Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[Xian01]

Would you be willing to show your proof that shows this is a scam?

 How many legitimate companies that you know of, allow their COO to make one broken promise after another, while earning the scorn of an entire community due to his outrageous behavior and taunting ?

 How many legitimate companies that you know of make bets of 1,000 BTC to charity and then don't honor it in a timely manner ?

 How many legitimate tech companies that you know of are run by a former convicted felon, who's past behavior with mail fraud raises questions about certain aspects of Butterfly Labs' business and customer service practices ?

 How many legitimate "leading edge" tech companies that you know of farm out the design of their chips to third parties, rather than creating the design themselves in-house ?

 How many legitimate "leading edge" tech companies blow their power estimates by almost a factor of 5. At least.

 How many legitimate tech companies that you know of have ever displayed such outright contempt and disrespect for their customers ?

 To be clear, it's not accurate to call them a scam, but they sure have acted like a bunch of bumbling amateurs over the last year.

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[solocan]

Thanks for the heads up.. Its because of people like you, the world is a better place 

[panosgr83]

Lol they just ask for 100 $ for 2 GH/S upgrade!  

Why that? Are they trying to gather funds again? Perhaps they cannot pay their suppliers....
Who knows.... What do you think guys. I would prefer a 5GH/S Upgrade though....for free...
Heck.....Even a 50GH/S upgrade is not enough for the 120 btc I spent back in September 2012.....

I hope that we at least get the units before difficulty increases one again.

[darkmule]

Its obvious this is a huge scam. Huge hashing spike at their location too? weird...

I'm not a fan of BFL (check any of my other posts on these threads), but this one seems to be bogus.  This "spike" has been pretty steady and is related to one of the largest pools.  It is not a new development and likely has nothing to do with BFL at all.  Frankly, I do not believe they have the iron to generate a spike like that, and if they did, they would be shipping. 

My personal guess is they have prototype-type units at best, built at a very high per-unit cost, haven't gotten anywhere near getting the per-unit cost to anything profitable, and are still trying to develop stuff like the Minirigs while delivering stuff like the Jalapenos.

I like to think that if they actually were sitting on all the pre-orders mining with them instead of delivering that this would wake up the BFL zombie cultists from their brainwashed haze, but probably not.  They've all drunk the Kool-Aid by the gallon.

[Li Xia]

Apparently most people on this forum don't know the difference between opinion and fact. There are 0 facts and/or evidence to support a scam with this company or most of the companies people call scams on this forum. Without proof, it's not a fact or a statement. It's simply your opinion on the company and hearsay is not evidence to prove a scam.

Proofs: late with delivery, no communication between company and buyers, no proofs that units actually exist or are in production.
Unless this is your first time ever ordering something via net, I'd ask for a refund.

I've been scammed by Chinese and UK merchants few times already via shops, ebay and few more, and I can tell when someone is trying to rip me off. You are a believer thus I presume, even if you'd be shown a video of BFL CEO telling this is a scam you would still tell it's fake/montage and you need "real" evidence, not some fabricated, low quality clip.

Of course, I gave myself back-door exit earlier stating: "I might eat my own words" but that's because I'm smart and I'd probably could pool the same scheme if I'd ever get desperate to STEAL from other people in broad day light.

[sleevedbiker]

Would you be willing to show your proof that shows this is a scam?

 How many legitimate companies that you know of, allow their COO to make one broken promise after another, while earning the scorn of an entire community due to his outrageous behavior and taunting ?

 How many legitimate companies that you know of make bets of 1,000 BTC to charity and then don't honor it in a timely manner ?

 How many legitimate tech companies that you know of are run by a former convicted felon, who's past behavior with mail fraud raises questions about certain aspects of Butterfly Labs' business and customer service practices ?

 How many legitimate "leading edge" tech companies that you know of farm out the design of their chips to third parties, rather than creating the design themselves in-house ?

 How many legitimate "leading edge" tech companies blow their power estimates by almost a factor of 5. At least.

 How many legitimate tech companies that you know of have ever displayed such outright contempt and disrespect for their customers ?

 To be clear, it's not accurate to call them a scam, but they sure have acted like a bunch of bumbling amateurs over the last year.

