they're not with me, then they're against me" reality pattern?

it's not "with me".  it's with Gavin.  yes, i trust Gavin way more than the other financially conflicted Blockstream devs. 

i'm not the one who came up with the block size increase idea.  it's a recommendation from the only guy who could have got us here since Satoshi turned over the reins to him.  guys like gmax and luke were causing trouble long before this issue became a debate.
iCEBREAKER
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June 07, 2015, 11:52:26 PM
 #25930

Game over, Frap.doc.


FYI, Nick Szabo retweeted (and added to his favorites):
https://twitter.com/oleganza/status/605117508971053057
"@oleganza: If Bitcoin was ever competing with Paypal or Visa, it would not even start. It competes with gold and central banks."


Thus Saith The LORD.  Amen!

of course not.  as long as you continue to constrain it to 1MB.

Cypherdoc is correct.

Nick Szabo and Oleg Andreev are both wrong.

[further deranged babbling]


The point Szabo retweeted (and favorited) is that it's not possible for Bitcoin's volumes to approach Visa-scale just by using gigantic blocks.

We simply can't get there from here.  Simply super-sizing blocks is not true scaling.  We need side/tree/Lightening/alt chains to even plan the start of the long journey towards coming close to approaching in theory the subject of scaling to Visa+Paypal+gold+TBTF zombie bank levels.

Diverse/diffuse/defensible/resilient blockchains are not a substitute for specialized/proprietary/centralized/optimized real-time Visa-type retail POS systems or consumer friendly Paypal-style payment systems.

The Genesis Block mentions bailouts for TBTF banks.  It does not mention Visa or Paypal.

Szabo conceived of Bitcoin and Monero in the early 90s, so I think he knows what he's talking about in matters of e-cash.



Bitcoin is revolution, not yet another trendy new payment rail for impressing your yuppie friends at the hipster micro-roastery.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
justusranvier
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June 07, 2015, 11:52:49 PM
 #25931

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.
What are you, some kind of mafia enforcer?

Are you're saying that if anyone dares to question the #bitcoin-wizards they'll send their sockpuppets around to vandalize conversations as retaliation?
cypherdoc
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June 07, 2015, 11:57:18 PM
 #25932

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.
What are you, some kind of mafia enforcer?

Are you're saying that if anyone dares to question the #bitcoin-wizards they'll send their sockpuppets around to vandalize conversations as retaliation?

that'd be him.  MOA is an extremist.  the worst of the bunch.
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June 08, 2015, 12:05:35 AM
 #25933

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.

TPTB dev goes down with a whimper and right on time, MOA dev shows up throwing hand grenades.

anyone see the pattern i've already pointed out?  but it's ok, there are plenty of excellent devs with the right vision.

What, the "if they're not with me, then they're against me" reality pattern?

it's not "with me".  it's with Gavin.  yes, i trust Gavin way more than the other financially conflicted Blockstream devs. 

i'm not the one who came up with the block size increase idea.  it's a recommendation from the only guy who could have got us here since Satoshi turned over the reins to him.  guys like gmax and luke were causing trouble long before this issue became a debate.

Gregory Maxwell is Bitcoin core developer. He is author of  CoinJoin.

also

Type 2 hierarchical deterministic wallet

This wallet type is described in BIP 0032 and is fully implemented in TREZOR, Electrum and CarbonWallet. The seed is a random 128 bit value presented to the user as a 12 word mnemonic using common English words. The seed is used after 100,000 rounds of SHA256 to slow down attacks against weak user-chosen strings. [1].

The initial description and workings of this wallet type is credited to Gregory Maxwell.
=======
You cypherdoc are an anonymous troll. You are not in same league as Blockstream guys.
cypherdoc
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June 08, 2015, 12:06:45 AM
 #25934

Game over, Frap.doc.


