Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

[bitcoiner49er]

Well a ups cargo jet crashed today, hopefully our chips were not on it.

FTFY. Instant refund if they were. Does DHL use UPS freight?

DHL has their own planes...

[KyrosKrane]

Legal action is something that WILL get people's attention. Why should YiFu be allowed to get off with no consequences? Sure, future business may be affected. Although IF there is a legit, proven Avalon 2 Gen that is not a pre-order; don't you think that people will flock to it?
Many times, companies settle out of court as well. Personally I think that BitSyncom/YiFu would need to quickly reconsider under strong legal action.

Ok, fine. If this is what you believe, then put up or shut up. Go hire a lawyer and do it yourself. Quit demanding that others do it for you.

Then come back and tell us what your lawyer thinks of this proposition and your chances of collecting anything.

[silicont]

As a member of a group buy, I think the only legal recourse would be against the group buy organizer.  After all, we don't have receipts for the huge purchases.  And depending on one's investment size, legally it might just end up in small claims court.  Talk about blowing Judge Wapner's mind!  The group buy organizer is the one who would have the economics of size to pursue Avalon.

[ik2013]

So is this recent ramp up in BTC price attributed to the increasing difficulty or something else? We might yet be able to see ROI if we keep this upward momentum

[ik2013]

As a member of a group buy, I think the only legal recourse would be against the group buy organizer.  After all, we don't have receipts for the huge purchases.  And depending on one's investment size, legally it might just end up in small claims court.  Talk about blowing Judge Wapner's mind!  The group buy organizer is the one who would have the economics of size to pursue Avalon.

Put down the pitchforks and torches buddy

[bigbeninlondon]

So is this recent ramp up in BTC price attributed to the increasing difficulty or something else? We might yet be able to see ROI if we keep this upward momentum

Maybe in dollars.  But that sucks because if I had known I would have just held on to my bitcoins.

[dentldir]

You're right, it sucks.

I've been to court and guess what, you mostly lose money and time, on the oft chance that once you get what you lost back. But mostly, you just lose time and money.

A class action would be something different, but that would only be for revenge's sake as you will probably not see a penny/satoshi.

This.  If you haven't been through it, you don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes.  And its one expensive hole leading to a guaranteed loss.  IANAL and this isn't advice, but here is how I see it:

After 3 years of paying lawyers at say 2.5 BTC an hour, you would get to watch all your claims slowly fall apart.  You aren't just paying for a trial, you are paying for choosing the venue, precedence research, discovery, depositions, affidavits, expert witnesses, smaller issues with magistrates judges, settlement negotiations, and any other number of seemingly unrelated items.

With that in mind:

Breach of contract requires Avalon acting in bad faith.  That's too a high bar to hit if they shipped any chips at all.  Which they have.

You'd have to prove that the group buy customers had no reasonable expectation that there was the possibility of a loss.  You'd have to prove that somehow, we were misled and unaware of the risks in making the purchase and that Avalon misrepresented those risks.  Which you can't.

The time based loss is actually because of customs and isn't covered in the contract.  You can't claim tortious interference by customs, which is actually the tort that applies IMHO.  It's their job to stop things and inspect them coming into the country.

Measuring damages means a numerical analysis of what is lost to make you whole.  If you get your boards at all anytime soon, your damage is zero in the written context of the agreement.  I can't stress that enough: ZERO.

If you can magically persuade a court that you are owed damages on the time based loss, then you have to do the math on that too.  That loss is not the emotional zero people are claiming.  Its the expected value of running the miner for the intended amount of time and it will be measured in dollars.  This loss is smaller than you'd expect.

So do whatever you want, but legal action is the single worst idea I've seen in this thread so far.  Negotiating some remedy with Avalon actually has a non-zero chance of yielding results.  Legal action only gets you further in the hole.

[bitcoiner49er]

You're right, it sucks.

I've been to court and guess what, you mostly lose money and time, on the oft chance that once you get what you lost back. But mostly, you just lose time and money.

A class action would be something different, but that would only be for revenge's sake as you will probably not see a penny/satoshi.

This.  If you haven't been through it, you don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes.  And its one expensive hole leading to a guaranteed loss.  IANAL and this isn't advice, but here is how I see it:

After 3 years of paying lawyers at say 2.5 BTC an hour, you would get to watch all your claims slowly fall apart.  You aren't just paying for a trial, you are paying for choosing the venue, precedence research, discovery, depositions, affidavits, expert witnesses, smaller issues with magistrates judges, settlement negotiations, and any other number of seemingly unrelated items.

With that in mind:

Breach of contract requires Avalon acting in bad faith.  That's too a high bar to hit if they shipped any chips at all.  Which they have.

You'd have to prove that the group buy customers had no reasonable expectation that there was the possibility of a loss.  You'd have to prove that somehow, we were misled and unaware of the risks in making the purchase and that Avalon misrepresented those risks.  Which you can't.

The time based loss is actually because of customs and isn't covered in the contract.  You can't claim tortious interference by customs, which is actually the tort that applies IMHO.  It's their job to stop things and inspect them coming into the country.

Measuring damages means a numerical analysis of what is lost to make you whole.  If you get your boards at all anytime soon, your damage is zero in the written context of the agreement.  I can't stress that enough: ZERO.

If you can magically persuade a court that you are owed damages on the time based loss, then you have to do the math on that too.  That loss is not the emotional zero people are claiming.  Its the expected value of running the miner for the intended amount of time and it will be measured in dollars.  This loss is smaller than you'd expect.

