Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[creativex]

The problem is that many sent their precious BTC to BFL last summer with an exchange rate hovering around $6 because BFL promised delivery in October(2012). They'll never get those BTCs back from their gear even if it's delivered tomorrow. When you convert the cost of a BFL minirig paid for in BTC in June of 2012 at a $6 exchange rate you quickly begin to understand the magnitude of the problem.

[Ytterbium]

The problem is that many sent their precious BTC to BFL last summer with an exchange rate hovering around $6 because BFL promised delivery in October(2012). They'll never get those BTCs back from their gear even if it's delivered tomorrow. When you convert the cost of a BFL minirig paid for in BTC in June of 2012 at a $6 exchange rate you quickly begin to understand the magnitude of the problem.

What's odd is that BFL's defenders get so emotional about the fact that ROI in BTC doesn't matter, just fiat. Except, for people who rolled over the BTC they got from mining hoping to increase the amount they had, they... basically got screwed over.

I don't know why it's so hard for them to deal with the fact that a lot of people wanted to increase their BTC holdings, and believed the price would go way up (which it did)

[creativex]

The problem is that many sent their precious BTC to BFL last summer with an exchange rate hovering around $6 because BFL promised delivery in October(2012). They'll never get those BTCs back from their gear even if it's delivered tomorrow. When you convert the cost of a BFL minirig paid for in BTC in June of 2012 at a $6 exchange rate you quickly begin to understand the magnitude of the problem.

What's odd is that BFL's defenders get so emotional about the fact that ROI in BTC doesn't matter, just fiat. Except, for people who rolled over the BTC they got from mining hoping to increase the amount they had, they... basically got screwed over.

I don't know why it's so hard for them to deal with the fact that a lot of people wanted to increase their BTC holdings, and believed the price would go way up (which it did)

Quite frankly I don't believe many of them believe what they're saying. We've all seen instances where Josh has used exchange rate fairy dust to justify what can only be described as robbery. Why would this miner turned COO of a mining hardware equipment company find it so difficult to believe people would want their BTC investments to return more BTC? He doesn't believe his own words.

[Trade4Coins]

Yes, people waiting for 10 months to get their product. When they made order bitcoin mining was profitable but now it is low profitable.

[Frizz23]

[saruche]

A friend of mine was really after me that I should take a loan and buy the Terrahash miner from Butterfly Lab. I was so close to get the loan but then I realised something is not good and then I read this..I am definitely steering clear ofButterfly Labs

[lucasjkr]

Actually come to think of it... Any entity that trades goods, services or other currencies for multiple currencies should be considered an exchange and then would have to abide by US regulation if USD is an option for return.

I see. You want bitcoin to all of a sudden become the most regulated currency anywhere? And what do you think that will do to the value of your bitcoins? Cause them to plummet. But then I guess that doesn't matter because you'll still have the original quantity of bitcoins, right?

[VeeMiner]

I actually got the Single I ordered more then 13 months ago. It hashes 55 instead of 60 but whatever, I'm happy to at least have it...

[Ytterbium]

A friend of mine was really after me that I should take a loan and buy the Terrahash miner from Butterfly Lab. I was so close to get the loan but then I realised something is not good and then I read this..I am definitely steering clear ofButterfly Labs

Awesome

If you really want a miner go with KnC, or possibly Cointerra.  But I don't know if their units will be profitable any time soon.

[canalnova]

I actually got the Single I ordered more then 13 months ago. It hashes 55 instead of 60 but whatever, I'm happy to at least have it...

I'm still waiting for my upgraded Jalapeño ordered y may. When it arrives I hope the return of my investement in 2 moths or so. But I'd like to know other uses to it, altcoins or scientific calculations...
I think that in december the Jalapeño will be a expensive brick in the Bitcoin's network 

[YourCoins4me]

They scammed lot of peoples by accepting pre-orders.

Their devices is not profitable now.

[lucasjkr]

Quite frankly I don't believe many of them believe what they're saying. We've all seen instances where Josh has used exchange rate fairy dust to justify what can only be described as robbery. Why would this miner turned COO of a mining hardware equipment company find it so difficult to believe people would want their BTC investments to return more BTC? He doesn't believe his own words.

This is a situation that's hardly unique to BFL, and will likely be widespread going forward... Most BTC mining investments aren't likely to return the same amount of BTC in the future. Hopefully some people will be satisfied by the dollar denominated returns, because if everyone decides they'ed rather hold their bitcoins than invest in a mining venture that likely won't return the same amount of Bitcoins, then pull the plug.

