[ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread

[EskimoBob]

Not sure, wtf you guys are whining about any more? (except the shitty PR and lack of reporting)

Only question now, is can ActiveMining pull of the following: "52 week total earnings" divided by "number of shares outstanding" is equal or grater than "current share price"
In real world, this is usually 3-5 years earnings but in BTC reality, with a serious case of ADD, even 52 weeks is unimaginable long time for most noobs

Currently Actm has 9972881 shares outstanding (btct 3074084+ bitfunder 6898797)
So, this is  9972881*0.0040=39891,524*BTC:USD or 117.

39892*117=4 667 364 USD

to make 4 667 364 USD profit (after all the expenses), how many units they need to sell in a year?

[1714959062]

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[1714959062]

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[1714959062]

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[somestranger]

Certainly quite a few units would have to be sold (this would require guessing how much they will cost in the future when network difficulty increases.. very difficult), but you also need to take into account the mining revenues which should be quite nice when we will get the chips at cost. I think at .003 we will definitely see a return on investment in a year from now.

[EskimoBob]

I ran some numbers for fun, excluding possible profits form mining

Code:

Product                       Revenue         profit      Cost     Markup %   Cross margin   Units sold Profit earn
Fast-Hash One Silver Edition   1774.29        709.716   1064.574     66.67%        40.00%        901     639454.116
Fast-Hash One Gold Edition     3704.05        1481.62    2222.43     66.67%        40.00%        700    1037134
Fast-Hash One Platinum Edition 5699.05        2279.62    3419.43                                 485    1105615.7
                                                                                                    
Fast-Hash-One Silver 64 GH/s      1299          519.6      779.4     66.67%        40.00%        901     468159.6
Fast-Hash-One Gold 128 GH/s       2499          999.6     1499.4     66.67%        40.00%        700     699720
Fast-Hash-One Platinum 256 GH/    3699         1479.6     2219.4     66.67%        40.00%        485     717606
                                                                                         Total  Profit: 4667689.416

This is total of 4172 units. Because nothing will happen before December, they have about 37 weeks to sell it all.
To produce 112.756 units per week is probably no big deal but can you actually sell all that hardware? This is 112.76 units every week, nonstop.
BTW, this is about 550 Thash of mining power. The whole network today is ticking at 692.909 Thash/s.

Margin Formulas/Calculations:

    The gross profit P is the difference between the cost to make a product C and the selling price or revenue R.
        P = R - C
    The mark up percentage M is the profit P divided by the cost C to make the product.
        M = P / C = ( R - C ) / C
    The gross margin percentage G is the profit P divided by the selling price or revenue R.
        G = P / R = ( R - C ) / R

EDIT: Some say that $1.50 per Gh is about right expense. It is hard to believe but updated calculations are here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252531.msg3106707#msg3106707
Please ignore the raving lunatics like Stuartuk and zumzero in following pages. Yes, it is embarrassing indeed.

[Vigil]

Allow inter-exchange share transfers -> BTCT and BF. What argument is there against this?

Will this ever be possible??

Im arbing all my shares and picking up a few extra thousand for free

How?

Sell 1000 Shares on BTCT.
Buy 1300 Shares on Bitfunder.


 

That is not arbitrage.

Arbitrage would be buying 1300 shares on BitFunder at say .0025 and selling them on BTCT for .003. Then sending the bitcoins you earned from selling on BTCT back to Bitfunder to buy 1600 shares at .0025 and then selling those shares on BTCT again. You do this until the price difference no longer allows a profit.

Arbitrage is not simply the act of buying more shares on one exchange than you had on another. You are missing an entire step in the process, i.e., the transfer of the cheaper "good" over to the exchange which is paying more to make the sale.

"In economics and finance, arbitrage /ˈɑrbɨtrɑːʒ/ is the practice of taking advantage of a price difference between two or more markets: striking a combination of matching deals that capitalize upon the imbalance, the profit being the difference between the market prices. When used by academics, an arbitrage is a transaction that involves no negative cash flow at any probabilistic or temporal state and a positive cash flow in at least one state; in simple terms, it is the possibility of a risk-free profit at zero cost. For instance, an arbitrage is present when there is the opportunity to instantaneously buy low and sell high."