So do whatever you want, but legal action is the single worst idea I've seen in this thread so far.  Negotiating some remedy with Avalon actually has a non-zero chance of yielding results.  Legal action only gets you further in the hole.

Small claims court petition is being prepared. I'll keep you informed. 

[driksson]

months and months held in us customs other group buy, verified by john k:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2933981#msg2933981

Can Steamboat check the same??

[Xian01]

Small claims court petition is being prepared. I'll keep you informed. 

 Against who ?! I hope Yifu and not Steamboat...

[powpow]

Small claims court petition is being prepared. I'll keep you informed. 

 Against who ?! I hope Yifu and not Steamboat...

This would be my answer to the complaint:

1.  No fiduciary relationship with plaintiff.

Then, it would end -- because group buy members have no contract with Yifu..

[User705]

Small claims court petition is being prepared. I'll keep you informed. 

 Against who ?! I hope Yifu and not Steamboat...

This would be my answer to the complaint:

1.  No fiduciary relationship with plaintiff.

Then, it would end -- because group buy members have no contract with Yifu..

Against whoever you can find and serve.  Also small claims courts have a wide latitude regarding these things.  Lawyers aren't even allowed so you'd be surprised what you can accomplish there.  It's pretty cost effective as well.

[driksson]

Small claims court petition is being prepared. I'll keep you informed. 

 Against who ?! I hope Yifu and not Steamboat...

This would be my answer to the complaint:

1.  No fiduciary relationship with plaintiff.

Then, it would end -- because group buy members have no contract with Yifu..

please read the no bullshit terms. its enough..

[cardcomm]

months and months held in us customs other group buy, verified by john k:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2933981#msg2933981

Can Steamboat check the same??

Yeah, I agree. If our chips are in fact stuck in customs, we should have details about the shipments by now.

Steamboat, will you PLEASE investigate the alleged "stuck in customs" problem more deeply and post an update here? With the amount of money on the line in just our collective batches, we are big enough customers to warrant a personal response from Yifu and Co. I believe it is time to DEMAND that level of communication, at the very least. And if it takes threatening civil or criminal proceedings to accomplish that, so be it.

If it's explicitly verified that out chips ARE stuck in customs, I'm in agreement with waiting for delivery. But the BLIND waiting must end. It's time BitSyncom provide explicit proof of the status of our specific chips.

PS -- If I were the one with the purchase contract with BitSyncom, I would have already contacted the appropriate District Attorney to open a fraud investigation.

[Kapz786]

You guys are naïve to think steamboat is some how going to be able to contact Yifu and persuade him to provide us with information.

I am more concerned about steamboat letting us know how progress is going when chips do arrive. Are we 100% ready to go within 24 hrs of receiving them for units to be assembled or tested?

[bystander]

months and months held in us customs other group buy, verified by john k:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2933981#msg2933981

Can Steamboat check the same??

Yeah, I agree. If our chips are in fact stuck in customs, we should have details about the shipments by now.

Steamboat, will you PLEASE investigate the alleged "stuck in customs" problem more deeply and post an update here? With the amount of money on the line in just our collective batches, we are big enough customers to warrant a personal response from Yifu and Co. I believe it is time to DEMAND that level of communication, at the very least. And if it takes threatening civil or criminal proceedings to accomplish that, so be it.

If it's explicitly verified that out chips ARE stuck in customs, I'm in agreement with waiting for delivery. But the BLIND waiting must end. It's time BitSyncom provide explicit proof of the status of our specific chips.

PS -- If I were the one with the purchase contract with BitSyncom, I would have already contacted the appropriate District Attorney to open a fraud investigation.

Yes, I agree as well.  For their group buy, apparently some person named Gary is an account manager who informed them of the 2-month customs situation, they will soon meet with the Director of US Customs of NY to discuss the situation.

"So Gary and his company, they're all having a special meeting next Wednesday together with the Director of the US Customs of New York. "

[Boxman90]

It's starting to concern me more each and every day how steamboat just doesn't answer questions and proposals in this topic. Like he's gone from the face of the earth.

He also doesn't reply to emails and personal messages anymore, while his profile says he's online every day.

I invested my money with him, so him going silent worries me most.

[rammy2k2]

It's starting to concern me more each and every day how steamboat just doesn't answer questions and proposals in this topic. Like he's gone from the face of the earth.

He also doesn't reply to emails and personal messages anymore, while his profile says he's online every day.

I invested my money with him, so him going silent worries me most.

Imagine there are hundreds like u, what do u think he can say ? he's waiting for the damn chips ... leave the man alone...

[Unacceptable]

It's starting to concern me more each and every day how steamboat just doesn't answer questions and proposals in this topic. Like he's gone from the face of the earth.

He also doesn't reply to emails and personal messages anymore, while his profile says he's online every day.

I invested my money with him, so him going silent worries me most.

Imagine there are hundreds like u, what do u think he can say ? he's waiting for the damn chips ... leave the man alone...

What should he do?? Waste money on a lawyer?? Not just yet..............................

[driksson]

It's starting to concern me more each and every day how steamboat just doesn't answer questions and proposals in this topic. Like he's gone from the face of the earth.

He also doesn't reply to emails and personal messages anymore, while his profile says he's online every day.

I invested my money with him, so him going silent worries me most.

Imagine there are hundreds like u, what do u think he can say ? he's waiting for the damn chips ... leave the man alone...

What should he do?? Waste money on a lawyer?? Not just yet..............................

Waste three minutes daily, on his 6x770BTC (where 6x70BTC is his) partners/clients who invested in his groupbuys & update the OP?