I wonder, if all the people who are upset that the 1 BTC they spent when the BTC/USD rate was $6 and then earned back a total of .75 BTC when the exchange rate was $150, would they be happier if their 1 BTC investment returned 2 BTC, but the BTC/USD exchange rate fell to $1 in the intervening time period?

[creativex]

Then perhaps people will be encouraged to make better choices going forward and the predators will starve. BTC investments should be made with the goal of obtaining a positive return measured in BTC. If you have to do exchange rate hocus pocus to justify your investment in BTC mining gear then your investment was a mistake and you should have kept your BTC in your wallet or used your fiat to put BTC in your wallet and left those in your wallet.

[vervolioman]

They scammed lot of peoples by accepting pre-orders.

Their devices is not profitable now.

Custommers believed in dellivery time promises, yet there is not sanction in contract if BFL does not delliver in promised time. Lesson learned, do not preorder. Period.

[Amitabh S]

They will ship, possibly, but will it happen before the block reward halves twice?

[tinus42]

They will ship, possibly, but will it happen before the block reward halves twice?

They will probably ship when the last coin is minted in 2140. 

[Meizirkki]

A friend of mine was really after me that I should take a loan and buy the Terrahash miner from Butterfly Lab.

wow. What a good friend.

Horrifying idea..

[tinus42]

A friend of mine was really after me that I should take a loan and buy the Terrahash miner from Butterfly Lab.

wow. What a good friend.

Horrifying idea..

With friends like that who needs enemies? 

[lucasjkr]

I see. You want bitcoin to all of a sudden become the most regulated currency anywhere? And what do you think that will do to the value of your bitcoins? Cause them to plummet. But then I guess that doesn't matter because you'll still have the original quantity of bitcoins, right?

That would be nice and I have no idea how you would assume an economic protocol as sophisticated as Bitcoin to generate a limited 21 million whole units of measurement that can further be sub-divided by 10 more digits be devalued if handled via regulated "fiat only" country official exchanges. You're also forgetting the protocol enables earning and spending Bitcoins without having to even convert to any other currency.

I'm just saying I wouldn't mind seeing an USA exclusive // USD official deficit backed exchange be fully regulated with tax code to sell Bitcoin at a rate of USD per Bitcoin determined by the ratio of USD deficit to amount of Bitcoins (to their lowest denomination) owned by citizens living in the United States, (or what ever native currency for the country you live in to operate their own official / exclusive exchange).

What that would mean is who ever owes anyone "fiat" can pay them back in Bitcoin at it's currency-deficit backed exchange rate determined by the country. It keeps Bitcoin decentralized but fine tunes it to a degree that unifies all other currencies. That is also keeping in mind that Bitcoin itself can be earned and spent without even havening to deal with any other currency.

Besides the fact that Bitcoin is still really infantile, companies like ButterFly Labs as much as they are holding the numerical value of Bitcoin for many of their customers by getting ahead of themselves, they are contributing interesting and unique complications with Bitcoin to help it become more refined. I am not opposed to supporting my country as many existing Bitcoin services already do by allowing "fiat" currency to be traded in the first place.

Additionally, the government regulated currency exclusive exchange would most likely require whatever currency is exchanged with them to only be used on domestic based goods and services to cycle more tax revenue. Wow, what this means is every country has the opportunity to be economically isolated if they choose to be and those who require foreign trade would have to do so transparently with a currency that's less expensive to trade with.

Wow. First, if governments did manage to get their hands on bitcoin and could fully regulate it (Say, they hire Gavin for starters) my bet would be most of the community would flee from the currency faster than you can blink your eye.

Second, a government sanctioned exchange where the participants can only use their coins to purchase domestically? That pretty much is unenfircable on so many levels (again, save for hiring all the bitcoin developers). There is no way to determine what country an address belongs to.

Your proposition that people can pay back their deficit debt for bitcoins, ummm elaborate?

The protocol enables earning BTC without having to deal in any other currency? You mean by mining? Miners need to be purchased, and its open for debate whether any currently shipping miner or even currently announced miner can earn back its cost, due to such massive deployment of asics.

...

[Ytterbium]

They irony is they took in what would have been probably 10s of millions of BTC at this point, but for the most part they liquidated it at very low prices to fund their business. They probably didn't make nearly as much money off of this as they stole from other people.

New entrants that have recently come in have had the luxury of taking pre-orders from people who were much richer then they were when BFL started. So they can afford better tech, etc. The irony is that if bitcoin hits $1k, it'll attract even more new companies that will be even better funded.