Why I'm an atheist

[BADecker]

I believe all religion should be erradicated.

Why should we focus on the destruction of something, if we can focus on the creation of something beautiful? For example, we can start with ourselves, with our own irrational actions and thoughts, with our own lives, we can establish relationships with people around, etc. After all, society cannot be progressive when it focuses on the destruction and denial of something.
Science is good, good relations and mutual assistance are good. Let's look at the world in a positive way. Without paying attention to fanatics from religions or science, we can actually build a constructive society.

Denial of something? Your belief is just the same as my belief.
I believe working togheter is a must for humanity. I don't think mass brainwashing and control does any good.
Id rather kill myself than wasting any hours each sunday.
And im not up for making a point since it is known arguing with believers is just as pointless as arguing with shitheads on this forum.
Everyone is free to believe in whatever they want of course but no religion allows freedom and that is known, might have to ignore it when so many atheists around that they cannot oppress.

All people are given by God. The beginning of their first 9 months of life is when they know God solely. As they progress through the 9 months, they gradually learn to be distracted a little as their brains and senses form. Then, after they are born, they are thrown into a world of such distractions, that by the time they are an adult, most people don't remember God at all.

Yet it is God that holds each and every person. Thank Him that He is patient with you for the 7, 8, or more decades that you live... hoping that you will lose the distractions, and return to Him before it is to late for you.

If you honor Him by returning to Him, the Guy you knew all so well in the womb, He will give you great treasure in the next life.

I totally agree with you!
It is also important to understand that God is everywhere and in everything. Many people, unfortunately, do not understand that God is not a “human-like being who looks at us from heaven” in the sense in which people most often understand this. God cannot be described in words, we can only try to do it. God is Love, this is all the best that is in this world. God is in our kind words, in our actions. God is when you act according to conscience. God is when you are in harmony with yourself and with the whole world. God is the most powerful and sincere Love for all that exists. God does not go against science and rationalism. God is not from the material world, but everything in our world contains a part of God (except for negativity).
God is not what many people think. Just remember all the best that is in this world - this is God, that’s what it is. And when we do good things, we speak with God.
And it’s not necessary to call it all - God. He has different names, in many true religions, for example, people call it differently (due to different languages and culture). You can also call it all - Nature, the Universe, the Creator or just Love, etc. These are all the same words.

Thank you. And you are right. God is unimaginably far beyond all that we are, have been, and ever will be.

That being said, God did the almost unimaginable when He sent His Son Jesus in the form of humankind. God became man. And although the man part doesn't understand everything mentally, the God part is attached.

Further, God in the man Jesus, has called us all His brothers. So, even if we don't understand how to apply the God-part that we have been given, it is still there.

Keeping on topic, atheists are simply using their God-part to destroy itself and themselves.

[actmyname]

If the proof of existence is rooted in the object's definition itself, then the object has no foundation except for itself.
If we accept such a tautological concept, then there should be no reason to further disbelieve anything.
If we simply redefine any object X as "X, and also it exists," then we have created the required evidence.

Unfortunately, a system based on such logic would be subject to inconsistencies. Infinitely many inconsistencies, in fact.
For example, consider objects A and B. We have already applied the existence clause to both of these objects, thereby proving their existence.
Now, we consider objects A₀ and B₀.
A₀ := "A, but only if B₀ does not exist"
B₀ := "B, but only if A₀ does not exist"

Which takes precedence? It seems unclear.

[Lambowei]

It is also important to understand that God is everywhere and in everything.

There's nothing to "understand" about god, because there's no proof on whether it exists or not. The verb you should be using is "believe", not "understand".

[BADecker]

If the proof of existence is rooted in the object's definition itself, then the object has no foundation except for itself.
If we accept such a tautological concept, then there should be no reason to further disbelieve anything.
If we simply redefine any object X as "X, and also it exists," then we have created the required evidence.

Unfortunately, a system based on such logic would be subject to inconsistencies. Infinitely many inconsistencies, in fact.
For example, consider objects A and B. We have already applied the existence clause to both of these objects, thereby proving their existence.
Now, we consider objects A₀ and B₀.
A₀ := "A, but only if B₀ does not exist"
B₀ := "B, but only if A₀ does not exist"

Which takes precedence? It seems unclear.

And that exactly what the BADecker/CoinCube types assert.

Object X exists because someone long time ago said so. 

Today, many of these tap-dancing philosophers cannot even define what X is.

