Health and Religion

[Astargath]

The thing about religion is, there is too many of them, this might be the reason why until now, peace is a very difficult thing to attain in our world. So many beliefs, so many faith that it results to war and terrorism. Which results to building of weapons like nuclear power, that affects the human health.

And every religious person claims their god is the real one. In a way every religious person is an atheist on the other religions, I find it quite funny when they insult atheists, although they are doing the same thing for all the other religions but theirs. There is no real reason to believe on religion is real and the others aren't. None of them have proof. Some folks claim their book has predictions that are true but does that make god real? Is the book with most predictions the real one?

Well, almost exactly as you say. The difference in your case is that you are proclaiming yourself to be God by having the authoritative stupidity to say that there isn't any God, when you don't really know it to be true.

Don't you think you should be a little more humble just in case there is a True Great God? I mean, He knows He has the last laugh against you... easily. He knows what a weakling you are. You can't even create a grain of sand, but He made the whole universe. He's playing you, son... but maybe playing with you.

Oh no I can say that because I'm referring to religious gods which are all very easy to disprove by exposing the stupidity in their books, systems, etc etc. As I pointed out earlier with the god from the bible:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24835142#msg24835142

I don't deny the possibility of some sort of being that created the universe and I can't disprove that. Religious gods on the other hand are always garbage.

[1714681538]

1714681538

[1714681538]

1714681538

[BADecker]

The thing about religion is, there is too many of them, this might be the reason why until now, peace is a very difficult thing to attain in our world. So many beliefs, so many faith that it results to war and terrorism. Which results to building of weapons like nuclear power, that affects the human health.

And every religious person claims their god is the real one. In a way every religious person is an atheist on the other religions, I find it quite funny when they insult atheists, although they are doing the same thing for all the other religions but theirs. There is no real reason to believe on religion is real and the others aren't. None of them have proof. Some folks claim their book has predictions that are true but does that make god real? Is the book with most predictions the real one?

Well, almost exactly as you say. The difference in your case is that you are proclaiming yourself to be God by having the authoritative stupidity to say that there isn't any God, when you don't really know it to be true.

Don't you think you should be a little more humble just in case there is a True Great God? I mean, He knows He has the last laugh against you... easily. He knows what a weakling you are. You can't even create a grain of sand, but He made the whole universe. He's playing you, son... but maybe playing with you.

Oh no I can say that because I'm referring to religious gods which are all very easy to disprove by exposing the stupidity in their books, systems, etc etc. As I pointed out earlier with the god from the bible:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24835142#msg24835142

I don't deny the possibility of some sort of being that created the universe and I can't disprove that. Religious gods on the other hand are always garbage.

All right. So you understand that something that falls into the classification of a real God exists.

Since cause and effect show that He is so great that He set everything in place by completely and perfectly controlling His roll of the dice, so to speak, it follows that He wanted humans to exist and even recognize Him. Religion is a way that we recognize Him in greater detail than science has been able to give us. Which religion would He show Himself through? Or would it be all religions?

Tough question to figure out the answer to. Perhaps we should look for the religion that has power in it.

[BADecker]

The thing about religion is, there is too many of them, this might be the reason why until now, peace is a very difficult thing to attain in our world. So many beliefs, so many faith that it results to war and terrorism. Which results to building of weapons like nuclear power, that affects the human health.

And every religious person claims their god is the real one. In a way every religious person is an atheist on the other religions, I find it quite funny when they insult atheists, although they are doing the same thing for all the other religions but theirs. There is no real reason to believe on religion is real and the others aren't. None of them have proof. Some folks claim their book has predictions that are true but does that make god real? Is the book with most predictions the real one?

Well, almost exactly as you say. The difference in your case is that you are proclaiming yourself to be God by having the authoritative stupidity to say that there isn't any God, when you don't really know it to be true.

Don't you think you should be a little more humble just in case there is a True Great God? I mean, He knows He has the last laugh against you... easily. He knows what a weakling you are. You can't even create a grain of sand, but He made the whole universe. He's playing you, son... but maybe playing with you.

Oh no I can say that because I'm referring to religious gods which are all very easy to disprove by exposing the stupidity in their books, systems, etc etc. As I pointed out earlier with the god from the bible:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24835142#msg24835142

I don't deny the possibility of some sort of being that created the universe and I can't disprove that. Religious gods on the other hand are always garbage.

All right. So you understand that something that falls into the classification of a real God exists.

Since cause and effect show that He is so great that He set everything in place by completely and perfectly controlling His roll of the dice, so to speak, it follows that He wanted humans to exist and even recognize Him. Religion is a way that we recognize Him in greater detail than science has been able to give us. Which religion would He show Himself through? Or would it be all religions?

Tough question to figure out the answer to. Perhaps we should look for the religion that has power in it.

Because Christianity is a religion of faith, many Bible scholars say we should avoid proving any of it.

