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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 137834 times)
shailkumari
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February 04, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
 #2241

Yes, dear cyber_smiley sir, I am 100% agree with you, new people like me my rank up stopped for the region of merit my Activity: 70 but till now my Position: Jr. Member, I Alrdaey Check it some people are joined 6 months ago for example a full member there get Merit: 100 by automatically without the quality and meaningful post. I like the  Merit system but It's Could have been better.

I am sure you had seen similar posts by other members as well regarding the flaws in the current merit system. In my opinion, there will always be some flaws. As an admin, he has to make a balance between what is good for the forum and what is good for members. New members suffered but we have to deal with it. It is not that hard to reach the member rank at least in my opinion.
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Zackgeno96
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February 04, 2018, 12:57:43 PM
 #2242

OH really? And you will have signature campaigns in that forum too?

Haha. No other forum can provide such a huge platform and audience for the new projects, so the signature campaigns will be useless on other forums.

There is resistance but it all seems to be one immature dumbass behind this shit. Good luck with finding an alternative to this forum.

There is hardly any forum which can beat the bitcointalk in all aspects. We should always keep in mind that this forum was started by the Satoshi and hence there could not be any alternative.
Semosuchi Tesongrato
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February 04, 2018, 02:39:02 PM
 #2243

I agree with this approach.
I admit that I was very upset at the beginning, as I was just near to become Member, and now I have to earn it in hard way.
But now I start to see the positive intention, I just received two merits, and this means that it's not impossible.
But the system needs some modifications: now I have earned two merits, and I have one to give away. I'd like to give one to this post, but then I'll have zero. I'll think about it. But with a so limited number it's difficult to take a decision.

I hope there will be improvement, but I have to admit that the system works: if I look at my first posts, I'm ashamed of them. They were really bad. Sorry.
Now, I don't make masterworks, but I put a lot more attention, and I think twice before to write something, and my motivation in writing something decent is higher.

If we stop complaining and we start to give a contribution, the system will have a very positive impact on the quality of the forum.



As other members already stated, this is a private forum, so the owner has any right to do what he thinks is the best move to improve his property.
It doesn't make any sense to complain about any aspect we don't like; much better to be grateful for the opportunity we have to learn a lot and - eventually - to have a little extra income from campaigns.

So, not with the intention to complain, but just to offer some ideas, here are my two cents: the intention behind the merit system is very good, and I think that only spammers and shitposters don't agree. What I find inefficient - and probably more of the "complainers" agree with me - are mainly these two aspect:

1) the system is really too unbalanced in favor of old members. I understand that I have to earn my position, and I agree that only "good members" will rank up. But if I read the old posts of a lot of high rank members, I find a lot of shitpost, and I just wonder why "they" had this privilege by luck in the meanwhile I have to work hard for the same results. I agree, life is unfair, but this aspect is very disturbing.

2) the merits are too scarce. I had ONE. Now I have THREE. Really, a so little number make me anxious to give them. Even if I like a post. I think it's the same for other low rank members. The result is that may be I write a masterwork (I'd like...) but nobody has merit to give to me.
The only members with a lot of merits to give are Legendaries (another privilege..), but it seems that they prefer to reward each other, may be just to show friendship. I'm pretty sure you did some math projections, but in this way the system it's really too rigid. Of course, may be I'm wrong. We'll see.

But please accept the idea that - even if the meirt system is a good point to start - there is a lot of space for improvement.





It's too early to get a clear picture, but my thoughts so far:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up. The forum is not a welfare system; you don't run through a few hoops and then get paid for doing something that nobody actually wants. I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them. I very much do not want to destroy the sig-ad/airdrop/bounty "industry". But I am not going to tolerate people posting garbage upon garbage. If the merit system completely fails and I can't think of anything else to replace it, then my next step will probably be to completely remove all ways for forum users to make money from posting (eg. removing signatures entirely).

Maybe there are ways for people who were making money by posting garbage on the forum to make money on other sites with easy bounties, etc. (For example, I don't know if they're actually any good, but https://bountyhive.io is currently advertising on the forum.) But people should use the forum to talk about these money-making ideas, not as a way of making money itself. Once you spend a lot of time here, you may be able to make some money here (which is great!), but you should consider this a far-off hope, not your primary objective.

BTW, if anyone has any ideas for simple things that these ex-nonsense-posters could usefully do to make money, I think that this'd be a good project right now. There are apparently quite a few people who were making money on the forum and could use guidance. Even though their past activities were not good for this forum, I doubt that they are useless in general.



