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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
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Author Topic: [40+ PH] SlushPool (slushpool.com); World's First Mining Pool  (Read 3859420 times)
dmwardjr
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October 15, 2014, 05:18:23 PM
 #19341

Of course not, just like I can't guarantee with 100% certainty that Slush wasn't fiddling with his new quantum computer module the week before when we were at 200% luck for the week.

Shifting the goalposts to be about professionalism aside, the original observation remains valid. Every time there's a long block pages of posts pop up talking about how something must be broken, or Slush is playing games, or whatnot. It won't change of course, I imagine this conversation will die down soon until the next time we get a 99%+ block, at which point new people will be talking about how Slush broke the pool or is stealing everyone's money.

For those who have seen it all and got the t-shirt, I suppose it would be in order to simply ignore those "annoying" posts accussing Slush of everything under the sun for the sake of their sanity. Barring which, be prepared to batten down for the storm if you talk down to the ignorants ...

LOL

You can call me Mr. Ignorance from now own, pekatete.

Sure, it could very well be a string of bad luck at the moment.

I understand perfectly well about GHash adding more of their own miners, as well as "UNKNOWNS" adding more hashing power, which in turn would affect Slush's ability to find more blocks by decreasing Slush's percentage of over all hashing power from lets say 6% to 5 % of the total BTC mining network.

It could very well be a string of bad luck.

Forgive me IF my comment about Slush's back end possibly being down "maybe" [we'll never know].  I'll stop making comments like those.

With that aside, I still think I made the correct decision to mine elsewhere, as I'm BETTING THE LUCK elsewhere will be a little better than at Slush today.  When I play Texas No Limit Holdem, I PLAY FOR LUCK, so to speak.  That is pretty much the same thing I'm doing when I mine.  However, I'm not a hopper, in the sense of using a program to quickly switch from one pool to another.  It's like I wake up each day and wonder, "Which pool am I putting my bets on TODAY to be lucky."

By the way, it won't be long before I have a "T-Shirt" as well.  So, bare with me.  LOL

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October 15, 2014, 05:23:40 PM
 #19342

Offsubject, anyone else experience very slow transaction conformation times in the last couple of hours? I've made 3 purchases from 2 different wallets and none have confirmed at all. SLOW today!!!

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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October 15, 2014, 05:31:52 PM
 #19343

Sure, it could very well be a string of bad luck at the moment.

I understand perfectly well about GHash adding more of their own miners, as well as "UNKNOWNS" adding more hashing power, which in turn would affect Slush's ability to find more blocks by decreasing Slush's percentage of over all hashing power from lets say 6% to 5 % of the total BTC mining network.

It could very well be a string of bad luck.
That's not how it works. The only thing that affects the number of blocks found (besides luck) is the pool hashrate and the current difficulty. Other pools could add an Exahash/s of equipment and it wouldn't affect how many blocks Slush mines (at least until the difficulty adjusts). Conversely, every other pool could cease to exist and the only thing mining on the network is Slush's ~10PH/s, and we would still find one block every five hours or so.

tl;dr - Luck or hashrate at other pools makes no difference in the short term. The only thing that matters is the current hashrate and difficulty.
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October 15, 2014, 05:35:55 PM
 #19344

Offsubject, anyone else experience very slow transaction conformation times in the last couple of hours? I've made 3 purchases from 2 different wallets and none have confirmed at all. SLOW today!!!

Actually, that happened to me 2 days ago from my last payout from slush. I did eventually confirm, but it took unusually long to.

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October 15, 2014, 05:39:27 PM
 #19345


tl;dr - Luck or hashrate at other pools makes no difference in the short term. The only thing that matters is the current hashrate and difficulty.

Do you care to throw some light on how Slush computes their pool luck then? Surely, network hash-rate is a factor (not mathematically speaking, but could also be!).

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October 15, 2014, 05:53:52 PM
 #19346


tl;dr - Luck or hashrate at other pools makes no difference in the short term. The only thing that matters is the current hashrate and difficulty.

Do you care to throw some light on how Slush computes their pool luck then? Surely, network hash-rate is a factor (not mathematically speaking, but could also be!).
I'm not sure exactly what he uses for his time averaging. Network hashrate is a factor in that it will eventually affect difficulty, but it's not a factor in and of itself. All that matters is the number of shares submitted, and the current difficulty which only changes once every ~14 days.

On a per block basis, you can just use diff/shares. If you want an average over a few blocks, just use #blocks * difficulty / total shares.
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October 15, 2014, 06:02:37 PM
 #19347


tl;dr - Luck or hashrate at other pools makes no difference in the short term. The only thing that matters is the current hashrate and difficulty.