There are a few actually. 80% of companies fall behind of a scheduled release date. Not one thing that you bring up justifies a scam. I will agree with you that from what I have read, they should handle them selves better in their responses or don't respond at all. People talk crap about every company that doesn't mean they should go and argue with their customers. Also, if a customer is that un-happy with the company than they should cancel their orders and not give them any of their money again.
But, coming onto a forum and misusing terminology doesn't hurt the company at all, it makes the person look like an imbecile for misusing terms. And I guarantee you at least 70% of the people talking crap about Butterfly labs are people who didn't read the print(which wasn't even in a small font) that said this was a pre-order and maybe should have realized when a product is made for the first time, it's very likely they will run into some difficulties causing delays.
Yes, they may have taken pre-orders a little too early. But, I have pre-ordered a product before 3 months before a release date was even announced, which then took a little over one year from the announcement.  If people do not like that than they should wait until it's no longer a pre-order.
And I am not being biased as I pre-ordered from Butterfly Labs almost one year ago. I also didn't pay using bitcoins, I paid using a CC that has a protection service on it regardless of how long the process may take. So, yes, I had my doubts as well. But, in no way are they a scam(i know you agreed with this part), not one person has proven a scam. They have all proven a new company running into problems on their first launch.

Now, if we wake up one day and the site is gone and they're no longer updating us with information(which they're on their forum). Than we have something to look into. But, at this point, with what people are trying to use to determine a scam, well you may as well call TESLA motors is a scam as well since they're a new company and have only released one shipment of their electric sports car and have the possibility of taking off with all of the pre-order money.
 

[charleshoskinson]

TESLA motors is a scam as well since they're a new company and have only released one shipment of their electric sports car and have the possibility of taking off with all of the pre-order money.

Please don't bring this garbage to our forums. I personally know Elon Musk and it is terribly insulting to compare Tesla to BFL. Tesla never:

• Lied to their customers about the Range, Price and Performance of their Vehicles
• Accepted millions of dollars in pre-orders, broadcasted a release data and then delayed for over a year
• Called their customers stupid or insulted them for asking questions about delays or product changes
• Delivered a substandard product. They won motor trend's car of the year

As for the one shipment of cars, you are either stupid, a liar or just blatantly misinformed. They have delivered hundreds of roadsters and have produced thousands of the model S. They are on target for at least 12,000 model S vehicles by the end of this year. They have been nothing but honest with their predictions about shipments and delays and have managed customer expectations magnificently. Tesla is the literal model for how to manage customers. BFL is the literal polar opposite.

Tesla has also been open with their funding structure from Elon and Larry Page's investment to the venture capital firms they worked with. All R&D was funded with investor money and that has been verified by the IPO process. BFL has never once let any independent entity look at their books.

Furthermore, Tesla has welcome the media and customers to their factory to show the production lines and innovations they have brought to the automotive industry. Josh has never once let anyone inside BFL's facility so we can see our products we paid money for being tested and produced. Pictures of a PCB isn't transparency. Tesla has been open about its suppliers and is held accountable for statements they make. BFL is not.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX0qt6O0n5g, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToVqccRd6Hg

Take your idiocy elsewhere  

[conf]

Thanks for the heads up.. Its because of people like you, the world is a better place 

The world is a better place because of him? hmmm

[sleevedbiker]

First, I didn't call TESLA a scam. How about you stop taking what I say out of context.

"Now, if we wake up one day and the site is gone and they're no longer updating us with information(which they're on their forum). Than we have something to look into. But, at this point, with what people are trying to use to determine a scam, well you may as well call TESLA motors is a scam as well since they're a new company and have only released one shipment of their electric sports car and have the possibility of taking off with all of the pre-order money."

What's garbage is people using words that they don't comprehend. And I will use anything I feel as an example. I know a lot of people don't understand the word "scam",  I hope this isn't the same with the word "comparison" or "example".There are literally hundreds of companies who will not let anyone in their facilities. Just because you purchase something from a company doesn't give you a right to see their facility, nor does it make you an investor. I VERY EASILY, found these  http://imageshack.us/g/1/10104380/ and these http://www.kano-kun.net/?p=6. But, regardless, there's just no pleasing some people. And it's very obvious most people aren't even believing their own BS, otherwise they would have canceled their order and received a refund by now. A lot of people here are all talk and no action. And yes, you can get a refund. This was taken from their F.A.Q. 

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?
A All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That means if we do not ship any machine at all. If you would really like a refund anyway, just ask and we'll probably be able to take care of you. Nonetheless, we reserve the right to handle it on a case by case basis.

The only "idiocy" comes from people who have a third grade comprehension and can't comprehend definition of words or be able to understand a comparison.