FYI, Nick Szabo retweeted (and added to his favorites):
https://twitter.com/oleganza/status/605117508971053057
"@oleganza: If Bitcoin was ever competing with Paypal or Visa, it would not even start. It competes with gold and central banks."


Thus Saith The LORD.  Amen!

of course not.  as long as you continue to constrain it to 1MB.

Cypherdoc is correct.

Nick Szabo and Oleg Andreev are both wrong.

[further deranged babbling]


The point Szabo retweeted (and favorited) is that it's not possible for Bitcoin's volumes to approach Visa-scale just by using gigantic blocks.

no, no, we learned from the great programmer, TPTB, that he means the program will not run  Cheesy
Quote

We simply can't get there from here.  Simply super-sizing blocks is not true scaling.  We need side/tree/Lightening/alt chains to even plan the start of the long journey towards coming close to approaching in theory the subject of scaling to Visa+Paypal+gold+TBTF zombie bank levels.

Diverse/diffuse/defensible/resilient blockchains are not a substitute for specialized/proprietary/centralized/optimized real-time Visa-type retail POS systems or consumer friendly Paypal-style payment systems.

what matter for digital gold is that it's supply remains fixed but gets secured by widespread adoption across the planet.  everybody needs to use it to protect against gvts trying to stomp it out
Quote

The Genesis Block mentions bailouts for TBTF banks.  It does not mention Visa or Paypal.

"banks" were used as a broad term to encompass Visa/Paypal
Quote

Szabo conceived of Bitcoin and Monero in the early 90s, so I think he knows what he's talking about in matters of e-cash.

not really.  he created a piece that Satoshi joined with other pieces to form Bitcoin.
Quote

-
Bitcoin is revolution, not yet another trendy new payment rail for impressing your yuppie friends at the hipster micro-roastery.

it is a revolution.  but it needs to be widely adopted.
marcus_of_augustus
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June 08, 2015, 12:15:10 AM
 #25935

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.
What are you, some kind of mafia enforcer?

Are you're saying that if anyone dares to question the #bitcoin-wizards they'll send their sockpuppets around to vandalize conversations as retaliation?

Wanton character assassination, smearing, slander (libel) and sundry rat-bastard tactics are not "daring to question". Let's keep the debates honourable, civil and based on their merits and things will go along just fine. Merely an observation.

How's your closed source projects with Goldman Sachs alumni coming along btw Justus?

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June 08, 2015, 12:16:01 AM
 #25936

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.

TPTB dev goes down with a whimper and right on time, MOA dev shows up throwing hand grenades.

anyone see the pattern i've already pointed out?  but it's ok, there are plenty of excellent devs with the right vision.

What, the "if they're not with me, then they're against me" reality pattern?

it's not "with me".  it's with Gavin.  yes, i trust Gavin way more than the other financially conflicted Blockstream devs. 

i'm not the one who came up with the block size increase idea.  it's a recommendation from the only guy who could have got us here since Satoshi turned over the reins to him.  guys like gmax and luke were causing trouble long before this issue became a debate.

Gregory Maxwell is Bitcoin core developer. He is author of  CoinJoin.

also

Type 2 hierarchical deterministic wallet

This wallet type is described in BIP 0032 and is fully implemented in TREZOR, Electrum and CarbonWallet. The seed is a random 128 bit value presented to the user as a 12 word mnemonic using common English words. The seed is used after 100,000 rounds of SHA256 to slow down attacks against weak user-chosen strings. [1].

The initial description and workings of this wallet type is credited to Gregory Maxwell.
=======
You cypherdoc are an anonymous troll. You are not in same league as Blockstream guys.

hey, i'm just following the Chief Scientist.  he's telling me to upgrade to XT.  no one's forcing you to follow this thread. Cheesy
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June 08, 2015, 12:19:07 AM
 #25937

hey, i'm just following the Chief Scientist.  he's telling me to upgrade to XT.  no one's forcing you to follow this thread. Cheesy


Also I do not like the leaderless paradigm of Monero. I don't believe that is how innovative design in open source gets done. Open source is superior at refining existing things (e.g. Cryptonote), but it usually sucks at radical innovation. For that, you need a leader. And leaders don't work for free. They work for equity in the creation of their babies.