Do you care to throw some light on how Slush computes their pool luck then? Surely, network hash-rate is a factor (not mathematically speaking, but could also be!).

I know I'm not the one the question was pointed towards.  However, I did mention this in several other posts in the past.

The hash rate has EVERYTHING to do with it.  They would have to have a program that keeps up with the hourly total pool hash rate in the same way they  have a program that computes the hourly hash rate of individual workers.

FIRST, lets say slush averaged 8 PH/s TOTAL hash rate from 00:01am at the beginning of the day till 24:00pm at the end of the day.  

At present difficulty [35,002,482,026], that is approximately 5 hours, 13 minutes time for each block found (can vary greatly depending on our luck).  

To be at 100% Luck for THAT 24 HOUR DAY [while averaging 8 PH/s for the entire day] we would need to find [24 hours divided by 5.21666667 hours] = 4.60063897 blocks for it to be 100% LUCK for THAT 24 hour period.  Hence, you hardly ever see exactly 100% for 1 day luck.  WHY?  Cause we can't find 60% of a block.  We can only find a "whole" block.  You might see 100% for 7 day or 1 month, but not 1 day luck.  That would be a rare occasion indeed.

Slush's "Luck" percentage for 1 day can also vary every hour IF they are computing this based on an "hourly" hash rate average.

The source I use to determine how many blocks on average that can be found for a "given" amount of hash rate is located at the following address:

http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/   IF it does not load when you first navigate there, refresh the page and it should appear.  You enter in the difficulty and the hash rate.  No need to enter in the other data unless you are interested in your own profitability factor.  The only thing we are concerned with is "How long it takes the pool to find a block on average for a given amount of hash rate of the pool."

The following answer was given for 8000 Th/s (8 Ph/s):

Difficulty   35,002,482,026.00
Mining Factor 100   0.00 USD/24h@100MHash/s as in these charts
Average generation time for a block (solo)   5 hours, 13 minutes (can vary greatly depending on your luck)
Hardware break even   1 day
Net profit first time frame   3890503.64 USD

You can come up with these figures for ANY pool you desire by first entering in an approximate average hash rate of the pool.  Then, if you like, you can determine the average payout for your personal hash rate at that pool by staying at the pool for 24 hours.  Once you know your payout based on shares [considering if the hash rate is the same average as your previous calculation], you can multiply the average pay out by the average number of blocks found for each day.  Then multiply that answer by 30 days and you have an average payout for a month for that pool.

Example:

[Slush] 4.60063897 blocks x .01452471 average shares with 4.67 TH/s = 0.06682295 BTC average each day.  That would be 2.00468841 BTC in 30 days (1 month).

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October 15, 2014, 06:25:57 PM
 #19348

I know I'm not the one the question was pointed towards.  However, I did mention this in several other posts in the past.

The hash rate has EVERYTHING to do with it.  They would have to have a program that keeps up with the hourly total pool hash rate in the same way they  have a program that computes the hourly hash rate of individual workers.

FIRST, lets say slush averaged 8 PH/s TOTAL hash rate from 00:01am at the beginning of the day till 24:00pm at the end of the day.  

At present difficulty [35,002,482,026], that is approximately 5 hours, 13 minutes time for each block found (can vary greatly depending on our luck).  

To be at 100% Luck for THAT 24 HOUR DAY [while averaging 8 PH/s for the entire day] we would need to find [24 hours divided by 5.21666667 hours] = 4.60063897 blocks for it to be 100% LUCK for THAT 24 hour period.  Hence, you hardly ever see exactly 100% for 1 day luck.  WHY?  Cause we can't find 60% of a block.  We can only find a "whole" block.  You might see 100% for 7 day or 1 month, but not 1 day luck.  That would be a rare occasion indeed.

Slush's "Luck" percentage for 1 day can also vary every hour IF they are computing this based on an "hourly" hash rate average.

The source I use to determine how many blocks on average that can be found for a "given" amount of hash rate is located at the following address:

http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/   IF it does not load when you first navigate there, refresh the page and it should appear.  You enter in the difficulty and the hash rate.  No need to enter in the other data unless you are interested in your own profitability factor.  The only thing we are concerned with is "How long it takes the pool to find a block on average for a given amount of hash rate of the pool."