The best they can come up is a "feeling", aka a smart ape emotion.

Here's where you are missing it. Complexity.

We have binary for our computers... on and off. Great. We are doing things that we never dreamed of with binary.

Now we are getting into quantum... on and of at the same time. We will do great things with quantum.

But here is complexity. Complexity is binary with levels of on and off. Complexity is quantum with untold numbers of levels of on and off at the same time. Nature is full of this kind of complexity. We are finally starting to make computers with natures stuff... DNA.

The cute little equation...

Code:

A[sub]0[/sub] := "A, but only if B[sub]0[/sub] does not exist"
B[sub]0[/sub] := "B, but only if A[sub]0[/sub] does not exist"

doesn't fit reality at all... except, maybe, in the simplest, crudest fashion.

The question is, Where did the complexity come from that made the little, simple equation possible?

[actmyname]

The question is, Where did the complexity come from that made the little, simple equation possible?

Therefore, your argumentation for the proof of God's existence is...?

It can't possibly boil down to "complexity = God" right? That seems like a very strong non-sequitur.While you're considering this, allow me to present a thought experiment. Given the typical approach to the Abrahamic god, it is simple to create a utilitarian environment in which the highest number of people are given the best possible afterlife.

How do we do this? Simple! Maximize reproduction and infant mortality! We use one sinner to "carry our sins" and send as many people to heaven as possible. If they don't have time to turn against theism, then they won't have time to reduce their afterlife to that of hell!

That's what a truly moral person would do, were they to honestly believe in their Abrahamic religion.

[BADecker]

The question is, Where did the complexity come from that made the little, simple equation possible?

Therefore, your argumentation for the proof of God's existence is...?

It can't possibly boil down to "complexity = God" right? That seems like a very strong non-sequitur.While you're considering this, allow me to present a thought experiment. Given the typical approach to the Abrahamic god, it is simple to create a utilitarian environment in which the highest number of people are given the best possible afterlife.

How do we do this? Simple! Maximize reproduction and infant mortality! We use one sinner to "carry our sins" and send as many people to heaven as possible. If they don't have time to turn against theism, then they won't have time to reduce their afterlife to that of hell!

That's what a truly moral person would do, were they to honestly believe in their Abrahamic religion.

Your thinking in this first part isn't complex enough. Exhaust comes from a car. Does this mean that the exhaust is the car?

Whatever God actually is, there is no way for people with their simple intelligence to know. People can't even figure out the complexity that comes from God.If the operation of the universe, the goals that God has, the thing that people are, the way God has placed Himself into the universe with His strength, and a whole host of other things, were the simple way you picture the Abrahamic religion, why even make the universe? Why not make people to be in Heaven without a universe at all?

Since God made things way more complex than the simplicity you are talking about, time for you to calculate why God would do this. Perhaps you can become a bit more realistic in the things you say.

As God says through the prophet Isaiah, Isaiah 55:9:

As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

As God says through the psalmist, King David, Psalm 103:11:

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;

You really need to see how great the complexity around us really is!

[actmyname]

I'm not sure why you're telling me that people can't comprehend God and then following up with a description for what God does. Which is it?

[BADecker]

I'm not sure why you're telling me that people can't comprehend God and then following up with a description for what God does. Which is it?

Go outside into a field, or simply stand on the side of the highway. Look at the ground. You can see it. You can dig up a little soil and have it analyzed. But nobody knows for sure what is down there inside the earth. And nobody really knows anything about the stars that they see in the sky. All of our understanding about these things is guesstimations.

We can see and understand a little about the earth and about God. But like we don't really understand what the earth is all about, we don't really have a clue about God. The little we know about Him is what He has seen fit to tell us in the Bible. This ties in to the complexity thing in my previous post.

[actmyname]

Assuming that your idea of God is partially comprehensible, how can you be sure of anything in absolution? Let us not confine ourselves to those known unknowns, but expand our horizons to search for the unknown unknowns.

I do wonder, however, why the bible is a beacon or anchor of absolute information.
Considering the fact that there doesn't seem to be any divine intervention against the possibility of alterations thereof, it seems odd to place such a degree of power upon such a piece of literature.