Here are some of my considerations:

When you have actors out there (i.e. TPTB) that can work more efficiently to influence individuals versus groups, I see not what you term  "the leaderless paradigm" but rather, a distributed leadership that checks/provides redundancy against this sort of vulnerability.  For instance, a common law enforcement tactic is separating suspects and interrogating them alone, as individual power is often more easily influenced versus shared. If Gavin Andressen is perceived as the most trustworthy leader on Bitcoin given the nature of his connection with Satoshi, then logically it'd make most sense to influence him first to influence the group. This is an inherent weakness in pyramid structures.

Time for collaboration/communication is how innovative open source gets done, whether it's between the neural structures in Ur brain or through a fractalized Internet. A flexible development structure leaves room for 'leaders' to contribute their worth while the system does not have to depend upon any one chokepoint so as to cause detriment to the overall effort.

With the possible achievable values in equities of stake in meritorious decentralized projects, the best developers realize that they don't need overbearing ownership in equity for that equity to be worth more than they might efficiently know how to employ in their lifetimes.

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iCEBREAKER
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June 08, 2015, 12:43:25 AM
 #25938


The Genesis Block mentions bailouts for TBTF banks.  It does not mention Visa or Paypal.

"banks" were used as a broad term to encompass Visa/Paypal

Poppycock.  Provably false demonstrably wrong poppycock.

The Genesis Block contains the Holy Text as follows:

Code:
The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks

The Times article cited does not mention Visa/Paypal as being among the banks on the brink of receiving from the Chancellor a second bailout:

Quote
    Billions may be needed as lending squeeze tightens
     
    Alistair Darling has been forced to consider a second bailout for banks as the lending drought worsens.
     
    The Chancellor will decide within weeks whether to pump billions more into the economy as evidence mounts that the £37 billion part-nationalisation last year has failed to keep credit flowing. Options include cash injections, offering banks cheaper state guarantees to raise money privately or buying up “toxic assets”, The Times has learnt.
     
    The Bank of England revealed yesterday that, despite intense pressure, the banks curbed lending in the final quarter of last year and plan even tighter restrictions in the coming months. Its findings will alarm the Treasury.
     
    The Bank is expected to take yet more aggressive action this week by cutting the base rate from its current level of 2 per cent. Doing so would reduce the cost of borrowing but have little effect on the availability of loans.
     
    Whitehall sources said that ministers planned to “keep the banks on the boil” but accepted that they need more help to restore lending levels. Formally, the Treasury plans to focus on state-backed gurantees to encourage private finance, but a number of interventions are on the table, including further injections of taxpayers’ cash.
     
    Under one option, a “bad bank” would be created to dispose of bad debts. The Treasury would take bad loans off the hands of troubled banks, perhaps swapping them for government bonds. The toxic assets, blamed for poisoning the financial system, would be parked in a state vehicle or “bad bank” that would manage them and attempt to dispose of them while “detoxifying” the main-stream banking system.
     
    The idea would mirror the initial proposal by Henry Paulson, the US Treasury Secretary, to underpin the American banking system by buying up toxic assets. The idea was abandoned, ironically, when Mr Paulson decided to follow Britain’s plan of injecting cash directly into troubled banks.
     
    Mr Darling, Gordon Brown and Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, are expected to take the final decision on what extra help to give the banks by the end of the month.
     
    The banks have taken much of the heat for the economy’s woes. But ministers are said increasingly to accept that attacking the banks will not by itself transform a situation that is jeopardising Britain’s economic prospects.
     
    Insiders point out that Mr Darling’s criticism of mortgage lenders has softened in recent weeks.
     