The following answer was given for 8000 Th/s (8 Ph/s):

Difficulty   35,002,482,026.00
Mining Factor 100   0.00 USD/24h@100MHash/s as in these charts
Average generation time for a block (solo)   5 hours, 13 minutes (can vary greatly depending on your luck)
Hardware break even   1 day
Net profit first time frame   3890503.64 USD
You're looking at it backwards. Slush has no way of knowing what the hashrate pointed at his pool is. All he can see is the number of shares he has received, and then he infers the hashrate from that. He doesn't need to do that though other than as a convenience to users that he just added in the last couple months. All he needs to calculate luck is the number of shares, the number of blocks found, and the difficulty.
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October 15, 2014, 06:29:56 PM
 #19349

I know I'm not the one the question was pointed towards.  However, I did mention this in several other posts in the past.

The hash rate has EVERYTHING to do with it.  They would have to have a program that keeps up with the hourly total pool hash rate in the same way they  have a program that computes the hourly hash rate of individual workers.

FIRST, lets say slush averaged 8 PH/s TOTAL hash rate from 00:01am at the beginning of the day till 24:00pm at the end of the day.  

At present difficulty [35,002,482,026], that is approximately 5 hours, 13 minutes time for each block found (can vary greatly depending on our luck).  

To be at 100% Luck for THAT 24 HOUR DAY [while averaging 8 PH/s for the entire day] we would need to find [24 hours divided by 5.21666667 hours] = 4.60063897 blocks for it to be 100% LUCK for THAT 24 hour period.  Hence, you hardly ever see exactly 100% for 1 day luck.  WHY?  Cause we can't find 60% of a block.  We can only find a "whole" block.  You might see 100% for 7 day or 1 month, but not 1 day luck.  That would be a rare occasion indeed.

Slush's "Luck" percentage for 1 day can also vary every hour IF they are computing this based on an "hourly" hash rate average.

The source I use to determine how many blocks on average that can be found for a "given" amount of hash rate is located at the following address:

http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/   IF it does not load when you first navigate there, refresh the page and it should appear.  You enter in the difficulty and the hash rate.  No need to enter in the other data unless you are interested in your own profitability factor.  The only thing we are concerned with is "How long it takes the pool to find a block on average for a given amount of hash rate of the pool."

The following answer was given for 8000 Th/s (8 Ph/s):

Difficulty   35,002,482,026.00
Mining Factor 100   0.00 USD/24h@100MHash/s as in these charts
Average generation time for a block (solo)   5 hours, 13 minutes (can vary greatly depending on your luck)
Hardware break even   1 day
Net profit first time frame   3890503.64 USD
You're looking at it backwards. Slush has no way of knowing what the hashrate pointed at his pool is. All he can see is the number of shares he has received, and then he infers the hashrate from that. He doesn't need to do that though other than as a convenience to users that he just added in the last couple months. All he needs to calculate luck is the number of shares, the number of blocks found, and the difficulty.

I'm telling you "hash rate" will affect how many "shares" you have.  One can "over clock" their miners to the point of having all kinds of rejects, stales, duplicates, etc... and their shares will increase "in spite of the duplicates, rejects, stales, etc...

I gave you my calculations on what I "THINK" is the way they compute it.  I report, you decide.   LOL

Also, IF you know, why bother asking?

Also, you said, "Slush has no way of knowing what the hashrate pointed at his pool is."

Really?



What the heck is that you are seeing after being on the pool for 60 Minutes IF it is not hash rate?

 If I can see my hash rate, THEY can certainly see my own hash rate.  

IF they can see MY hash rate, THEY can certainly see everyone else's!

WHY SO OBJECTIVE?  Can you not keep an open mind?  Do you have everything figured out?  

I think you need to take that damn T-Shirt off!

EVERY POOL LETS YOU KNOW WHAT THEIR HASH RATE IS.

LOOK:







All of these are proof they KNOW the hash rate.

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October 15, 2014, 06:44:22 PM
 #19350

I'm telling you "hash rate" will affect how many "shares" you have.  One can "over clock" their miners to the point of having all kinds of rejects, stales, duplicates, etc... and their shares will increase "in spite of the duplicates, rejects, stales, etc...

I gave you my calculations on what I "THINK" is the way they compute it.  I report, you decide.   LOL

Also, IF you know, why bother asking?
I didn't ask, pekatete did.

Slush doesn't count rejects or duplicates in his numbers. Again, Slush doesn't know a user's hashrate, just their number of accepted shares. Up until a month or two ago he didn't even provide a hashrate estimation on his website, just the number of shares for the current round. Yes your hashrate will dictate the number of shares you have, but that is not something Slush has access to.
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October 15, 2014, 06:44:47 PM
 #19351

May I just say, I am of that generation where we used to do calculus on paper and were banned (in exams) from using calculators. in the same breath, the link to the site does not reveal how they compute their numbers, simply plug in a few numbers and you have a result ... ! As such, I still am at a loss as to how pool luck is calcullated!