Merit awards may be too spotty/uneven currently, though it's still too early to say. In addition to continuously adding more sources, if things could still use improvement in this regard in a couple of months, I may do something like decay old sMerit and unused source merit and randomly redistribute the decayed merit. How the random distribution would work would magnify past merit -- so perhaps you would get an increased chance of winning extra merit for every post you've made which has at least 1 merit, but certainly you would not get any extra merit if none of your posts was ever merited.

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

I think that actmyname has been too hasty with some of his negatives, but I haven't had time to look carefully enough into it to justify making forceful changes. I did exclude actmyname from my trust list, so another DT1 could remove him from the default trust network by doing the same.

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February 04, 2018, 02:47:51 PM
 #2244

There is hardly any forum which can beat the bitcointalk in all aspects. We should always keep in mind that this forum was started by the Satoshi and hence there could not be any alternative.

Sorry I do not agree with this point given you. I appreciate the work being done by staff on this forum. But if you think that this forum will remain number one just because it was started by Satoshi, it is not practical. One has to keep up with the changing trends. For instance, at the time of starting the forum, he might not be expecting sections like alt coins here.

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QuestionAuthority
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February 04, 2018, 03:11:26 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1), anigoweb (1)
 #2245

The last few pages of this thread actually show your position on the earth as it turns in relation to the sun.

The non-English speaking forum members wake up and attempt to speak out about what they see as a problem in the only way they can (using a translator). You English speaking posters need to calm down and realize the local subs don’t each have their own Meta section fully translated in a language they speak fluently. They need to voice their concerns here in English.

Theymos made me think hard about why some of these people are here. Many of them probably are impoverished and see the little amounts of money they can make here as a gold mine. It’s true that this forum is not a substitute worldwide welfare system and many of them will need to go away but we don’t need to treat them like shit in the meantime. Save that for the very fluent scammers and conmen stealing from people here. You can say anything you want to someone like Bryan Micon or Josh Zerlan and be justified. Talking shit to a 15 year old kid from Bangladesh probably isn’t the best thing you could be spending your time on.

Fondago
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February 04, 2018, 03:21:03 PM
 #2246

I'm most impressed with those people who shout at others who are lower in rank, but they are here for bounty and freebies too. At the same time, they themselves run around with avatars and signatures.
How are you doing, dear arrogance? These people reached out to the rank they received, without effort, spamming messages, and now they have the courage and impudence "to drive on" other bountists.
petuhov
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February 04, 2018, 03:39:25 PM
 #2247

I'm most impressed with those people who shout at others who are lower in rank, but they are here for bounty and freebies too. At the same time, they themselves run around with avatars and signatures.
How are you doing, dear arrogance? These people reached out to the rank they received, without effort, spamming messages, and now they have the courage and impudence "to drive on" other bountists.

They are rewarded for being here for long time and nothing wrong with that. With time, you will also rank up.
Magister Magus
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February 04, 2018, 04:37:27 PM
Last edit: February 04, 2018, 07:21:36 PM by Magister Magus
Merited by amishmanish (2), d5000 (1), LoyceV (1)
 #2248

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy in this thread, and I'm glad that someone says how things really are.
As I wrote in a precedent post, I'm starting to appreciate the intention behind the system, I received also some merits so - even it's hard - it doesn't appear as impossible as at the beginning.
What I found very disturbing was the bad attitude of some high rank members, that treated the rest of us with arrogance, without to see that a lot of them were just lucky shitposters and - if they were evaluated with this new system - they were still newbies. Of course, this is just a rough generalization.

Btw: it's evident that if a system rewards people for writing shit, the system will be filled soon by shitposters!
The revenue from a campaign can appear ridiculous to an average guy in USA of Europe, but for someone in other parts of the world are very big sums.
I understand that the forum must be protected, and something must be done, but when I see some "stars" of the forum talking about "3rd world monkeys" or "3rd world cancer", I think this has nothing to do with the improvement of the forum but only reveals a racist and Nazi mentality.
I'm not from 3rd world, but I think that everyone on the planet deserves respect, and actually I think that the "15 year old kid from Bangladesh" trying to make a buck on the forum should be rewarded for his good will, not insulted.
Of course, a million of 15 years old kids writing on the forum would be a tsunami, so we needed measures.

The new system is not perfect, but I was very glad to see that theymos is open to suggestions.
It's very simple to blame. I'd like to have good proposal but sincerely I don't have any, for the moment.
But I'm working on it! We'll see :-)


The last few pages of this thread actually show your position on the earth as it turns in relation to the sun.

The non-English speaking forum members wake up and attempt to speak out about what they see as a problem in the only way they can (using a translator). You English speaking posters need to calm down and realize the local subs don’t each have their own Meta section fully translated in a language they speak fluently. They need to voice their concerns here in English.

