Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[lucasjkr]

It's beginning to look really ugly for anyone holding onto their BFL order that is not in the first month of orders. Jalapenos seem to be shipping at a decent clip but those who ordered singles/little singles/minirigs are being left in the dust.

BTC ROI for the little single I ordered (first week preorders were available) is now at the 6 month mark from my calculations.

we've discussed this at length. use USD roi calculation. if you get it today your USD break even point is roughly 2 weeks.

Why would I calculate ROI in USD when I paid in BTC?

Yes, it has been discussed at length and BFL sock puppets keep disregarding the obviuos. Ordering bitcoin ASIC is not a USD investment, it's a BTC investment irrespective of how you paid it. Your ASIC can be used ONLY to mine BTC and nothing else. If the price of BTC drops to zero the price of your bitcoin ASIC will drop to zero as well.

Once again, BFL sock puppet here. Except they've never heard of me and I don't get paid.

Until such point as you can buy food gas groceries, pay rent or mortgage, and taxes with bitcoin, it could be INSANELY stupid to judge you returns by bitcoin and bitcoin alone. Even if you're buying things directly for bitcoin, it still would be, since almost anything sold except for block eruptors are sold with a fixed USD (or CAD or EUR) and a price in BTC that fluctuates.

In other words, even if you could live in bitcoin only land, your prices will be fluctuating based on exchange rates. Besides which all of your other inputs are denominated in fiat - electricity, computer, rent, etc. it's frankly insane you don't recognize this.

Put another way: if you loan someone 2btc when usd/BTC is 200 and they pay you back 3 BTC when usd/BTC is 100 did you come out ahead? Did you do better than someone who loaned out 2 BTC when usd/BTC was 100 and received back only 2.1 BTC when the usd/BTC exchange rate is 240? If you can say with a straight face that you'd prefer to be the first person, well, you're living in an alternate reality.

One day, when goods and services are sold for fixed BTC rates against fluctuating fiat rates, then yes, denominate your returns in bitcoin. That day isn't today. You're not being honest with yourself, and more importantly, you're not being honest with anyone else by pretending otherwise.

[MooC Tals]

makes sense to me.

[becoin]

Put another way: if you loan someone 2btc when usd/BTC is 200 and they pay you back 3 BTC when usd/BTC is 100 did you come out ahead?

Sure I do! If I want to come ahead in USD I would loan USD. If I loan BTC I expect BTC back. Sounds strange? Are you honest with yourself?

Put another way: if I loan someone 2 BTC when BTC/USD rate is 200 and instead of paying back 3 BTC he can pay back his loan with only 1 BTC because rate is 600?! Is that what you'd justify?

[lucasjkr]

Put another way: if you loan someone 2btc when usd/BTC is 200 and they pay you back 3 BTC when usd/BTC is 100 did you come out ahead?

Sure I do! If I want to come ahead in USD I would loan USD. If I loan BTC I expect BTC back. Sounds strange? Are you honest with yourself?

Put another way: if I loan someone 2 BTC when BTC/USD rate is 200 and instead of paying back 3 BTC he can pay back his loan with only 1 BTC because rate is 600?! Is that what you'd justify?

If you think that first scenario was a positive outcome, I certainly wouldn't want you as a business partner! In the second scenario, yes, I might be open to it. Its called looking at the whole picture. Bitcoin doesn't exist in its own static world, it constantly intersects with fiat because that's what we earn and spend day in and day out.

In relation to your constant gripe, you bought from BFL when btc was much cheaper. Think of yourself as having an investment portfolio. In that you had dollars and you had bitcoins and you wanted to add a butterfly labs device to it. Butterfly labs needed dollars from you, as their suppliers are paid in dollars, their rent and utilities are paid in dollars and their employees need dollars too. They provided the option to either pay in dollars or to pay in btc which they would then sell and convert to dollars for those above mentioned expenses. You looked at your "portfolio" and saw dollars and bitcoinsand made the choice to lower your bitcoin exposure in order to add a BFL gadget. You can't scream at them demanding they reimburse you the bitcoin value you sent - those were converted to dollars by your own choice when you chose to send them to BFL. If you thought they would run up to 100-200 at the time, shame on you for sending btc rather than dollars. Yes, it took them longer to ship than you expected (and they expected), that's on them, yes. But you chose to pay in bitcoin rather than dollars, making the decision implicitly that it was more prudent to hold bitcoin than dollars at the time.