Let us observe this case:

Let the original bible in its purest form be decreed B.
Early civilizations happen upon B and transcribe the contents onto a copy: B₀.
Apart from having been man-made, B₀ is indistinguishable from B.
Through circumstance, the original text B is lost and irrecoverable.
Future transcriptions are fitted to a variety of languages, of which differ in semantics and syntax.
Due to these differences, increased variation in interpretation between B₀ and its successors is inevitable.
Unfortunately, through passage of time, B₀ and successors continually decay and are eventually unreadable.
Despite best efforts, human error occurs, reducing accuracy between transcriptions by up to 1% for each iteration.
As B_i approaches infinity (where i := iteration #) we note that the probability of having B_i representative of the original text B approaches 0 in response.One final remark: if we cannot pragmatically distinguish the empirical relevance of an object X's existence as opposed to its non-existence, then whether it exists or whether it does not exist is of no relevance to our lives.

That is, if you can't consistently measure any result derived from a belief in a proposition P, then its truth value is of no pragmatic significance.
Example: toilet demons exist and will eat your flesh, but only in the year 3000.

[actmyname]

Add to it, Bijkl variations and you get the whole picture.

I wish to simplify the argument by creating instances in which the religious doctrines are as protected as possible. Introducing further variables allows for the possibility of strawman accusations, of which would further skew the conversation.

Thus the omission thereof allows us to tackle one instrumental part of the belief at a time, reducing the probability of fallacious deflections or altered representations of the topic.Meaningless trivia: yeah, I believe in the concept of God, though my definition and implications thereof are almost certainly different from every other individual on this planet. What are they, you might ask? Not telling!

[BADecker]

Assuming that your idea of God is partially comprehensible, how can you be sure of anything in absolution? Let us not confine ourselves to those known unknowns, but expand our horizons to search for the unknown unknowns.

Sounds good. Let’s not confine ourselves to saying things that might have a hundred different meanings. Anybody who knows some things about God, doesn’t know everything about God. Same with science, or the car you drive. So, what in the world are you talking about?

I do wonder, however, why the bible is a beacon or anchor of absolute information.
Considering the fact that there doesn't seem to be any divine intervention against the possibility of alterations thereof, it seems odd to place such a degree of power upon such a piece of literature.

The Bible is the Word of God. If there are alterations, the alterations aren’t the Word of God. Even the Book of Mormon has some Bible wording in it. The Dead Sea Scrolls show that changes to the true Bible are only cosmetic.

Let us observe this case:

Let the original bible in its purest form be decreed B.
Early civilizations happen upon B and transcribe the contents onto a copy: B₀.
Apart from having been man-made, B₀ is indistinguishable from B.
Through circumstance, the original text B is lost and irrecoverable.
Future transcriptions are fitted to a variety of languages, of which differ in semantics and syntax.
Due to these differences, increased variation in interpretation between B₀ and its successors is inevitable.
Unfortunately, through passage of time, B₀ and successors continually decay and are eventually unreadable.
Despite best efforts, human error occurs, reducing accuracy between transcriptions by up to 1% for each iteration.
As B_i approaches infinity (where i := iteration #) we note that the probability of having B_i representative of the original text B approaches 0 in response.

The one thing that you are forgetting is that God is maintaining His Word. If this has suddenly become some kind of a test for the authenticity of the Bible, there is a lot more that shows that the Bible is real and that we can see that God is real because of what the Bible is. You need to look at the whole history of Israel, and the kind of people they are to understand this.

The thing you are talking about in its simplicity is, if you hold up two apples, and they both are essentially the same, this doesn’t tell us which tree or trees they come from. But this is irrelevant to the existence of God.

The difference with the Word of God is this. The history displayed by the Bible is destruction for people who do not follow God, but well being for those who follow Him. When you study who Israel is, you find that they don’t lie in their Bible writing.

One final remark: if we cannot pragmatically distinguish the empirical relevance of an object X's existence as opposed to its non-existence, then whether it exists or whether it does not exist is of no relevance to our lives.

That is, if you can't consistently measure any result derived from a belief in a proposition P, then its truth value is of no pragmatic significance.
Example: toilet demons exist and will eat your flesh, but only in the year 3000.

Now you are talking about science theory. Big Bang Theory destroys Big Bang at the same time it develops it. So, where did this whole universe come from, since it obviously didn't come from BB?

Complexity always comes from same or greater complexity. When simplicity brings about complexity, there was a far greater complexity that “programmed” the simplicity to do this. The fact of entropy shows that there is always a decline of complexity.