There is no official mechanism for arbitrage so what people are calling arbitrage in the Bitcoin ecosystem is as close as we currently can get to what fiat institutions have. Further, the only inaccuracy I can see in calling what is described here arbitrage is that it is not instant or guaranteed. It was highly unlikely that the 35% spread yesterday would close before my coin transferred, though.

All this to say that arbitrage does not need to be cyclical to be called "arbitrage". It can be one trade from one exchange to the other that nets you a return due to the price spread.

TL;DR This IS arbitrage.

The definition you quoted is correct, your statements are incorrect. The exchange between the markets needs to take place. There is no way to guarantee that the price on each exchange will at some point be equivalent because they are isolated markets (there is no way to transfer goods from one to the other), thus there is no way to know that purchasing more shares in one is better than purchasing less in the other.

Arbitrage initially existed between MtGox and BTC-e, but no longer since BitInstant is down and all the withdrawal problems at MtGox. You can occasionally do arbitrage between BTC-e and Vircurex and that other little exchange.

[iCEBREAKER]

Awwww... You just met you quota of bullshit posts. Unfortunate.

There is 0 BS in his post.
ActiveMining was suppossed to have 6TH online by now.
But since Avalon did not deliver it did not happen.
Also I find it interesting that network is 750TH and not 250TH as predicted in this chart.
But yeah that 6TH would just be temporary measure until Easic would deliver and company starts mining/selling.

Good luck deprogramming these ACTM cult members.  They are utterly resistant to facts and logic.

"ACTM goes up?  Better buy more!"
"ACTM goes down?  Buy even more!  Rah-rah-rah!"

^^^Is the mindset we're dealing with.

[Plazma]

Better buy more.

[zumzero]

Thanks for the reminder, I knew there was something I was to do!

Divs are in, better buy more..

[zumzero]

Not sure, wtf you guys are whining about any more? (except the shitty PR and lack of reporting)

Only question now, is can ActiveMining pull of the following: "52 week total earnings" divided by "number of shares outstanding" is equal or grater than "current share price"
In real world, this is usually 3-5 years earnings but in BTC reality, with a serious case of ADD, even 52 weeks is unimaginable long time for most noobs

Currently Actm has 9972881 shares outstanding (btct 3074084+ bitfunder 6898797)
So, this is  9972881*0.0040=39891,524*BTC:USD or 117.

39892*117=4 667 364 USD

to make 4 667 364 USD profit (after all the expenses), how many units they need to sell in a year?

Where the hell did you learn arithmetic!!!???

That jumbled up mess means absolutely nothing to anyone but yourself!

Start again and at least use a numerical format that people can understand.

0/10

[Stuartuk]

Currently Actm has 9972881 shares outstanding (btct 3074084+ bitfunder 6898797)
So, this is  9972881*0.0040=39891,524*BTC:USD or 117.

39892*117=4 667 364 USD

to make 4 667 364 USD profit (after all the expenses), how many units they need to sell in a year?

Utterly flawed. We are not paid divs in USD are we? We are paid in btc.
The divs will come from mining not hardware sales.

We will also be selling chips not just rigs.

[Vycid]

Is there any way to move shares between Bitfunder and BTCT (without selling)?

[kleeck]

Allow inter-exchange share transfers -> BTCT and BF. What argument is there against this?

Will this ever be possible??

Im arbing all my shares and picking up a few extra thousand for free

How?

Sell 1000 Shares on BTCT.
Buy 1300 Shares on Bitfunder.


 

That is not arbitrage.

Arbitrage would be buying 1300 shares on BitFunder at say .0025 and selling them on BTCT for .003. Then sending the bitcoins you earned from selling on BTCT back to Bitfunder to buy 1600 shares at .0025 and then selling those shares on BTCT again. You do this until the price difference no longer allows a profit.

Arbitrage is not simply the act of buying more shares on one exchange than you had on another. You are missing an entire step in the process, i.e., the transfer of the cheaper "good" over to the exchange which is paying more to make the sale.