EDIT: I just hit upon a plan, I'll rephrase my question: How do I find out what a pool's luck is?

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October 15, 2014, 06:49:23 PM
 #19352

May I just say, I am of that generation where we used to do calculus on paper and were banned (in exams) from using calculators. in the same breath, the link to the site does not reveal how they compute their numbers, simply plug in a few numbers and you have a result ... ! As such, I still am at a loss as to how pool luck is calcullated!

If you want a quick check, you can look at Eligius.
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/blocks.php
The luck number listed for each block is just Difficulty/shares

You can also look at Organ of Corti's blog.
http://organofcorti.blogspot.com.au/
Quote
"Luck" is the usual difficulty 1 equivalent shares per round / mining difficulty,  or (equivalently) accepted shares / expected shares.

Edit: Note that OoC expresses the luck the opposite way, in which <1 is lucky and >1 is unlucky. The calculation is the same though.
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October 15, 2014, 06:51:51 PM
 #19353

May I just say, I am of that generation where we used to do calculus on paper and were banned (in exams) from using calculators. in the same breath, the link to the site does not reveal how they compute their numbers, simply plug in a few numbers and you have a result ... ! As such, I still am at a loss as to how pool luck is calcullated!

If you want a quick check, you can look at Eligius.
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/blocks.php
The luck number listed for each block is just Difficulty/shares

You can also look at Organ of Corti's blog.
http://organofcorti.blogspot.com.au/
Quote
"Luck" is the usual difficulty 1 equivalent shares per round / mining difficulty,  or (equivalently) accepted shares / expected shares.

Right, I shall cease asking difficult questions ..... that's it.

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October 15, 2014, 07:01:37 PM
 #19354

I'm telling you "hash rate" will affect how many "shares" you have.  One can "over clock" their miners to the point of having all kinds of rejects, stales, duplicates, etc... and their shares will increase "in spite of the duplicates, rejects, stales, etc...

I gave you my calculations on what I "THINK" is the way they compute it.  I report, you decide.   LOL

Also, IF you know, why bother asking?
I didn't ask, pekatete did.

Slush doesn't count rejects or duplicates in his numbers. Again, Slush doesn't know a user's hashrate, just their number of accepted shares. Up until a month or two ago he didn't even provide a hashrate estimation on his website, just the number of shares for the current round. Yes your hashrate will dictate the number of shares you have, but that is not something Slush has access to.

Then we agree that "hash rate" is very important in determining shares, which in turn determines the percentage for pool luck?  There is no computation program that I know of that will determine the length of time it would take to find a block based on number of shares.  All of them I know of determine this based on hash rate... PERIOD!  They do say, "can very greatly depending on luck."  I say it can also vary greatly depending on the "quality" of the miners mining.  If they are over clocked to the point of having one stale after another, HW too high, etc... one's ability to find a block "solo" is diminished; and one's ability to build up sufficient amount of shares in a pool is diminished.

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October 15, 2014, 07:03:14 PM
 #19355

I'm telling you "hash rate" will affect how many "shares" you have.  One can "over clock" their miners to the point of having all kinds of rejects, stales, duplicates, etc... and their shares will increase "in spite of the duplicates, rejects, stales, etc...

I gave you my calculations on what I "THINK" is the way they compute it.  I report, you decide.   LOL

Also, IF you know, why bother asking?
I didn't ask, pekatete did.

Slush doesn't count rejects or duplicates in his numbers. Again, Slush doesn't know a user's hashrate, just their number of accepted shares. Up until a month or two ago he didn't even provide a hashrate estimation on his website, just the number of shares for the current round. Yes your hashrate will dictate the number of shares you have, but that is not something Slush has access to.

How do they not have access to it, if THEY are the one's giving MINE to me?

LOOK at the "header" above the box for your workers in "account."  Then tell me what it says...

It says, "Total average hash rate in last 60 minutes."

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October 15, 2014, 07:06:11 PM
 #19356

May I just say, I am of that generation where we used to do calculus on paper and were banned (in exams) from using calculators. in the same breath, the link to the site does not reveal how they compute their numbers, simply plug in a few numbers and you have a result ... ! As such, I still am at a loss as to how pool luck is calcullated!

If you want a quick check, you can look at Eligius.
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/blocks.php
The luck number listed for each block is just Difficulty/shares

You can also look at Organ of Corti's blog.
http://organofcorti.blogspot.com.au/
Quote
"Luck" is the usual difficulty 1 equivalent shares per round / mining difficulty,  or (equivalently) accepted shares / expected shares.

Right, I shall cease asking difficult questions ..... that's it.