Apply complexity to everything... not only lab chemicals and pharmaceuticals. Apply it to mind as well. The Mind that made the setting up and the coming into being of the minds of all human beings, has to be greater than the minds of all human beings. We never see complexity coming from simplicity except that there is greater complexity behind the whole thing making it to happen that way. There is no example of complexity coming from simplicity anywhere.

God’s mind made our minds... but at least set things up so that our minds would exist. If you don’t like the word “God,” find other words that show His greatness to describe Him.

[BADecker]

Add to it, Bijkl variations and you get the whole picture.

I wish to simplify the argument by creating instances in which the religious doctrines are as protected as possible. Introducing further variables allows for the possibility of strawman accusations, of which would further skew the conversation.

Thus the omission thereof allows us to tackle one instrumental part of the belief at a time, reducing the probability of fallacious deflections or altered representations of the topic.Meaningless trivia: yeah, I believe in the concept of God, though my definition and implications thereof are almost certainly different from every other individual on this planet. What are they, you might ask? Not telling!

Scientific investigation shows that God exists. The universe is a machine. Machines are designed and built. Has nothing to do with religions or religious writings.

[actmyname]

The one thing that you are forgetting is that God is maintaining His Word. If this has suddenly become some kind of a test for the authenticacy of the Bible, there is a lot more that shows that the Bible is real and that we can see that God is real because of what the Bible is. You need to look at the whole history of Israel, and the kind of people they are to understand this.

History, as we know, can be fabricated. Consider: if one has not independently verified with their own empirical senses the existence of some object X, then the proof they rely upon must come from others. Secondary evidence, proven only by the assertion of external sapience.

The thing you are talking about in its simplicity is, if you hold up two apples, and they both are essentially the same, this doesn’t tell us which tree or trees they come from. But this is irrelevant to the existence of God.

Unfortunately, through simplicity, you have strawmanned my case from that of a transformation to merely comparing two copies. Perhaps expanding the case to the entirety of the Bible creates this difference in logic, therefore I shall strip away the majority of these words and merely focus on a single line thereof:

Genesis 28, NIV: "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Unsure of what you consider the original text, I have chosen the New International Version. If you wish to refute the authenticity thereof, we may use a line of your choice, but bear in mind that a refutation to its validity should in fact encompass the scenario I explained in my post.

We can apply a linguistic form of the Ship of Theseus puzzle onto this text, transforming it over the years:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (original)
God blessed them and said unto them, "be fruitful and multiply, replenish the earth and subdue it: rule over fish, over birds, and over every moving organism on Earth." (transformation #1)
God blessed them and said, "reproduce, regrow, rule." (transformation #2) -- further reduction in information results in a distortion of the text, creating vastly different interpretations and eliminating the original meaning.
Heavenly father bestowed upon them blessings and decreed, "repopulate Earth, maintain its infrastructure, control with absolution the life on Earth." (transformation #3)
Dad of the Clouds blessed our kind, proclaiming, "give birth to new life, keep the Earth alive, eliminate free will on Earth." (transformation #4)
Father Francis blessed our people, providing us three rules: "maximize homo sapien zygotes, maintain the planet's core, maximize allegiance to the Father" (transformation #5)

It appears that in our final transformation, an authoritarian ruler has modified the text for his own nefarious purposes.
Given the limit of the human lifespan, if given enough time between transformations, there will be a continuous transition in which the people are able to accept such texts as the word of God.
Despite not actually being the word of God, people who are in a closed system of communication have no way of accessing the true nature/texts of God.
Through no fault of their own, they have accepted a false reality. Through no fault of their own, they are to burn in Hell for eternity (assuming your Biblical representation of punishment is true)

Though, I didn't actually need to create these transformations: we have real-life examples revolving around Yahweh with differing texts: the Torah, Quran, and Bible in their various forms.
Moreover, even in Christianity itself there appear to be many clashing and conflicting sects.

Now you are talking about science theory. Big Bang Theory destroys Big Bang at the same time it develops it. So, where did this whole universe come from?

I have not mentioned the Big Bang. I do not assume anything in particular about the creation of the universe.

Complexity always comes from same or greater complexity. When simplicity brings about complexity, there was a far greater complexity that “programmed” the simplicity to do this. The fact of entropy shows that there is always a decline of complexity.

Can you define complexity? I also don't see any clear logical progression for your assertions.

"Complexity always comes from same or greater complexity" - how?