Theymos made me think hard about why some of these people are here. Many of them probably are impoverished and see the little amounts of money they can make here as a gold mine. It’s true that this forum is not a substitute worldwide welfare system and many of them will need to go away but we don’t need to treat them like shit in the meantime. Save that for the very fluent scammers and conmen stealing from people here. You can say anything you want to someone like Bryan Micon or Josh Zerlan and be justified. Talking shit to a 15 year old kid from Bangladesh probably isn’t the best thing you could be spending your time on.

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February 04, 2018, 04:41:56 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #2249

I did some research last couple of days.

What I noticed so far is large number of accounts which are posting farming as usual and then all of sudden they post very constructive post just to receive merit, often paraphrasing articles and/or just copying articles here.

On the other hand, it is not really hard to post 50 short lines in off topic or games and rounds and after that to post 10 high quality posts at right place and point them to right people.
I don't think current system will decrease number of farming accounts, spam or account sales and honestly I think 10 merits to rank up to member rank is too low, because people will just create hundred accounts, do exactly what I said above and abuse signature/bounty campaigns, giveaways etc.

For every 10 Smerits received, junior member can easily send 5 Smerits to other account, from that account 2 Smerit to third account and so on - and repeat with many accounts.

So, in my honest opinion this system need little improvement:

RankRequired activityRequired merit
Jr Member300
Member6050
Full Member120150
Sr. Member240300
Hero Member480550
LegendaryRandom in the range 775-10301050

Raising merit requirement by 50 points will make difference and should solve most "merit" issues, account farming, account sales etc(or at least make them so hard that people will give up doing it) and won't affect on number of merits required for full-hero member to rank up because older users will need the same amount of Smerit to rank up(members will need 100 SMP*, full members 150 SMP, senior member 250 SMP and hero 500 SMP) and it will actually force "new users" to write better posts from first day, which isn't the case at the moment.

However, number of Smerits given to all members should remain the same as it is now, but i guess this is irrelevant because we all already received smerits.

*SMP - sMerit points

DarkoBlog
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February 04, 2018, 05:06:36 PM
 #2250

As long as this new Merit points system has caused different reactions, I can personally support moderator efforts to bring some order to the forum. Every change is a subject of discussion, but better this than doing nothing.
bitgov
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February 04, 2018, 05:07:55 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #2251

I did some research last couple of days.

What I noticed so far is large number of accounts which are posting farming as usual and then all of sudden they post very constructive post just to receive merit, often paraphrasing articles and/or just copying articles here.

On the other hand, it is not really hard to post 50 short lines in off topic or games and rounds and after that to post 10 high quality posts at right place and point them to right people.
I don't think current system will decrease number of farming accounts, spam or account sales and honestly I think 10 merits to rank up to member rank is too low, because people will just create hundred accounts, do exactly what I said above and abuse signature/bounty campaigns, giveaways etc.

For every 10 Smerits received, junior member can easily send 5 Smerits to other account, from that account 2 Smerit to third account and so on - and repeat with many accounts.

So, in my honest opinion this system need little improvement:

RankRequired activityRequired merit
Jr Member300
Member6050
Full Member120150
Sr. Member240300
Hero Member480550
LegendaryRandom in the range 775-10301050

Raising merit requirement by 50 points will make difference and should solve most "merit" issues, account farming, account sales etc(or at least make them so hard that people will give up doing it) and won't affect on number of merits required for full-hero member to rank up because older users will need the same amount of Smerit to rank up(members will need 100 SMP*, full members 150 SMP, senior member 250 SMP and hero 500 SMP) and it will actually force "new users" to write better posts from first day, which isn't the case at the moment.

However, number of Smerits given to all members should remain the same as it is now, but i guess this is irrelevant because we all already received smerits.

*SMP - sMerit points

It is true that in this way you will make it difficult for all account farmers, but for ordinary users, achieving more merit points will be practically impossible and then the entire ranking system loses meaning.
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February 04, 2018, 05:38:08 PM
Merited by Jet Cash (1), coolcoinz (1)
 #2252



It is true that in this way you will make it difficult for all account farmers, but for ordinary users, achieving more merit points will be practically impossible and then the entire ranking system loses meaning.

You are a curious person to me. The majority of your post history is in Chinese. I randomly translated some of the older posts from that Chinese guy and he was a pretty big bitcoin supporter. He was worried about what his government would do to bitcoin.