    After the Bank of England’s radical cuts in interest rates over the past two months, the focus at the Treasury has shifted away from mortgage lending to the pressure being put on businesses by the scarcity of loans, which is emerging as the bigger economic danger.
     
    Richard Lambert, the Director-General of the CBI, said yesterday: “The Government is going to have to do more to restore credit flows across the economy.”
     
    He said that the car industry was especially vulnerable: “Without access to credit or loan guarantees on commercial terms, this vital part of the economy will incur lasting damage.”
     
    The scale of the lending drought was highlighted as separate Bank figures showed that the number of new home loans approved plunged to a record low in November. Only 27,000 mortgages for house purchase were approved by banks and building societies, down from a revised 31,000 in October. It is the lowest level since the Bank began collecting data in 1999. The Bank’s quarterly credit conditions survey showed that banks restricted access to loans of all kinds by companies and consumers in the past quarter, and that they plan to tighten the screws more in this quarter.
     
    Halifax reported that the price of the average house fell by more than £100 a day last year. Its quarterly figures showed that the average house ended the year down in price by £37,178, or 16.2 per cent.
     
    PRESSING THEIR POINT
     
    “The single most pressing challenge to economic policy is to get the banking system to get lending in any normal sense”Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England, Nov 26
     
    “They are close to cutting off their noses to spite their faces”
    Lord Mandelson, Business Secretary, accuses the banks of being too conservative, Nov 30
     
    “The banks have to understand that we have put substantial sums of public money in to support them. They, in turn, need to play their part”
    Alistair Darling, Dec 10
     
    “Quite clearly a lot more needs to be done”
    Alistair Darling, Dec 15
     
    January 3, 2009
    Francis Elliott, Deputy Political Editor, and Gary Duncan, Economics Editor


Visa and Paypal make lots of money.  They are not TBTF zombie banks.  They are not even banks; as retail payment processors they have almost nothing to do with BIS money-printing and other commercial/institutional credit related matters!

First you disown the core devs (and Adam Back, because Elders of Blockstream Conspiracy) who wrote and keep running the software you use for your node.

Then you threw under the bus Nick Szabo, who invented not only Bitcoin and Monero (e-cash) but Ethereum (smart contracts/property) as well.

Is anything too sacred to be sacrificed for the instant gratification you believe GavinCoin will provide?

I am guessing the answer is no, because you are now twisting to suit your meaning the Holy Text of Satoshi's Genisis Block.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
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Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

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Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


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It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
Cconvert2G36
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June 08, 2015, 12:55:06 AM
 #25939

If Satoshi had seen 1MB blocks as being absolutely critical to achieving the goals of the project, similar to the fixed distribution in terms of importance, why not act or write in a way that emphasized that? In fact, he acted and wrote as though the blocksize would absolutely be variable over the time vs technological capability curve. 

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June 08, 2015, 12:56:19 AM
 #25940


The Genesis Block mentions bailouts for TBTF banks.  It does not mention Visa or Paypal.

"banks" were used as a broad term to encompass Visa/Paypal

Poppycock.  Provably false demonstrably wrong poppycock.

The Genesis Block contains the Holy Text as follows:

Code:
The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks

The Times article cited does not mention Visa/Paypal as being among the banks on the brink of receiving from the Chancellor a second bailout:

Quote
    Billions may be needed as lending squeeze tightens
     
    Alistair Darling has been forced to consider a second bailout for banks as the lending drought worsens.
     
    The Chancellor will decide within weeks whether to pump billions more into the economy as evidence mounts that the £37 billion part-nationalisation last year has failed to keep credit flowing. Options include cash injections, offering banks cheaper state guarantees to raise money privately or buying up “toxic assets”, The Times has learnt.
     
    The Bank of England revealed yesterday that, despite intense pressure, the banks curbed lending in the final quarter of last year and plan even tighter restrictions in the coming months. Its findings will alarm the Treasury.
     