By entering the movements of the stars and planets into a computer, NASA has found that the lost day of Joshua in Joshua 10:13, and the shorter period of time in 2 Kings 20:9–11 that were supposed to be discrepancies in the movements of the stars and planets.

One site is https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/nasa-found-joshuas-missing-day/.

Science is starting to prove that the Bible is accurate.

[Astargath]

The thing about religion is, there is too many of them, this might be the reason why until now, peace is a very difficult thing to attain in our world. So many beliefs, so many faith that it results to war and terrorism. Which results to building of weapons like nuclear power, that affects the human health.

And every religious person claims their god is the real one. In a way every religious person is an atheist on the other religions, I find it quite funny when they insult atheists, although they are doing the same thing for all the other religions but theirs. There is no real reason to believe on religion is real and the others aren't. None of them have proof. Some folks claim their book has predictions that are true but does that make god real? Is the book with most predictions the real one?

Well, almost exactly as you say. The difference in your case is that you are proclaiming yourself to be God by having the authoritative stupidity to say that there isn't any God, when you don't really know it to be true.

Don't you think you should be a little more humble just in case there is a True Great God? I mean, He knows He has the last laugh against you... easily. He knows what a weakling you are. You can't even create a grain of sand, but He made the whole universe. He's playing you, son... but maybe playing with you.

Oh no I can say that because I'm referring to religious gods which are all very easy to disprove by exposing the stupidity in their books, systems, etc etc. As I pointed out earlier with the god from the bible:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24835142#msg24835142

I don't deny the possibility of some sort of being that created the universe and I can't disprove that. Religious gods on the other hand are always garbage.

All right. So you understand that something that falls into the classification of a real God exists.

Since cause and effect show that He is so great that He set everything in place by completely and perfectly controlling His roll of the dice, so to speak, it follows that He wanted humans to exist and even recognize Him. Religion is a way that we recognize Him in greater detail than science has been able to give us. Which religion would He show Himself through? Or would it be all religions?

Tough question to figure out the answer to. Perhaps we should look for the religion that has power in it.

Because Christianity is a religion of faith, many Bible scholars say we should avoid proving any of it.

By entering the movements of the stars and planets into a computer, NASA has found that the lost day of Joshua in Joshua 10:13, and the shorter period of time in 2 Kings 20:9–11 that were supposed to be discrepancies in the movements of the stars and planets.

One site is https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/nasa-found-joshuas-missing-day/.

Science is starting to prove that the Bible is accurate.

     HAHAHAHAAHA

Oh man I don't even know what to say. Have you read anything in your link? The link itself is named ''arguments to avoid'' The first thing the article says is ''Many Christians mistakenly claim that NASA scientists have confirmed the Bible by finding Joshua's missing day. ''

I'm starting to believe you are trolling me now.

[daddypastes]

Religion and IQ

High IQ is usually regarded by those that possess it as an unmitigated good. Those gifted with superior intellect are not only smarter, they are statistically more likely to be taller, healthier, and more athletic than average. In his 1920 study on high IQ children Lewis Terman noted that despite these advantages high IQ is not always beneficial. He found that the very brightest often grew up maladjusted in some way suffering from anxiety, depression, personality disorder, or nervous breakdowns.

In Mensa Magazine Bruce G Charlton posited three fundamental disadvantages of high IQ .

Charlton’s triad:
1)   Socialism
2)   Atheism
3)   Reduced Fertility

Charlton argued that IQ is associated with a tendency to embrace socialism, a rejection of religious teachings, and ultimately a declining fertility. The purpose of this essay is to evaluate Charlton’s triad in the context of religion and health. Specifically we will look closely at the potential health effects of atheism.

Religion Health and Wellbeing

Is the lack of religion bad for your health? In a large survey of over 600,000 people Frank Newport and colleagues showed that the very religious not only report higher levels of overall wellbeing they are also more likely to have healthy eating and exercise habits.



Every religion reported superior wellbeing to that of atheist but the largest differences were found in the Mormons and the Jews. These are minority religions each comprising about 1.7% of the US population. Examining these two groups will help us better understand the impact of religion on human health.

Mormon Demographics

Demographically Mormons differ greatly from society at large. Nearly two thirds of Mormons 66% are married compared with just over half 48% of the general population. Mormons have large families with a fertility rate of 3.4 children per woman double that of atheists.



Mormons may also have some immunity the detrimental effect IQ on fertility. In the general population increasing income (highly correlated with IQ) is associated with both declining fertility and declining religious commitment. In Mormons the reverse is true. Mormon fertility is positively correlated with income and Mormons with higher levels of formal education tend to be more religiously committed.

On multiple religious measures Mormons stand out for having exceptionally high levels of religious commitment. More than nine-in-ten Mormons report a belief in God and that the Bible is the word of God. Mormons are also very observant in their religious practices with more than eight-in-ten praying daily. Mormons strongly support a strict interpretation of their faith and the preservation of traditional beliefs and practices.

Are these demographic differences actually due to the Mormon religion? How can we be confident these are not just population level differences that happen to correlate with religion? To better answer lets take a look at Jewish demographics.