Then *poof* as if by some kind of forum magic that Chinese guy becomes fluent in English, never posts in a Chinese language thread again, becomes a bounty hunter and only posts in threads talking about profit. I hope you didn’t spend too much for that account.

I don’t know how much I trust your opinion on the whole merit situation since you’re probably one of the people this system is supposed to eliminate.

coolcoinz
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February 04, 2018, 05:43:48 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #2253

I did some research last couple of days.

What I noticed so far is large number of accounts which are posting farming as usual and then all of sudden they post very constructive post just to receive merit, often paraphrasing articles and/or just copying articles here.

On the other hand, it is not really hard to post 50 short lines in off topic or games and rounds and after that to post 10 high quality posts at right place and point them to right people.

That's why when you see a suspicious account you can always check their previous posts and find their true intentions. I've seen some good campaign managers do it. Shitposters won't keep pretending forever. At some point they will start doing their thing again.



It is true that in this way you will make it difficult for all account farmers, but for ordinary users, achieving more merit points will be practically impossible and then the entire ranking system loses meaning.

You are a curious person to me. The majority of your post history is in Chinese. I randomly translated some of the older posts from that Chinese guy and he was a pretty big bitcoin supporter. He was worried about what his government would do to bitcoin.

Then *poof* as if by some kind of forum magic that Chinese guy becomes fluent in English, never posts in a Chinese language thread again, becomes a bounty hunter and only posts in threads talking about profit. I hope you didn’t spend too much for that account.

I don’t know how much I trust your opinion on the whole merit situation since you’re probably one of the people this system is supposed to eliminate.

It's one of the hacked accounts.
All posts in Chinese until September 19, 2014. Then we have a 3 year break in which time we had that data leak and someone grabbed it, sold and suddenly since August 11, 2017 it's running under new, English speaking management.  Cheesy

BitNaija
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February 04, 2018, 05:50:52 PM
 #2254

This merit system introduced is a novelty. However, leaving the score in the hands of the general members will bring controversies. And it has started generating controversy. I will suppose that just the appointed persons be responsible for merit score.

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February 04, 2018, 05:55:50 PM
 #2255



It is true that in this way you will make it difficult for all account farmers, but for ordinary users, achieving more merit points will be practically impossible and then the entire ranking system loses meaning.

You are a curious person to me. The majority of your post history is in Chinese. I randomly translated some of the older posts from that Chinese guy and he was a pretty big bitcoin supporter. He was worried about what his government would do to bitcoin.

Then *poof* as if by some kind of forum magic that Chinese guy becomes fluent in English, never posts in a Chinese language thread again, becomes a bounty hunter and only posts in threads talking about profit. I hope you didn’t spend too much for that account.

I don’t know how much I trust your opinion on the whole merit situation since you’re probably one of the people this system is supposed to eliminate.

It's one of the hacked accounts.
All posts in Chinese until September 19, 2014. Then we have a 3 year break in which time we had that data leak and someone grabbed it, sold and suddenly since August 11, 2017 it's running under new, English speaking management.  Cheesy

Ah, that makes sense then.

I guess I should give him some merit. ROFL

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February 04, 2018, 05:56:56 PM
 #2256

I see many quality post here but didn't have a merit. As I can say the problem will be the members who are not participating the purpose of the merit system.
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February 04, 2018, 05:57:21 PM
 #2257

It is very important for us to know how merit actually, whether we can get directly what if we make a quality post, so I do not understand also about merit. whether merit can decrease by itself as well?

If you go through the response made in this thread, all your doubts will go away. But you want to be spoon fed. Right ?
bitgov
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February 04, 2018, 06:59:55 PM
 #2258



It is true that in this way you will make it difficult for all account farmers, but for ordinary users, achieving more merit points will be practically impossible and then the entire ranking system loses meaning.

You are a curious person to me. The majority of your post history is in Chinese. I randomly translated some of the older posts from that Chinese guy and he was a pretty big bitcoin supporter. He was worried about what his government would do to bitcoin.

Then *poof* as if by some kind of forum magic that Chinese guy becomes fluent in English, never posts in a Chinese language thread again, becomes a bounty hunter and only posts in threads talking about profit. I hope you didn’t spend too much for that account.

I don’t know how much I trust your opinion on the whole merit situation since you’re probably one of the people this system is supposed to eliminate.

I bought this account.. Like we can see in posts history it was around middle of August 2017. I don't know why someone sold this account.
It is my alt account, my real account have much longer history.. almost like yours Wink You don't need to trust my rank, because as we all know not always it have to be true Wink . Just read what i write and think.