    The Bank is expected to take yet more aggressive action this week by cutting the base rate from its current level of 2 per cent. Doing so would reduce the cost of borrowing but have little effect on the availability of loans.
     
    Whitehall sources said that ministers planned to “keep the banks on the boil” but accepted that they need more help to restore lending levels. Formally, the Treasury plans to focus on state-backed gurantees to encourage private finance, but a number of interventions are on the table, including further injections of taxpayers’ cash.
     
    Under one option, a “bad bank” would be created to dispose of bad debts. The Treasury would take bad loans off the hands of troubled banks, perhaps swapping them for government bonds. The toxic assets, blamed for poisoning the financial system, would be parked in a state vehicle or “bad bank” that would manage them and attempt to dispose of them while “detoxifying” the main-stream banking system.
     
    The idea would mirror the initial proposal by Henry Paulson, the US Treasury Secretary, to underpin the American banking system by buying up toxic assets. The idea was abandoned, ironically, when Mr Paulson decided to follow Britain’s plan of injecting cash directly into troubled banks.
     
    Mr Darling, Gordon Brown and Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, are expected to take the final decision on what extra help to give the banks by the end of the month.
     
    The banks have taken much of the heat for the economy’s woes. But ministers are said increasingly to accept that attacking the banks will not by itself transform a situation that is jeopardising Britain’s economic prospects.
     
    Insiders point out that Mr Darling’s criticism of mortgage lenders has softened in recent weeks.
     
    After the Bank of England’s radical cuts in interest rates over the past two months, the focus at the Treasury has shifted away from mortgage lending to the pressure being put on businesses by the scarcity of loans, which is emerging as the bigger economic danger.
     
    Richard Lambert, the Director-General of the CBI, said yesterday: “The Government is going to have to do more to restore credit flows across the economy.”
     
    He said that the car industry was especially vulnerable: “Without access to credit or loan guarantees on commercial terms, this vital part of the economy will incur lasting damage.”
     
    The scale of the lending drought was highlighted as separate Bank figures showed that the number of new home loans approved plunged to a record low in November. Only 27,000 mortgages for house purchase were approved by banks and building societies, down from a revised 31,000 in October. It is the lowest level since the Bank began collecting data in 1999. The Bank’s quarterly credit conditions survey showed that banks restricted access to loans of all kinds by companies and consumers in the past quarter, and that they plan to tighten the screws more in this quarter.
     
    Halifax reported that the price of the average house fell by more than £100 a day last year. Its quarterly figures showed that the average house ended the year down in price by £37,178, or 16.2 per cent.
     
    PRESSING THEIR POINT
     
    “The single most pressing challenge to economic policy is to get the banking system to get lending in any normal sense”Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England, Nov 26
     
    “They are close to cutting off their noses to spite their faces”
    Lord Mandelson, Business Secretary, accuses the banks of being too conservative, Nov 30
     
    “The banks have to understand that we have put substantial sums of public money in to support them. They, in turn, need to play their part”
    Alistair Darling, Dec 10
     
    “Quite clearly a lot more needs to be done”
    Alistair Darling, Dec 15
     
    January 3, 2009
    Francis Elliott, Deputy Political Editor, and Gary Duncan, Economics Editor


Visa and Paypal make lots of money.  They are not TBTF zombie banks.  They are not even banks; as retail payment processors they have almost nothing to do with BIS money-printing and other commercial/institutional credit related matters!

First you disown the core devs (and Adam Back, because Elders of Blockstream Conspiracy) who wrote and keep running the software you use for your node.

Then you threw under the bus Nick Szabo, who invented not only Bitcoin and Monero (e-cash) but Ethereum (smart contracts/property) as well.

Is anything too sacred to be sacrificed for the instant gratification you believe GavinCoin will provide?

I am guessing the answer is no, because you are now twisting to suit your meaning the Holy Text of Satoshi's Genisis Block.

blah, blah, blah from the Monero pumper.  btw, i see you cleaned up your sig to hide that fact  Wink
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