Jewish Demographics

Unlike Mormons who are a young religion and can be looked at as a single group Judaism is one of the oldest religions and has splintered into many subgroups. There are many different branches of Judaism each with unique features. These branches can mostly be grouped into 5 major categories. From most conservative to most liberal these are Ultra-Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Secular Jews.

Orthodox Jews believe their sacred scriptures the Torah is the word of God and should be studied and followed. Their customs and behavior is guided by observance of halakhah (Jewish Law). Conservative Jews acknowledge that Jewish writings come from God, but believe that the Law should adapt, absorbing aspects of the predominant culture while remaining true to Judaism's values. Reform Judaism does not hold that the Torah was written by God. The movement accepts the critical theory of Biblical authorship: that the Bible was written by separate sources and redacted together. Reform Jews do not believe in observance of commandments as such, but they retain much of the values and ethics of Judaism. Secular Jews do not affiliate with any major religious group they may or may not believe in God. A more detailed description of these difference can be read here.

When people think of the Jews they often think of famous figures like Allen Greenspan or presidential candidate Bernie Sanders both secular Jews. Secular Jews are often liberal, democratic voters. Orthodox Jews on the other hand tend to be socially conservative, and are more likely to be republican voters.

The Jews as a group are incredibly smart. They consistently rank highest in the world on IQ studies significantly higher than even Asians who are their nearest competitors. If Charlton’s triad of IQ disadvantages is correct then the Jews should be particularly susceptible. Is this the case?

American Jewish Fertility by Religious Current

Religious Sect	Average No. of Children per Woman
Ultra-Orthodox	6.72
Modern Orthodox	3.39
Conservative	1.74
Reform	1.36
Secular	1.29

As Jews leave orthodoxy it appears their fertility plummets. The Ultra-Orthodox are a group who are similar to the Amish in that they have partially separated themselves from the outside world choosing to live in isolated communities. They have a fertility rate of 6.72 which is similar to Amish fertility rates . Modern Orthodox Jews strictly adhere to their faith but simultaneously advocate engaging with the outside world especially higher education. The Modern Orthodox fertility rate 3.39 is nearly identical to that of Mormons. The Modern Orthodox have a similar philosophy to that of Mormons in that they advocate engaging with the outside world as much as possible while maintaining strict adherence to their religious code. As Jews move away from their historic religious tradition their fertility plummets. Secular Jews have a shockingly low fertility of 1.29 among the lowest in the world. For the Jews it appears the detrimental effects of high IQ are very real and that traditional religion offers some protection.

Toxicity of the Modern World

In Brave New World, Aldous Huxley envisioned a future where the masses were rendered infertile and controlled with pleasure and drugs. Is that the world we live in now? Anyone over that age of 25 may not realize how far traditional courtship and dating has been undermined by modernity. The tinder generation is being conditioned to swipe right on their onscreen app and meet up later for random sexual gratification. This phenomena has been described by Vanity Fair as nothing less than a dating apocalypse.

In Colorado long acting implantable contraceptives which a render women infertile for up to 10 years and require a doctor’s visit to remove have been implanted in 26% of young women age 15-24 as of 2013.

In 2015 an advisory body to the US Department of Health and Human Services recommended that Medicaid examine how often doctors are using “most effective” or “moderately effective” contraception. Only contraception deemed “highly effective” or “moderately effective” (Long acting implantable or long acting injections) would be included in the proposed measurement. Doctor’s with a low percentage of young patients using such contraception would presumably be rated as giving lower quality care.

We appear to be living in a “Utopia” of declining fitness and capability. An age of existential exhaustion manifested by an ageing, hedonistic society characterized by declining marriage, and near zero children.

Sin is the Situation

Sin is the situation where how we feel is ultimate human reality, and how we feel is known to be contingent and means nothing.
Sin is to embrace this nothingness as reality, to propagandize that nothingness is reality, to denigrate anything which saves us from nothingness.
*
And that is the reason we need to be ‘saved’.
And this is the reason why we cannot save ourselves.
We need to be saved from nothingness, and from those who brainwash us into a belief in nothingness, and from ourselves who propagate that reality is nothingness.
*
Sin is to embrace nothingness

Modern society is a mechanism for inculcating bad habits, especially the habit of seeking instant pleasure, intoxications and distractions; a habit of regarding ourselves as passive recipients for ‘entertainment’. A devout life is not so much about a flash of understanding but is mostly a matter of using insights into truth in building-up good habits; and this can be influenced by our will. A devout life enables one to build these habits and most importantly successfully pass them on to our children.

Whatever sense we make of this world, whatever value we place upon our lives and relationships, whatever meaning we ultimately give to our joys and agonies, must necessarily be a gesture of faith. Whether we consider the whole a product of impersonal cosmic forces, a malevolent deity, or a benevolent god, depends not on the evidence, but on what we choose, deliberately and consciously to conclude from that evidence… If we decide to leave the questions unanswered, that is a choice; if we waver in our answer that too is a choice: but whatever choice we make, we make it at our peril.