(I'm asking for two things here: first being a definition for complexity, the second being the syllogism of which you drew your conclusion)

There is no example of complexity coming from simplicity anywhere.

Just because you can't see, measure, comprehend, or otherwise verify something does not mean that its non-existence is certain. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, right? After all, if we were to claim such a thing, then why would the same logic not apply to your idea of God?

But let's not get ahead of ourselves here! Consider this possible case:

In all of history, humanity has not encountered an elephant.
Humanity has toyed around with the notion of such an animal but has never gathered empirical data for such an organism.
Therefore, there is no example of an elephant anywhere.
Therefore, we assert that elephants do not exist.

Now, if we change the words around in relation to what you said, we can arrive at this series of propositions and conclusions.

In all of history, humanity has not encountered an example of 'complexity coming from simplicity' anywhere.
Humanity has toyed around with the notion of such an idea but has never gathered empirical data for such an event.
Therefore, there is no example of 'complexity coming from simplicity' anywhere.
Therefore, we assert that 'complexity coming from simplicity' does not exist.

Before you balk at the comparison between elephants and ideas/concepts, note that the elephant example can be replaced with any other concept. It is merely in this form to simplify understanding.

Scientific investigation shows that God exists. The universe is a machine. Machines are designed and built. Has nothing to do with religions or religious writings.

Proposition 1: The universe is a machine.
Proposition 2: Machines are designed and built.
Conclusion: God exists.

If this is an inaccurate representation of your argument, then forgive my transgression for I know not the word of the Lord as well as you do.
If, however, it is an accurate representation of your argument, then I ask for validity of the propositions and the causative logic between the two and the conclusion.


Four different sections here to deconstruct. We should not let them intermingle since that only complicates the relevant discourse upon each subject.

And yes, I'm even not going for the infinite regress refutation... we all know to expect goalpost movement and special clause additions (despite the incomprehensible nature of the entity).

[BADecker]

The one thing that you are forgetting is that God is maintaining His Word. If this has suddenly become some kind of a test for the authenticacy of the Bible, there is a lot more that shows that the Bible is real and that we can see that God is real because of what the Bible is. You need to look at the whole history of Israel, and the kind of people they are to understand this.

History, as we know, can be fabricated. Consider: if one has not independently verified with their own empirical senses the existence of some object X, then the proof they rely upon must come from others. Secondary evidence, proven only by the assertion of external sapience.

That's what I have been trying to tell you. The Dead Sea Scrolls show that Ancient Israel was in the habit of duplicating their God-writings virtually perfectly. The nature of the people of ancient Israel with regard to the words of God was to treat God's words as holy. Why did they do this? Three basic reasons:
1. Their punishment when they didn't obey God;
2. The national memory of the power shown by Moses;
3. The strength of the faith of Father Abraham.

The thing you are talking about in its simplicity is, if you hold up two apples, and they both are essentially the same, this doesn’t tell us which tree or trees they come from. But this is irrelevant to the existence of God.

Unfortunately, through simplicity, you have strawmanned my case from that of a transformation to merely comparing two copies. Perhaps expanding the case to the entirety of the Bible creates this difference in logic, therefore I shall strip away the majority of these words and merely focus on a single line thereof:

Genesis 28, NIV: "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Unsure of what you consider the original text, I have chosen the New International Version. If you wish to refute the authenticity thereof, we may use a line of your choice, but bear in mind that a refutation to its validity should in fact encompass the scenario I explained in my post.

We can apply a linguistic form of the Ship of Theseus puzzle onto this text, transforming it over the years:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (original)
God blessed them and said unto them, "be fruitful and multiply, replenish the earth and subdue it: rule over fish, over birds, and over every moving organism on Earth." (transformation #1)
God blessed them and said, "reproduce, regrow, rule." (transformation #2) -- further reduction in information results in a distortion of the text, creating vastly different interpretations and eliminating the original meaning.
Heavenly father bestowed upon them blessings and decreed, "repopulate Earth, maintain its infrastructure, control with absolution the life on Earth." (transformation #3)
Dad of the Clouds blessed our kind, proclaiming, "give birth to new life, keep the Earth alive, eliminate free will on Earth." (transformation #4)
Father Francis blessed our people, providing us three rules: "maximize homo sapien zygotes, maintain the planet's core, maximize allegiance to the Father" (transformation #5)

It appears that in our final transformation, an authoritarian ruler has modified the text for his own nefarious purposes.
Given the limit of the human lifespan, if given enough time between transformations, there will be a continuous transition in which the people are able to accept such texts as the word of God.
Despite not actually being the word of God, people who are in a closed system of communication have no way of accessing the true nature/texts of God.
Through no fault of their own, they have accepted a false reality. Through no fault of their own, they are to burn in Hell for eternity (assuming your Biblical representation of punishment is true)

Though, I didn't actually need to create these transformations: we have real-life examples revolving around Yahweh with differing texts: the Torah, Quran, and Bible in their various forms.
Moreover, even in Christianity itself there appear to be many clashing and conflicting sects.