"In economics and finance, arbitrage /ˈɑrbɨtrɑːʒ/ is the practice of taking advantage of a price difference between two or more markets: striking a combination of matching deals that capitalize upon the imbalance, the profit being the difference between the market prices. When used by academics, an arbitrage is a transaction that involves no negative cash flow at any probabilistic or temporal state and a positive cash flow in at least one state; in simple terms, it is the possibility of a risk-free profit at zero cost. For instance, an arbitrage is present when there is the opportunity to instantaneously buy low and sell high."


There is no official mechanism for arbitrage so what people are calling arbitrage in the Bitcoin ecosystem is as close as we currently can get to what fiat institutions have. Further, the only inaccuracy I can see in calling what is described here arbitrage is that it is not instant or guaranteed. It was highly unlikely that the 35% spread yesterday would close before my coin transferred, though.

All this to say that arbitrage does not need to be cyclical to be called "arbitrage". It can be one trade from one exchange to the other that nets you a return due to the price spread.

TL;DR This IS arbitrage.

The definition you quoted is correct, your statements are incorrect. The exchange between the markets needs to take place. There is no way to guarantee that the price on each exchange will at some point be equivalent because they are isolated markets (there is no way to transfer goods from one to the other), thus there is no way to know that purchasing more shares in one is better than purchasing less in the other.

Arbitrage initially existed between MtGox and BTC-e, but no longer since BitInstant is down and all the withdrawal problems at MtGox. You can occasionally do arbitrage between BTC-e and Vircurex and that other little exchange.

The quote is correct and I am correct: "arbitrage /ˈɑrbɨtrɑːʒ/ is the practice of taking advantage of a price difference between two or more markets" - that is exactly happening. You are trying to redefine the word. I won't draw this out any longer. If you think that taking advantage of a price difference between BF and BTCT isn't arbitrage, reread the definition given. It will sink it.

Cheers.

Is there any way to move shares between Bitfunder and BTCT (without selling)?

Not currently.

[zumzero]

Is there any way to move shares between Bitfunder and BTCT (without selling)?

It's been done once publicly through Ken and a fee of $5000 was paid to transfer 120,000 shares.

[Vigil]

The quote is correct and I am correct: "arbitrage /ˈɑrbɨtrɑːʒ/ is the practice of taking advantage of a price difference between two or more markets" - that is exactly happening. You are trying to redefine the word. I won't draw this out any longer. If you think that taking advantage of a price difference between BF and BTCT isn't arbitrage, reread the definition given. It will sink it.

Cheers.

[/quote]
You aren't. The advantage comes in to play buy purchasing in one and selling in the other. what advantage is there to buying more shares but each share is worth less and not being able to take advantage of the increased price at the other exchange? You have to take advantage of a price difference in two or more markets, but in what you are doing you don't even involve the other market, you just buy in one market and the other isn't involved. BF and BTCT are completely isolated as far as markets go.

From Investopedia:

Definition of 'Arbitrage' The simultaneous purchase and sale of an asset in order to profit from a difference in the price. It is a trade that profits by exploiting price differences of identical or similar financial instruments, on different markets or in different forms. Arbitrage exists as a result of market inefficiencies; it provides a mechanism to ensure prices do not deviate substantially from fair value for long periods of time.

    

ar·bi·trage  (ärb-träzh)
n.
The purchase of securities on one market for immediate resale on another market in order to profit from a price discrepancy.
intr.v. ar·bi·traged, ar·bi·trag·ing, ar·bi·trag·es
To be involved in arbitrage.
[Middle English, arbitration, from Old French, from arbitrer, to judge, from Latin arbitrr, to give judgment; see arbitrate.]

arbitrage [ˈɑːbɪˌtrɑːʒ ˈɑːbɪtrɪdʒ]
n
(Economics, Accounting & Finance / Banking & Finance) Finance
a.  the purchase of currencies, securities, or commodities in one market for immediate resale in others in order to profit from unequal prices
b.  (as modifier) arbitrage operations
[from French, from arbitrer to arbitrate]
arbitrageur  [ˌɑːbɪtræˈʒɜː] n
ar•bi•trage (ˈɑr bɪˌtrɑʒ)

n., v. -traged, -trag•ing. n.
1. the simultaneous sale of a security or commodity in different markets to profit from unequal prices.
v.i.
2. to engage in arbitrage.
[1470–80; < Middle French, <arbitr(er) to arbitrate, regulate (< Latin arbitrārī; see arbitrate)]

arbitrage
the business of buying and selling securities, curreneies, and commodities on an international scale so as to take advantage of differences in rates of exchange and prices. — arbitrager, arbitrageur, n.
See also: Money

No one claims the definition you do. You are taking the wikipedia statement out of context and making up your own definition.