What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.

In the end you must make a choice:

Wallow in the degradation of modernity

Or

Celebrate purity of the human spirit

Your choice is one that echoes through time influencing not only your life but the lives of your children and grandchildren as well.
Choose Wisely


See Religion and Progress for more.



Edit: It is clear that a few posters were angered by the original title of this post. As the goal of this post is not to attack or denigrate but to inform and share knowledge I have selected a new and less inflammatory title.

IQ is for knowledge and religion is how to a touch our self to god.

[CoinCube]

...
I don't deny the possibility of some sort of being that created the universe and I can't disprove that. Religious gods on the other hand are always garbage.

the bible is extremely easy to prove wrong, I already showed you many examples of it's big big flaws. For instance, humans, God made humans purposely imperfect and then they failed by eating the fruit he told them not to, this already makes no sense if your god is omniscient and omnipotent. From there we have the same problems trough the whole bible
...

Given the length of this exchange a summary of what we have discussed so far is warranted.

Upthread I highlighted how we can mathematically deduce The Incompleteness of the universe and logically conclude that whatever is outside the universe must be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg23796852#msg23796852

I next highlighted how religious thought specifically monotheism conceptualises God and how this conceptualisation is consistent with what we can mathematically deduce.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24187846#msg24187846

I also demonstrated how traditional Biblical writings on the timeline of creation and origins of mankind can in fact be reconciled with modern scientific thought.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24374030#msg24374030

I reviewed the limitations of reason in understanding infinity and the fact that our understanding of God must necessarily be a massive oversimplification. God can never truly be grasped through our mind as our mind is time-bound.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24330562#msg24330562

Finally I noted the importance of truly drilling down to the foundations of ones metaphysical assumptions and how failure to do so was ceding control of ones actions, beliefs and thoughts to external forces.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24418501#msg24418501

At this point you asked to start the conversation over again.

Ok, let's start again.

We returned to the logic that allows us to mathematically deduce the incompleteness of the universe and reviewed it in greater depth reducing that logic down to its three primary assumptions. These assumptions are reasonable and currently not disprovable. I invited you try.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24665515#msg24665515
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24791749#msg24791749

Finally I outlined how one could make the case for God using an entirely empirical argument. You have chosen to ignore this argument.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24814642#msg24814642

Now it appears you are returning to attempts to challenge the existence of God by challenging the consistency of traditional holy texts. I have already demonstrated how traditional biblical writings on the timeline of creation and origins of mankind can in fact be reconciled with modern scientific thought and in response you appear have shifted your focus of criticism of the story of Adam and Eve.

Please clarify what exactly in biblical account of Adam and Eve are you objecting and why you feel this objection disproves God.

Why do you feel that humanity's flaws are evidence against an omniscient and omnipotent creator?

[Astargath]

...
I don't deny the possibility of some sort of being that created the universe and I can't disprove that. Religious gods on the other hand are always garbage.

the bible is extremely easy to prove wrong, I already showed you many examples of it's big big flaws. For instance, humans, God made humans purposely imperfect and then they failed by eating the fruit he told them not to, this already makes no sense if your god is omniscient and omnipotent. From there we have the same problems trough the whole bible
...

Given the length of this exchange a summary of what we have discussed so far is warranted.

Upthread I highlighted how we can mathematically deduce The Incompleteness of the universe and logically conclude that whatever is outside the universe must be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg23796852#msg23796852

I next highlighted how religious thought specifically monotheism conceptualises God and how this conceptualisation is consistent with what we can mathematically deduce.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24187846#msg24187846

I also demonstrated how traditional Biblical writings on the timeline of creation and origins of mankind can in fact be reconciled with modern scientific thought.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24374030#msg24374030

I reviewed the limitations of reason in understanding infinity and the fact that our understanding of God must necessarily be a massive oversimplification. God can never truly be grasped through our mind as our mind is time-bound.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24330562#msg24330562

Finally I noted the importance of truly drilling down to the foundations of ones metaphysical assumptions and how failure to do so was ceding control of ones actions, beliefs and thoughts to external forces.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24418501#msg24418501

At this point you asked to start the conversation over again.

Ok, let's start again.

We returned to the logic that allows us to mathematically deduce the incompleteness of the universe and reviewed it in greater depth reducing that logic down to its three primary assumptions. These assumptions are reasonable and currently not disprovable. I invited you try.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24665515#msg24665515
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24791749#msg24791749

Finally I outlined how one could make the case for God using an entirely empirical argument. You have chosen to ignore this argument.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24814642#msg24814642

Now it appears you are returning to attempts to challenge the existence of God by challenging the consistency of traditional holy texts. I have already demonstrated how traditional biblical writings on the timeline of creation and origins of mankind can in fact be reconciled with modern scientific thought and in response you appear have shifted your focus of criticism of the story of Adam and Eve.