In all of these things, the complexity of them is one of the things that shows the existence of God.

No matter what appears to be contradictory, the fact of the reality of it all shows the existence of God.

If the focus is on the failures and fallacies of men, one will see failure and fallacies.

Entropy doesn't produce complexity.

Now you are talking about science theory. Big Bang Theory destroys Big Bang at the same time it develops it. So, where did this whole universe come from?

I have not mentioned the Big Bang. I do not assume anything in particular about the creation of the universe.

Yet it is the time of the creation that you chose for your Bible words, above. Creation of the universe is probably the most common of the dynamic things that God did. So, I can understand why you would not want to focus there.

Complexity always comes from same or greater complexity. When simplicity brings about complexity, there was a far greater complexity that “programmed” the simplicity to do this. The fact of entropy shows that there is always a decline of complexity.

Can you define complexity? I also don't see any clear logical progression for your assertions.

"Complexity always comes from same or greater complexity" - how?

(I'm asking for two things here: first being a definition for complexity, the second being the syllogism of which you drew your conclusion)

How? Cause and effect.
Syllogism? See in the Off-Topic section, the thread entitled Scientific proof that God exists? - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.0.

There is no example of complexity coming from simplicity anywhere.

Just because you can't see, measure, comprehend, or otherwise verify something does not mean that its non-existence is certain. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, right? After all, if we were to claim such a thing, then why would the same logic not apply to your idea of God?

Check out Scientific proof that God exists? - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.0, and apply the proof for God in everything that you know exists.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves here! Consider this possible case:

In all of history, humanity has not encountered an elephant.
Humanity has toyed around with the notion of such an animal but has never gathered empirical data for such an organism.
Therefore, there is no example of an elephant anywhere.
Therefore, we assert that elephants do not exist.

Now, if we change the words around in relation to what you said, we can arrive at this series of propositions and conclusions.

In all of history, humanity has not encountered an example of 'complexity coming from simplicity' anywhere.
Humanity has toyed around with the notion of such an idea but has never gathered empirical data for such an event.
Therefore, there is no example of 'complexity coming from simplicity' anywhere.
Therefore, we assert that 'complexity coming from simplicity' does not exist.

Before you balk at the comparison between elephants and ideas/concepts, note that the elephant example can be replaced with any other concept. It is merely in this form to simplify understanding.

Your elephant story is fun. We can design stories all day about what might possibly happen. But the way it works in reality is that we find the skeletons and footprints of the dinosaurs. Then, even though we have seen none of them, we make an educated guess as to what they looked like, and start drawing picture of them and sculpting their bodies in 3D physical form.

Scientific investigation shows that God exists. The universe is a machine. Machines are designed and built. Has nothing to do with religions or religious writings.

Proposition 1: The universe is a machine.
Proposition 2: Machines are designed and built.
Conclusion: God exists.

If this is an inaccurate representation of your argument, then forgive my transgression for I know not the word of the Lord as well as you do.
If, however, it is an accurate representation of your argument, then I ask for validity of the propositions and the causative logic between the two and the conclusion.

You sound knowledgeable. If you don't know about all the various forms of "levers," etc., found in nature, there is a science class somewhere, and there are various science encyclopedias and other science books. All the machines of man are built using the machine actions found in the universe. It's all machinery.

We aren't sure who built the Antikythera mechanism. But, it has the kind of appearance that would cause us to deduce that people built it. Also, all its movements are kinds of movements that we find in nature, even though it doesn't have the appearance of something that came about naturally.

Somebody "big" enough to create the universe machine wouldn't make the machines of mankind. But mankind is constantly trying to catch up to Him in the machines mankind is developing.

Four different sections here to deconstruct. We should not let them intermingle since that only complicates the relevant discourse upon each subject.