Whatever...

I think you just enjoy trying to criticize someone you don't like for whatever reason.

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October 15, 2014, 07:08:43 PM
 #19357

May I just say, I am of that generation where we used to do calculus on paper and were banned (in exams) from using calculators. in the same breath, the link to the site does not reveal how they compute their numbers, simply plug in a few numbers and you have a result ... ! As such, I still am at a loss as to how pool luck is calcullated!

If you want a quick check, you can look at Eligius.
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/blocks.php
The luck number listed for each block is just Difficulty/shares

You can also look at Organ of Corti's blog.
http://organofcorti.blogspot.com.au/
Quote
"Luck" is the usual difficulty 1 equivalent shares per round / mining difficulty,  or (equivalently) accepted shares / expected shares.

Right, I shall cease asking difficult questions ..... that's it.

Whatever...

I think you just enjoy trying to criticize someone you don't like for whatever reason.

Now what did I say that's got you up in arms againt me?
EDIT: Like I said, I asked how to compute luck and all I got was how to get the luck. We have all the numbers that we believe make up the calculation of luck, but NOT the formula (well, just a link to a page to plug the numbers in!).

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October 15, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
 #19358

I'm telling you "hash rate" will affect how many "shares" you have.  One can "over clock" their miners to the point of having all kinds of rejects, stales, duplicates, etc... and their shares will increase "in spite of the duplicates, rejects, stales, etc...

I gave you my calculations on what I "THINK" is the way they compute it.  I report, you decide.   LOL

Also, IF you know, why bother asking?
I didn't ask, pekatete did.

Slush doesn't count rejects or duplicates in his numbers. Again, Slush doesn't know a user's hashrate, just their number of accepted shares. Up until a month or two ago he didn't even provide a hashrate estimation on his website, just the number of shares for the current round. Yes your hashrate will dictate the number of shares you have, but that is not something Slush has access to.

Then we agree that "hash rate" is very important in determining shares, which in turn determines the percentage for pool luck?  There is no computation program that I know of that will determine the length of time it would take to find a block based on number of shares.  All of them I know of determine this based on hash rate... PERIOD!  They do say, "can very greatly depending on luck."  I say it can also vary greatly depending on the "quality" of the miners mining.  If they are over clocked to the point of having one stale after another, HW too high, etc... one's ability to find a block "solo" is diminished; and one's ability to build up sufficient amount of shares in a pool is diminished.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The average number of difficulty1 shares needed to find a block is equal to the difficulty. IE, on average you currently need ~35B diff1 shares. Your mining software infact lists your hashrate based on the number of accepted shares. Download the source of cgminer and look at how it actually goes about finding that hashrate number it displays.

How do they not have access to it, if THEY are the one's giving MINE to me?

LOOK at the "header" above the box for your workers in "account."  Then tell me what it says...

It says, "Total average hash rate in last 60 minutes."
It's a derived number. Slush takes your number of shares in the last 60 minutes, divides it by 3600 to get the number of shares/sec, multiplies it by 2^32, and displays that as your hashrate.
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The Few, The Proud, The BTC


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October 15, 2014, 07:18:06 PM
 #19359

May I just say, I am of that generation where we used to do calculus on paper and were banned (in exams) from using calculators. in the same breath, the link to the site does not reveal how they compute their numbers, simply plug in a few numbers and you have a result ... ! As such, I still am at a loss as to how pool luck is calcullated!

EDIT: I just hit upon a plan, I'll rephrase my question: How do I find out what a pool's luck is?

WOW, REALLY?

LOL

I've gone to several sites with similar computation programs and they all give very similar, if not the same exact answer.

The following thread will tell you the same about answering difficulty with hash rate computations.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7531.0

Also, if you go back to the link I suggested for Bitcoin mining profitability, he explains how he comes up with it.  You ask a question, I provide you with info, YET you want take the time to look at it Mr. Calculus.

BTC ADDRESS: 1HBSBwbFDg2XQii8cNJGAhLyd2mFS4jbG9
MrTeal
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October 15, 2014, 07:20:37 PM
 #19360

EDIT: Like I said, I asked how to compute luck and all I got was how to get the luck. We have all the numbers that we believe make up the calculation of luck, but NOT the formula (well, just a link to a page to plug the numbers in!).

No, that is the formula. It's just not a difficult one. The luck value that pools use is just the number of shares they expect a block to take (IE, the difficulty), divided by the number of shares it actually took.

If you want to do it over some random time interval, it's just the number of blocks you found in that time, times the difficulty, divided by the total shares. It gets a little more difficult when the difficulty changes, but you just divided it into two separate terms at that point.
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