Please clarify what exactly in biblical account of Adam and Eve are you objecting and why you feel this objection disproves God.

Why do you feel that humanity's flaws are evidence against an omniscient and omnipotent creator?

I have already shattered the ''logic'' used by perry marshall and you don't want to accept that. You are telling me that after 20 assumptions belief in god is logical, well my friend, that doesn't make much sense now, does it?

It's fairly simple, if god is omnipotent and omnipresent then there is no point for any of this, no point for humans to be waiting for god to comeback, why would he? No point in living this life because he already knows whether someone would go to hell or heaven. Adam and eve make no sense, how did they fail? Didn't they fail because god made them that way? If god knew they would fail, why make them and then punish them for something he already know would happen? It's garbage, you like logic so much, how is this logical to you?

Not to mention all the scientific errors in the bible + all the contradictions that I linked before.

[Ardan17]

Religion and health science have mutual support potential. The person who will perform the pilgrimage requires the role of tenagamedis to conduct a general check-up so that worship activities hajidapat running smoothly.
The tradition of fasting or diet is one therapy that has been recognized by the medical community in improving health. The true religious teachings have the potential to provide support to health.

[CoinCube]

I have already shattered the ''logic'' used by perry marshall and you don't want to accept that. You are telling me that after 20 assumptions belief in god is logical, well my friend, that doesn't make much sense now, does it?

It's fairly simple, if god is omnipotent and omnipresent then there is no point for any of this, no point for humans to be waiting for god to comeback, why would he? No point in living this life because he already knows whether someone would go to hell or heaven. Adam and eve make no sense, how did they fail? Didn't they fail because god made them that way? If god knew they would fail, why make them and then punish them for something he already know would happen? It's garbage, you like logic so much, how is this logical to you?

Not to mention all the scientific errors in the bible + all the contradictions that I linked before.

You shattered it huh? Well I suppose we are all giants in our own minds.

I would gently remind you that in our prolonged back and fourth above we reduced Perry Marshall's argument down to three primary assumptions. In most standard mathematical notations 3 < 20

I must also be the bearer of bad news. Although you have repeatedly refused to talk about what you believe in I must inform you that these beliefs whatever they may be are ultimately supported by primary assumptions.

Now on to your chief objection actually two objections.

1) You state that if God is omnipotent and omnipresent then there is no point to life for God already knows the outcome.  

2) You question the sin of Adam and Eve. You ask If God knew they would fail, why make them and then punish them.

For the sake of brevity let's address your first question now and once we are done with that we can return to the second objection in a later post.

To respond to your objection we must first understand the purpose of creation. I will quote the words of Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto who wrote an interesting book on this topic.

The Way of God (Chapter 2)

The Purpose of Creation

God's purpose in creation was to bestow His good to another.

God alone is true perfection, free of all deficiency, and there is no perfection comparable to Him. Any imaginable perfection, with the exception of God's, is therefore not true perfection, but it is only relative to something less perfect. Absolute perfection, however, is only That of God.

Since God desires to bestow good, a partial good would not be sufficient. The good that He bestows would have to be the ultimate good that His handiwork could accept. God alone, however, is the only true good, and therefore His beneficent desire would not be satisfied unless it could bestow that very good, namely the true perfect good that exists in His intrinsic Essence.

This is also true in another way. True good exists only in God. His wisdom therefore decreed that the nature of this true benefaction be His giving created things the opportunity to attach themselves to Him to Him to the greatest degree possible for them.

Therefore, even though created things cannot emulate God's perfection in their own right, the fact that they can be attached to Him allows them to partake of it, since they can be considered part of God's perfection as a result of their association with Him. They can thus derive pleasure from that true good to the greatest degree possible for them.

The purpose of all that was created was therefore to bring into existence a creature who could derive pleasure from God's own good, in a way that would be possible for it.

God's wisdom, however, decreed that for such good to be perfect, the one enjoying it must be its master. He must be one who has earned it for himself, and not one given it accidentally or by chance.

If you understand the above passage then you will have the answer to why there is a point to life even if the ultimate outcome is already known to God and not in doubt (see the bolded text above).

[Astargath]

I have already shattered the ''logic'' used by perry marshall and you don't want to accept that. You are telling me that after 20 assumptions belief in god is logical, well my friend, that doesn't make much sense now, does it?

It's fairly simple, if god is omnipotent and omnipresent then there is no point for any of this, no point for humans to be waiting for god to comeback, why would he? No point in living this life because he already knows whether someone would go to hell or heaven. Adam and eve make no sense, how did they fail? Didn't they fail because god made them that way? If god knew they would fail, why make them and then punish them for something he already know would happen? It's garbage, you like logic so much, how is this logical to you?

Not to mention all the scientific errors in the bible + all the contradictions that I linked before.

You shattered it huh? Well I suppose we are all giants in our own minds.

I would gently remind you that in our prolonged back and fourth above we reduced Perry Marshall's argument down to three primary assumptions. In most standard mathematical notations 3 < 20

I must also be the bearer of bad news. Although you have repeatedly refused to talk about what you believe in I must inform you that these beliefs whatever they may be are ultimately supported by primary assumptions.