[charleshoskinson]

Wow, just wow. I'm really truly sorry you can't comprehend what I'm saying nor the differences between Tesla and BFL. You make me a sad panda. I now need a hug

[chanson]

How many legitimate companies that you know of, allow their COO to make one broken promise after another, while earning the scorn of an entire community due to his outrageous behavior and taunting ?

Josh's only fault is he opts for direct communication rather than lacquering everything in non-committal deceptive weasel words.

If you want a single example of how it's done in legitimate companies, you've should look to Motorola Mobility and their eternal Sisyphean quest to provide customers with their "promised" bootloader unlocks. You will learn that the way it's done "legitimately" is to say something very extremely deceptive phrased awkwardly so that moron blogger microphones (and trade press) paraphrase out the weasel words so that what hits the masses are lies that were never actually uttered.

Re: Telsa, give me a break. Musk is one of the biggest self-inflated sheisters around. Jumping into the spotlight to spouting off uninformed bullshit about Boeing's batteries; fighting extremely deceptive battles with NYT reviewers; etc. And, yes indeed, Tesla's cars, while nevertheless impressive, have not meet their own widely-hyped pre-order performance claims.

[Waiting2bPaid]

Geeezzzzzz...

I cannot possibly read 80 pages of comments and debate and insults...

Can someone just summarize these 80 pages for me and say whether BFL is a scam or not?

Please?

[Inaba]

Furthermore, Tesla has welcome the media and customers to their factory to show the production lines and innovations they have brought to the automotive industry. Josh has never once let anyone inside BFL's facility so we can see our products we paid money for being tested and produced. Pictures of a PCB isn't transparency. Tesla has been open about its suppliers and is held accountable for statements they make. BFL is not.

Just like everything else you spout, Charlie, this is also a lie.  "I know Elon Musk personally" ahaha... yeah right.   Sure, we believe you.

[MooC Tals]

And you kids will be the ones crying after everyone else is mining 1TH/s.

People like you never get it. We don't cry we have experience in the field such as more time around scammers that have been doing this before anyone that is doing it today. If that makes sense.

You come to the forum to be able to take with you the experiences of others that are mining atm. Yet when it comes to people that are seeing discrepancies you chastise them for not conforming to your preconceptions.

Here is some logic for you. How many people are happy with BFL? How many are not?

Why are they not happy? Was it because they did not order a year ago? Is it for the reason that they cost more to buy and run? Maybe it could be for not delivering on time.

Instead of being angry at people for spreading information you should look in to this topic a bit more and have an open mind.

Take a look at my past postings in my profile page. Take a look at others and see for your self. If you have an order with them try not to let that affect your perceptions.

I really don't want this being an flame war as I believe we could be more civil about this.

[MooC Tals]

Furthermore, Tesla has welcome the media and customers to their factory to show the production lines and innovations they have brought to the automotive industry. Josh has never once let anyone inside BFL's facility so we can see our products we paid money for being tested and produced. Pictures of a PCB isn't transparency. Tesla has been open about its suppliers and is held accountable for statements they make. BFL is not.

Just like everything else you spout, Charlie, this is also a lie.  "I know Elon Musk personally" ahaha... yeah right.   Sure, we believe you.

This guy is the COO of BFL for those that don't know. Ask him any questions pertaining to your orders. He's here to help.

He also runs a mining pool called Eclipse. Looks like a nice one too.

[Xian01]

Just like everything else you spout, Charlie, this is also a lie.  "I know Elon Musk personally" ahaha... yeah right.   Sure, we believe you.

Sort of the same way we were supposed to believe you about shipping back in 2012 ?

[charleshoskinson]

Just like everything else you spout, Charlie, this is also a lie.  "I know Elon Musk personally" ahaha... yeah right.   Sure, we believe you

.



yeah.......

And about those 1500 GH/s minirigs? I was quoting as saying they can't exist. Now you are building 500 GH/s rigs. Yep....

[darkmule]

Put all the 5 post shill accounts and BFL trolls on ignore and the thread gets a lot more manageable.

[crendore]

Is anyone here doing the upgrade from 5GH/s to 7GH/s ?

[mikey2011]

Geeezzzzzz...

I cannot possibly read 80 pages of comments and debate and insults...

Can someone just summarize these 80 pages for me and say whether BFL is a scam or not?

Please?

It's my understanding they have started shipping so i don't believe it is