And yes, I'm even not going for the infinite regress refutation... we all know to expect goalpost movement and special clause additions (despite the incomprehensible nature of the entity).

Solomon was right when he said, "The more the words, the less the meaning." The point is atheism. The search for proof for or against God is secondary. Atheism is fueled by the desire for God to not exist. But there isn't even any deductive reasoning that shows that God, for sure, doesn't exist.  In fact, just the opposite.

[actmyname]

In lieu of the responses, I posit a simple question:

Which epistemological branch do you fall under?

Do you believe in:

1. An infinite regression, which appears because of the necessity to go ever further back, but is not practically feasible and does not, therefore, provide a certain foundation.
2. A logical circle in the deduction, which is caused by the fact that one, in the need to found, falls back on statements which had already appeared before as requiring a foundation, and which circle does not lead to any certain foundation either.
3. A break of searching at a certain point, which indeed appears principally feasible, but would mean a random suspension of the principle of sufficient reason.

These correspond to the regressive, circular, and axiomatic arguments respectively. For further information one can consult the article for Münchhausen trilemma.

The one thing that you are forgetting is that God is maintaining His Word. If this has suddenly become some kind of a test for the authenticacy of the Bible, there is a lot more that shows that the Bible is real and that we can see that God is real because of what the Bible is. You need to look at the whole history of Israel, and the kind of people they are to understand this.

History, as we know, can be fabricated. Consider: if one has not independently verified with their own empirical senses the existence of some object X, then the proof they rely upon must come from others. Secondary evidence, proven only by the assertion of external sapience.

That's what I have been trying to tell you. The Dead Sea Scrolls show that Ancient Israel was in the habit of duplicating their God-writings virtually perfectly. The nature of the people of ancient Israel with regard to the words of God was to treat God's words as holy. Why did they do this? Three basic reasons:
1. Their punishment when they didn't obey God;
2. The national memory of the power shown by Moses;
3. The strength of the faith of Father Abraham.

If the proof for perfect Biblical replication lay with the Dead Sea Scrolls, then we have a further regression: what, then, is the proof that the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves were not falsely replicated?

The answer to this should correspond to your answer in relation to my first question.
If the scrolls are axiomatic, then we are assuming that the scrolls are an absolute truth without evidence.
If the scrolls prove themselves, then we should carry similar logic to other circular arguments which may or may not be false.
If the scrolls are proven by something else, referred-to now as object S₀, then we run into a similar, recursive argument for S₀... then S₁, S₂, all the way down.Before we tackle the other points I wish to focus on simply one, as that will make the discussion more streamlined and succinct.

[BADecker]

In lieu of the responses, I posit a simple question:

Which epistemological branch do you fall under?

Do you believe in:

The proof for the Dead Sea Scrolls is God, of course. However, the odds, while they are probably low enough in this case to not be proof (as science considers proof by odds), are definitely high enough to make believers out of anybody who sees them and is honest with himself.

As we saw in the Scientific proof that God exists? thread, the system of this universe, which is based on cause-and-effect combined with entropy combined with complexity, in the way that they are combined in this universe, absolutely proves the existence of God. How? There is no other way for the universe to exist as it does without a God Being. The machine qualities of the universe are simply the evidence for folks who can't think deeply enough to understand this combining.

Of course, God doesn't have to be called "God" to be God. The word "God" - especially these days - has many connotations attached to it that are not necessarily applicable to the Being we call God. So, use a better word. The Great First Cause is a form I like somewhat. While it doesn't have much of the meaning for God that other words might, it's appeal lies in the idea that God is original, before all, made it all, and set everything into motion.

It's rather unfortunate for you that you seem to like to drag the idea of God down into all kinds of simplistic ideas and formulas where you can split Him apart. You won't ever be able to do this - split God apart. All you are doing is a placement focus. It's like government regulating drugs, cars, guns, and loads of other things. Government doesn't regulate these things - although government people might if they handle them. All that government is doing is regulating people, and taking their focus off this fact, and making it look like they are regulating other things of life. What YOU are really doing is taking your own focus off God, to focus on yourself as though you were God.

The fact that we can think and choose shows that God exists in each of us. When we set ourselves in the position of atheism, all we are really doing is attempting to set ourselves in a position of God higher than the God of the universe. BUT... what we are really doing when we do this, is setting ourselves lower than the position that God made us for.