Now on to your chief objection actually two objections.

1) You state that if God is omnipotent and omnipresent then there is no point to life for God already knows the outcome.  

2) You question the sin of Adam and Eve. You ask If God knew they would fail, why make them and then punish them.

For the sake of brevity let's address your first question now and once we are done with that we can return to the second objection in a later post.

To respond to your objection we must first understand the purpose of creation. I will quote the words of Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto who wrote an interesting book on this topic.

The Way of God (Chapter 2)

The Purpose of Creation

God's purpose in creation was to bestow His good to another.

God alone is true perfection, free of all deficiency, and there is no perfection comparable to Him. Any imaginable perfection, with the exception of God's, is therefore not true perfection, but it is only relative to something less perfect. Absolute perfection, however, is only That of God.

Since God desires to bestow good, a partial good would not be sufficient. The good that He bestows would have to be the ultimate good that His handiwork could accept. God alone, however, is the only true good, and therefore His beneficent desire would not be satisfied unless it could bestow that very good, namely the true perfect good that exists in His intrinsic Essence.

This is also true in another way. True good exists only in God. His wisdom therefore decreed that the nature of this true benefaction be His giving created things the opportunity to attach themselves to Him to Him to the greatest degree possible for them.

Therefore, even though created things cannot emulate God's perfection in their own right, the fact that they can be attached to Him allows them to partake of it, since they can be considered part of God's perfection as a result of their association with Him. They can thus derive pleasure from that true good to the greatest degree possible for them.

The purpose of all that was created was therefore to bring into existence a creature who could derive pleasure from God's own good, in a way that would be possible for it.

God's wisdom, however, decreed that for such good to be perfect, the one enjoying it must be its master. He must be one who has earned it for himself, and not one given it accidentally or by chance.

If you understand the above passage then you will have the answer to why there is a point to life even if the ultimate outcome is already known to God and not in doubt (see the bolded text above).

But why create humans that you know ultimately will fail and you want to send them to hell for eternal torture (which also makes no sense, eternal torture I mean) You are essentially creating millions and millions of people just to torture them in hell later on for something that is not their fault, god made them and god made the rules. What happens to all the other possible humans? Why are we the ones who exist and the others aren't? Just imagine if your parents had sex another day or month or didn't meet, the amount of different humans is almost infinite or infinite. What is god waiting for? Why is he waiting to come and take us to heaven? Is there a limit of how many people he can take there? There is absolutely no logic in any of this. Why does god need to forgive us if he already knows? Why is god attributed these silly emotions that only a mortal would have? Why would he send his ''son'' to sacrifice himself to himself in order to forgive us? Come on man, you gotta be kidding me, you really believe in this bullshit?

''I would gently remind you that in our prolonged back and fourth above we reduced Perry Marshall's argument down to three primary assumptions'' If you admit they are just assumptions then don't use it as evidence to say the belief in god is logical. It would only be logical if all the assumptions are correct. I can use X amounts of assumptions to prove the belief in magic unicorns is logical. It's pointless.

As for my beliefs, I don't have. Why would I believe in anything for no reason? I don't know what happens when we die, I know there is some scientific evidence pointing to ''nothing'' but there is also so many things we still don't know it's hard to say for sure that when someone dies nothing happens. Maybe something does happen, maybe something else changes in another dimension, who knows. There is no reason to believe in after life tho or heaven or reincarnation. You could accept them as wild possibilities but assuring to people that any of them are real is lying, to yourself and to everyone. I'm going to live my life the best I can. I don't see a reason not be a good person and at the same time enjoy life as much as possible and if there is some god out there that really cares about humans I should have no problems passing the test as I lived my life the best I could and I don't see a reason why a god would make me go to hell and torture me forever just because I don't believe in him or accept him. That's my ''belief''

[nagatraju]

body health is directly dependent on psychological health...and psychological health is built on our emotions and accordingly our beliefs and faith...if we can be calm enough throughout life, because we know that there is the very highest who is always just, then we will be physically healthy enough...and if we fight for life every day, believing that everything depends on us alone, then we can't live without stress, and stress destroys

[BADecker]

body health is directly dependent on psychological health...and psychological health is built on our emotions and accordingly our beliefs and faith...if we can be calm enough throughout life, because we know that there is the very highest who is always just, then we will be physically healthy enough...and if we fight for life every day, believing that everything depends on us alone, then we can't live without stress, and stress destroys

Right! After all, even science is a religion. See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1418441.msg25082912#msg25082912. And we look to science for ways to remain healthy. Then we follow things that a bunch of science researchers say, even though nobody knows if they are beneficial in the long run. Science and health work hand in hand.

In addition, up until the last 100 years or so, almost 100% of Chinese medical science revolved around health and nutrition. And it was all tied into their various religions. How did Chinese find out what worked? They did it through careful scientific examination: see the definition of science at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/science?s=t. This is exactly what Chinese medical health is all about. And it is all tied into their religions.