[Ytterbium]

I own enough to express my disappointment at how things have progressed, zumzero.

EDIT- I hope the Fujitsu foundry know what they are doing when they knock out our chips - but has any one ever heard of these people? another disappointing aspect of this so called progress. Fujit-WHO more like.

You're asking if anyone has anyone heard of Fujitsu?  Seriously?

I mean, I didn't know they did contract IC fabrication but it's not exactly surprising.

[radiumsoup]

I own enough to express my disappointment at how things have progressed, zumzero.

EDIT- I hope the Fujitsu foundry know what they are doing when they knock out our chips - but has any one ever heard of these people? another disappointing aspect of this so called progress. Fujit-WHO more like.

You're asking if anyone has anyone heard of Fujitsu?  Seriously?

I mean, I didn't know they did contract IC fabrication but it's not exactly surprising.

[EskimoBob]

Currently Actm has 9972881 shares outstanding (btct 3074084+ bitfunder 6898797)
So, this is  9972881*0.0040=39891,524*BTC:USD or 117.

39892*117=4 667 364 USD

to make 4 667 364 USD profit (after all the expenses), how many units they need to sell in a year?

Utterly flawed. We are not paid divs in USD are we? We are paid in btc.
The divs will come from mining not hardware sales.

We will also be selling chips not just rigs.

buy more shares!

[LorenzoMoney]

$5000.....at .0030 and BTC at $130, that is a waste of 12820 shares.
If the fool who paid that had merely stayed put, he could have had nearly 13000 shares more.


Since it was done way back when BTC was about $100, he wasted about a potential 16666 shares.

I suppose he will reply to this insulting and me and and making some clever comment proving what a wise decision it was.

Is there any way to move shares between Bitfunder and BTCT (without selling)?

It's been done once publicly through Ken and a fee of $5000 was paid to transfer 120,000 shares.

[EskimoBob]

and just for lulz, to morns like UKDuck and zumzero and the rest.

"ActiveMining is a virtual identity totally owned by the Active Mining Corporation (Belize) that represents both itself and its profits. ActiveMining's business includes cryptocoin mining and sales of self-built ASIC devices through its wholly owned subsidiary Virtual Mining Corporation (VMC)."

Maybe you really need to go to fist page and read (and try to understand what you are reading), what you are actually cheering for.

I like ActiveMining and I hope they do well but idiots like you and the rest of your lot, really need to start thinking about group suicide.
I hope none of you morons have any children. Please think about removing yourself permanently from the gene pool.
Thank you for caring about the future of human race.
And now, please fuck off for good! 

[Stuartuk]

Currently Actm has 9972881 shares outstanding (btct 3074084+ bitfunder 6898797)
So, this is  9972881*0.0040=39891,524*BTC:USD or 117.

39892*117=4 667 364 USD

to make 4 667 364 USD profit (after all the expenses), how many units they need to sell in a year?

Utterly flawed. We are not paid divs in USD are we? We are paid in btc.
The divs will come from mining not hardware sales.

We will also be selling chips not just rigs.

buy more shares!

I would say don't publish rubbish Maths on here and try to pass it off at accurate when it's ill thought out fiction.

[EskimoBob]

Currently Actm has 9972881 shares outstanding (btct 3074084+ bitfunder 6898797)
So, this is  9972881*0.0040=39891,524*BTC:USD or 117.

39892*117=4 667 364 USD

to make 4 667 364 USD profit (after all the expenses), how many units they need to sell in a year?

Utterly flawed. We are not paid divs in USD are we? We are paid in btc.
The divs will come from mining not hardware sales.

We will also be selling chips not just rigs.

buy more shares!

I would say don't publish rubbish Maths on here and try to pass it off at accurate when it's ill thought out fiction.

Please elaborate on "rubbish Maths" and "ill thought out fiction" or just fuck off, as asked previously.