This reminds me of a cute little story I used in the evolution thread. I'll repeat it here, between the lines, so that you can ignore it easier if you want.


In some galaxy far, far away, evolution proceeded much faster than in our galaxy, and here on Earth. The intelligent beings of one planet in that faraway galaxy, were exceptionally fast in their development. In fact, they were so fast, that they were bordering on becoming disembodied intelligences.

Then one day, the final mutation happened in one of them. This being evolved past the point where it needed a body to be alive. Not only this, but it also evolved to the point where it could actually control the space-time continuum.

Looking back on its fellow creatures, it felt rather sorry for them in their slow, forward, evolution advancing. It also felt sorry for the many other species of intelligence throughout its home galaxy, and even the whole universe. So, it decided to do something about the situation of all this slow evolution throughout the universe... so that creatures all over could become as wonderful as it had become.

What did it do? It turned itself from 'it' to 'It'. Using Its ability to control space-time, It got rid of evolution entirely - like evolution never existed - and replaced evolution with creation. Why creation? Because rather than the slow billions of years for advancement, advancement could come in a few thousand years.

When we see evolution, yet can't seem to find enough details to make anything out of it with certainty, it's only because there are a few dregs of the way the universe was in the past, that still remain.


Isn't it time that we cast aside the religion that is against God, and embrace the reality of the existence of God? Why focus on the beating down something that can't be destroyed, while only destroying ourselves instead?

Hopefully God will continue to give us enough further time to focus on Him rather than ourselves.

[josephsonand]

It is also important to understand that God is everywhere and in everything.

There's nothing to "understand" about god, because there's no proof on whether it exists or not. The verb you should be using is "believe", not "understand".

As I wrote before, those who understand the essence of religions, faith, various spiritual practices and other things, understand that from the beginning it is always said that there is an omnipresent God. I have already drawn your attention several times to the fact that this is not a separate being. For example, you understand that in life there are such concepts as Love, as conscience, etc. And you don't question these concepts. So, initially in religions it is said precisely that these concepts are different sides of one general concept of "God." For example, you say, “I sincerely love this world,” and the other person says, “I speak with God.” These are just different words of one. The concept of "God" is everywhere in rare manifestations. This is what religions says, and not about the "man in heaven who rules us."

[actmyname]

The proof for the Dead Sea Scrolls is God, of course. However, the odds, while they are probably low enough in this case to not be proof (as science considers proof by odds), are definitely high enough to make believers out of anybody who sees them and is honest with himself.

I once again ask for your answer to the simple multiple-choice question. This will facilitate further understanding.

As of this current point, it is still unclear whether you are entering an infinite regress, an axiomatic claim, or in the midst of a circular argument.

Of course, God doesn't have to be called "God" to be God. The word "God" - especially these days - has many connotations attached to it that are not necessarily applicable to the Being we call God. So, use a better word. The Great First Cause is a form I like somewhat. While it doesn't have much of the meaning for God that other words might, it's appeal lies in the idea that God is original, before all, made it all, and set everything into motion.

Interesting. What makes you inclined to your branch of Biblical representation thereof as opposed to any other representation of God is what I'm trying to grasp, however.

It's rather unfortunate for you that you seem to like to drag the idea of God down into all kinds of simplistic ideas and formulas where you can split Him apart.

That is not what I am doing and if you have made this assumption then I would be happy to elaborate on the specific passage of which you made this conclusion.

The fact that we can think and choose shows that God exists in each of us.

I can only assume you are referring to a concept of free will, which we have yet to define.

Then one day, the final mutation happened in one of them. This being evolved past the point where it needed a body to be alive. Not only this, but it also evolved to the point where it could actually control the space-time continuum.

This is an interesting theory albeit unclear in its origin.

Isn't it time that we cast aside the religion that is against God, and embrace the reality of the existence of God? Why focus on the beating down something that can't be destroyed, while only destroying ourselves instead?

Are all organized religions against your idea of God? Which particular set of dogmas and beliefs is the correct one to follow?

[Lambowei]

actmyname don't try to argue with BADecker, it's useless. Unfortunately for him, he's not that bright up there.

[actmyname]

actmyname don't try to argue with BADecker, it's useless. Unfortunately for him, he's not that bright up there.

It matters not: these discussions serve another benefit to my own education. Refinement of philosophical understanding comes much more easily when you have someone to discuss them with, and given BADecker's eagerness thereof, I consider him a fairly apt partner for this purpose.