[CoinCube]

''I would gently remind you that in our prolonged back and fourth above we reduced Perry Marshall's argument down to three primary assumptions'' If you admit they are just assumptions then don't use it as evidence to say the belief in god is logical. It would only be logical if all the assumptions are correct. I can use X amounts of assumptions to prove the belief in magic unicorns is logical. It's pointless.

As for my beliefs, I don't have. Why would I believe in anything for no reason?

All knowledge is ultimately based on apriori truth Astargath. All empiricism can ever do is take you back to primary assumptions and then evaluate the consistency and fit of the model from the basis of those assumptions.

I explained this earlier in some depth.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24418501#msg24418501

Your response was:

That was some next level bullshit my friend, what the fuck are you even talking about.

You don't understand epistemology and metaphysics. That is ok but the problem with not understanding metaphysics is that we really can't get very far in discussions such as ours above. It is metaphysics that teaches us how to use our understanding. Without metaphysics there is no knowledge or proof.

Adam and eve make no sense, how did they fail? Didn't they fail because god made them that way? If god knew they would fail, why make them and then punish them for something he already know would happen? It's garbage, you like logic so much, how is this logical to you?

why create humans that you know ultimately will fail and you want to send them to hell for eternal torture (which also makes no sense, eternal torture I mean) in any of this... Why is god attributed these silly emotions that only a mortal would have? Why would he send his ''son'' to sacrifice himself to himself in order to forgive us? Come on man, you gotta be kidding me, you really believe in this bullshit?

Up until now (several pages of) answers and replies to you have been simple logic and deduction essentially IF -> THEN statements. However, I am not wise enough to answer these last questions in the same definitive manner. The best I can do is share my opinions on these issues. Perhaps that will be helpful.

On the question of Adam and Eve I believe the Bible/Torah is best understood as a functional document. It's intent and purpose is to redeem and rectify humanity.

For this to occur biblical wisdom must be conveyed in a manner that is both simplified enough to be understandable by primitive man while simultaneously accurately reflecting a truth which can be better understood as our wisdom grows. The best way to meet these two needs is via parable and metaphor.

(The reasoning below represents my opinions and speculations on these issues. I make no claims beyond that)

Adam and Eve in the garden can be looked at literally as a man and a woman walking through a garden and considering the fruit of various trees.

Or Adam and Eve can be looked at as a metaphor for our species progenitors. All choices were potentially open to our remotest ancestors but a singular choice namely the development of an intellect capable of understanding good and evil was "forbidden" as that choice leads to severe and inevitable consequences.

Many "punishments" outlined in the Bible are not necessarily outside intervention but simple cause and effect the inevitable consequences we bring upon ourselves from sin.

Let's look at the "punishment" women received as a result of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge.

Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children"

Why is childbearing in humans so painful? A religious man would have told you 1000 years ago that it was because Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. It has taken science a very long time to catch up to this very simplified but according to our current theories essentially accurate description.

Current science theory states that the reason human birth and labor is so painful and dangerous is due to the physiological consequences of our large brains specifically some combination of the physical limitations of pelvic size when walking upright and the extreme metabolic demands a large infant brain places on a mother.

See:
Why Is Human Childbirth So Painful?
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/why-is-human-childbirth-so-painful

For the most part God doesn't punish us we punish ourselves with our choices. Sometimes these "choices" were made long before our time but these the consequences nevertheless impact us.

Regarding eternal damnation not everyone who believes in God believes in eternal punishment and damnation. Some for example believe that hell is a very painful but temporary process. A purification process to remove falsehood and evil.

See:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm

Now unlike my prior posts which were simple logical deduction the arguments in this post are opinion. They are one possible interpretation. I have not proven this opinion is fact and am not in a position to do so currently. I share them as a potential answer to your questions but your questions are spiritual ones and must ultimately be answered on a personal and individual level.

[CoinCube]

I found this exchange between AgentofCoin and Hyperme.sh (One of Anonymint's recent  and now banned incarcerations) a fascinating read the exchange starts here.

Why hasn't any government stopped Bitcoin?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1972052.80

[qwik2learn]

I found this exchange between AgentofCoin and Hyperme.sh (One of Anonymint's recent  and now banned incarcerations) a fascinating read the exchange starts here.

Why hasn't any government stopped Bitcoin?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1972052.80

Does Anonymint now believe that bitcoin is part of a Satanic/Zionist plot? I have read about countless plots of that variety in the Phoenix Journals, and the solution is also described in some detail. I think Anonymint needs our support in order to create an alternative to the destructive forces of evil, I would like to reach him to offer some assistance, but he needs to stop arguing with people: it is not very productive.

[CoinCube]

I found this exchange between AgentofCoin and Hyperme.sh (One of Anonymint's recent  and now banned incarcerations) a fascinating read the exchange starts here.