And you know what? Who could blame you? By June 2012, btc had lost 80% of its value from its previous high. And if you receive your device and mine enough bitcoin to break even on a dollar denominated basis, you won. Not as much as if you'd held the bitcoin, but your return is still positive. Yes, it could have been higher by spending dollars and not bitcoin, but that was an allocation decision that YOU made.

Now, if josh reads this, I have a btc address in my sig. Please send my some, so I can graduate to the title of "official sock puppet". 

[Kouye]

I have a btc address in my sig.

Yet another lie. 

[lucasjkr]

I have a btc address in my sig.

Yet another lie. 

doh!

[arousedrhino]

Has anyone successfully gotten a refund during the month of July?

At the rate they are shipping it feels like they are intentionally slowing down shipping so they don't fill too many orders. I'm out, I emailed them last night for a refund, if they deny that I will be issuing a paypal dispute or if need be a chargeback.

[MooC Tals]

BFL lolz What a fucken joke of a company! Is there anything that has come out of bitcoins in general? That was good?

Josh and the gang WooHoo

Between the criminal at the helm and the patsy issuing promises like his ass can cash the cheque, everyone gets shafted...

Then again what did you expect a box that made money? plz!!!!! hahaha

[becoin]

Put another way: if you loan someone 2btc when usd/BTC is 200 and they pay you back 3 BTC when usd/BTC is 100 did you come out ahead?

Sure I do! If I want to come ahead in USD I would loan USD. If I loan BTC I expect BTC back. Sounds strange? Are you honest with yourself?

Put another way: if I loan someone 2 BTC when BTC/USD rate is 200 and instead of paying back 3 BTC he can pay back his loan with only 1 BTC because rate is 600?! Is that what you'd justify?

If you think that first scenario was a positive outcome, I certainly wouldn't want you as a business partner! In the second scenario, yes, I might be open to it. Its called looking at the whole picture. Bitcoin doesn't exist in its own static world, it constantly intersects with fiat because that's what we earn and spend day in and day out.

Nonsense and BS...

To wrap it up; 1 year ago when BTC/USD exchange rate was at 20 I loaned you 4 BTC at 25% interest rate. Now you can pay back this loan with only 1 BTC because exchange rate is at 100. Reason: we must be "looking at the whole picture"... Is that your understanding for a fair business, moron? Have you ever touched a real business during your entire life?

Next sock puppet, please! This one is smoking some BS and exposing BFL scam even further.

[darkmule]

BFL lolz What a fucken joke of a company! Is there anything that has come out of bitcoins in general? That was good?

Is there even a company?  Has anyone found anything resembling corporate records for BFL even being a corporation? 

Where is it incorporated?  Delaware?  Anywhere?  The lack of any kind of corporate entity would be quite disturbing.  It would indicate nobody involved with this whatever-it-is even has assets worth protecting, i.e. that the whole thing is judgment-proof.

Glad I don't have a dog in this hunt, because I'd be pretty scared if I did.

[waver]

Address: 10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211 United States of America

Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs

If you google map them with the above address you can see their office(or what they claim is their office) I was able to get a good 'street view' from the interstate that goes right by them.

They have what looks like solar panels for window shades..

The phone,fax,and skype numbers are of little help.

[darkmule]

Address: 10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211 United States of America

Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs

If you google map them with the above address you can see their office(or what they claim is their office) I was able to get a good 'street view' from the interstate that goes right by them.

They have what looks like solar panels for window shades..

The phone,fax,and skype numbers are of little help.

Anyone actually found corporate records on this shit?  As far as I can tell, it doesn't even exist.  I haven't gone to much effort, though.

[bronan]

Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs

that MINE you can translated into all you paid is ....

[ibminer]

Address: 10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211 United States of America

Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs

If you google map them with the above address you can see their office(or what they claim is their office) I was able to get a good 'street view' from the interstate that goes right by them.

They have what looks like solar panels for window shades..

The phone,fax,and skype numbers are of little help.

Anyone actually found corporate records on this shit?  As far as I can tell, it doesn't even exist.  I haven't gone to much effort, though.

Don't they file as BF Labs INC?
http://www.kansas.gov/bess/flow/main;jsessionid=83599219BA7C6526AE556B6921BBC9E3.aptcs03-inst0?execution=e1s13

[tinus42]

Address: 10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211 United States of America

Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs

If you google map them with the above address you can see their office(or what they claim is their office) I was able to get a good 'street view' from the interstate that goes right by them.

They have what looks like solar panels for window shades..

The phone,fax,and skype numbers are of little help.

It says AL HUBER GENERAL CONTRACTOR on the side of that building.

Googling that name gives their website. They are apparently still located at that address.

http://www.alhuber.com/contact.aspx

I guess BFL is renting some office and warehouse space from this company.

[BBazaar]

BFL is a scam.  How can anyone seriously argue otherwise?  OK, you can make the case that they ARE shipping product right? They still aren't delivering on promises, to people who should have received units. They aren't offering refunds to customers either who are clearly not going to receive their product anytime soon.

WAKE UP PEOPLE.  You mislead customers = SCAM.  You pay for product that you haven't received and you can't get your funds back = SCAM.  Customer service won't answer your questions or give you a reasonable expectation = SCAM.  Sure you might get a unit, or you might get your money back, but most people won't.  Even in a Ponzi scheme a few people can take out what they put in, the rest get burned.

Cut and dry.

[waver]

My thoughts on the whole BFL thing are:

They got all the money from the pre-orders, used it to buy a massive load of ASIC chips, got all the chips and other necessary equipment and started hashing with them as soon as they arrived, made 4 or 5 times the amount the chips and other equipment cost, then started slowly building the miners and even slower-ly started shipping SOME of the out so folks would not totally freak out. In the end I think you will all get your miners, LONG after they have become unprofitable to run but AFTER BFL has made a serious killing on them.

Maybe this could turn into a massive class action suit against them if someone could prove they were using the hardware before shipping it. Maybe each person in the class could reap the amount of BTC they COULD have mined if BFL would have shipped on time + some for psychological suffering. That ought to get them off their yachts in the Caribbean..

I'm sure someone has already said this but anyway here I am saying it again.

[torrentheaven]

Maybe this could turn into a massive class action suit against them if someone could prove they were using the hardware before shipping it.

it is called hardware testing.

remember, they have to be sure the unit works properly before shipping

[Fiyasko]

Could someone please just hire a real lawyer already to look through all thier bullshit for something to tear apart this conart?

[SgtSpike]

Address: 10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211 United States of America

Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs

If you google map them with the above address you can see their office(or what they claim is their office) I was able to get a good 'street view' from the interstate that goes right by them.

They have what looks like solar panels for window shades..

The phone,fax,and skype numbers are of little help.

Anyone actually found corporate records on this shit?  As far as I can tell, it doesn't even exist.  I haven't gone to much effort, though.

I don't know, a simple search on the Kansas Secretary of State website shows they are registered under the name "BF Labs Inc."  It also shows their current mailing address as being in Wyoming, which still matches with their original registration there.  5830 EAST 2ND STREET, CASPER, WY 82609.  Their "Business Entity ID Number" is 4651691.  I'm not sure if this link works, but you can look up their filing on the Wyoming Secretary of State website as well.  Same name, BF Labs.  https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081.  They've held this one since 2011.  On the Wyoming filing, it shows "President / Director   CHRIS      VLEISIDES         2507 JEFFERSON KANSAS CITY, MO 64108"

Anyway, it most certainly does exist.  You should go to more effort next time before spouting off about it.