Why hasn't any government stopped Bitcoin?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1972052.80

Does Anonymint now believe that bitcoin is part of a Satanic/Zionist plot? I have read about countless plots of that variety in the Phoenix Journals, and the solution is also described in some detail. I think Anonymint needs our support in order to create an alternative to the destructive forces of evil, I would like to reach him to offer some assistance, but he needs to stop arguing with people: it is not very productive.

Yep that's what it sounds like though that was not the part of the exchange I found most interesting. He is still around.His latest incarnation is "CornCube" which I think he chose to annoy me.

He can be reached by PM and also hangs out in the Dark Enlightenment thread.

[Astargath]

body health is directly dependent on psychological health...and psychological health is built on our emotions and accordingly our beliefs and faith...if we can be calm enough throughout life, because we know that there is the very highest who is always just, then we will be physically healthy enough...and if we fight for life every day, believing that everything depends on us alone, then we can't live without stress, and stress destroys

Right! After all, even science is a religion. See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1418441.msg25082912#msg25082912. And we look to science for ways to remain healthy. Then we follow things that a bunch of science researchers say, even though nobody knows if they are beneficial in the long run. Science and health work hand in hand.

In addition, up until the last 100 years or so, almost 100% of Chinese medical science revolved around health and nutrition. And it was all tied into their various religions. How did Chinese find out what worked? They did it through careful scientific examination: see the definition of science at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/science?s=t. This is exactly what Chinese medical health is all about. And it is all tied into their religions.

I don't see why anyone should trust a word you say, when you can't even do your own research like here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24869208#msg24869208 where you make a fool of yourself by linking an article that was literally the opposite of what you said it was true. You clearly can't do research, you are deluded.

[aesma]

The Christian religion talks about Man having free will. I think nihilism is exactly that : life has no purpose, be free to do whatever you want with it. Seems much more healthy than following all kinds of ridiculous religious rules, but that's just me.

I think even religious people should hope they're wrong, because none of them really manages to follow the rules, so if there is an heaven and a hell, the first one must be empty and the second one overcrowded.

Soren Kierkegaard, a famous 19th century existentialist philosopher, noted quite logically that religious people simply lived better lives, and whether or not there heaven or hell existed or not did not outweigh the cons of not believing in God.

His logic was simple, which he coined "the leap of faith:"

1. Believe in God, die, nothing happens.

2. Don't believe in God, die, nothing happens.
OR
1. Believe in God, die, go to heaven.

2. Don't believe in God, die, bathe in a lake of fire.

I actually wish I could be religious, but sadly, I'm a helpless empiricist. I know too much!

That's a retelling of the much more famous (and 2 centuries older) wager from Pascal : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Aesma I respect your position here as it was very similar to my own beliefs not all that long ago.

Here is some food for thought:

Regarding the lake of fire:

Not everyone who believes in God believes in eternal punishment and damnation. Many Jews for example believe that hell is a very painful but temporary process. A purification process to remove falsehood and evil.

See: Do Jews Believe in Hell?
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm

Since you are an empiricist here is my empirical argument in favour of religion.

1) Belief in God is logical in that the belief is internally consistent and cannot be falsified. This conclusion can be derived in numerous ways one of which is via the application of incompleteness theorem.
See: The #1 Mathematical Discovery of the 20th Century

2) All knowledge ultimately traces back to assumed axioms. Without knowledge, scientific enquiry including empiric enquiry is meaningless and we can’t analyse the world around us.

3) Our fundamental metaphysical first axioms are therefore a critical step in the formation of a sound empirical model of the universe and our place within it.
See: Metaphysical Attitudes

4) Human progress and civilisation requires the growth of knowledge and is ultimately cooperation dependent. Our first premises and axioms directly impact the degree of cooperation that the system can support.
See: Superrationality and the Infinite

5) Competing first axioms such as nihilism may grant "freedom" to do whatever you want but for humanity as a whole this is an illusion and such axioms reduce overall freedom.
See: Freedom and God

6) Thus the first axiom of God is not only largely responsible for the progress we have made so far it in all is likely necessary for continued progress.
See: Religion and Progress
and
See: Faith and Future

7) Finally and least important accepting the first axiom of God appears to be correlated with good health.   
See: Health and Religion

8 ) For these reason accepting the first axiom of God is a superior choice for the empiricist then accepting the first axiom of nihilism or refusing to define ones metaphysics.

Don't listen to him. He probably started believing in god because his family told to not because of the reasons mentioned above. He searched for those reasons because he had doubts about his beliefs and now claims that belief in god is the best choice. I already showed him it's not but you can't reason with these people.

Don't worry about me, I like to argue but there is no way to convince me with words.

Now if I could meet God, then maybe I'd believe in him/it.

[Opnsrc]

OMG, do really anybody here believes that religion affects healthy? It is ridiculous!

[Alexoxyevwii]

How does religion affect health? Or prayers? I think that only traditional healers help, but they have their own religion. And there are no gods, only spirits. Once I went to the healer. And it helped me)