Merit system is not bad idea in my opinion, but as it was written account farmers can find bypass for it:

Quote
On the other hand, it is not really hard to post 50 short lines in off topic or games and rounds and after that to post 10 high quality posts at right place and point them to right people.
I don't think current system will decrease number of farming accounts, spam or account sales and honestly I think 10 merits to rank up to member rank is too low, because people will just create hundred accounts, do exactly what I said above and abuse signature/bounty campaigns, giveaways etc.

For every 10 Smerits received, junior member can easily send 5 Smerits to other account, from that account 2 Smerit to third account and so on - and repeat with many accounts.

When I write that increasing the number of merit points will be very difficult for ordinary users, I write this honestly. On the other hand, in my opinion, farmers will bypass it. But as wrote themos it is too early to verdict where it will go.
The only thing i can suggest at this point, is implementation of a moderator who will deal only with merit points.

Do I have to be eliminated by this system? I don't know - you should to decide about that. Lauda already tagged me just because someone said that my account is hacked Smiley And now i have to prove that i bought this account - what is allowed here, but in next 5 minutes The Pharmacist will give me next red tag because he don't like when someone buy account. For me behavior like this distorts reality.
Maybe my example will be interesting to talk about that system.. Let see example when someone collected thousands of merit points, and someone find out that a few years ago he bought this account .. buum - red tag! What then?

I think that trading accounts should be blocked completely and it would dispel any doubts. Don't you see a conflict of interest? On one end Administration is letting people trading accounts and on another is rewarding people for red tagging for that! Kind of Monthy Python for me ..

Sorry for little off top with this trading.
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February 04, 2018, 07:16:44 PM
 #2259

I once found a conversation that essentially, they will set up a telegram group whose purpose is to exchange Smerit they have

and I realize that spammers still have a cunning way to raise their rank
if so whether this merit point system will be effective ?

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February 04, 2018, 07:36:01 PM
 #2260



It is true that in this way you will make it difficult for all account farmers, but for ordinary users, achieving more merit points will be practically impossible and then the entire ranking system loses meaning.

You are a curious person to me. The majority of your post history is in Chinese. I randomly translated some of the older posts from that Chinese guy and he was a pretty big bitcoin supporter. He was worried about what his government would do to bitcoin.

Then *poof* as if by some kind of forum magic that Chinese guy becomes fluent in English, never posts in a Chinese language thread again, becomes a bounty hunter and only posts in threads talking about profit. I hope you didn’t spend too much for that account.

I don’t know how much I trust your opinion on the whole merit situation since you’re probably one of the people this system is supposed to eliminate.

I bought this account.. Like we can see in posts history it was around middle of August 2017. I don't know why someone sold this account.
It is my alt account, my real account have much longer history.. almost like yours Wink You don't need to trust my rank, because as we all know not always it have to be true Wink . Just read what i write and think.

Merit system is not bad idea in my opinion, but as it was written account farmers can find bypass for it:

Quote
On the other hand, it is not really hard to post 50 short lines in off topic or games and rounds and after that to post 10 high quality posts at right place and point them to right people.
I don't think current system will decrease number of farming accounts, spam or account sales and honestly I think 10 merits to rank up to member rank is too low, because people will just create hundred accounts, do exactly what I said above and abuse signature/bounty campaigns, giveaways etc.

For every 10 Smerits received, junior member can easily send 5 Smerits to other account, from that account 2 Smerit to third account and so on - and repeat with many accounts.

When I write that increasing the number of merit points will be very difficult for ordinary users, I write this honestly. On the other hand, in my opinion, farmers will bypass it. But as wrote themos it is too early to verdict where it will go.
The only thing i can suggest at this point, is implementation of a moderator who will deal only with merit points.

Do I have to be eliminated by this system? I don't know - you should to decide about that. Lauda already tagged me just because someone said that my account is hacked Smiley And now i have to prove that i bought this account - what is allowed here, but in next 5 minutes The Pharmacist will give me next red tag because he don't like when someone buy account. For me behavior like this distorts reality.
Maybe my example will be interesting to talk about that system.. Let see example when someone collected thousands of merit points, and someone find out that a few years ago he bought this account .. buum - red tag! What then?

I think that trading accounts should be blocked completely and it would dispel any doubts. Don't you see a conflict of interest? On one end Administration is letting people trading accounts and on another is rewarding people for red tagging for that! Kind of Monthy Python for me ..

Sorry for little off top with this trading.

I merely gave you a merit for: 1) the activity level of your account, 2) the fact that had not received any merits and 3) because of the substance of your earlier posts.  I did not research into your trust or your post history.

But even your admission here regarding the surrounding facts brings me regret for having had used one of my merits on your account.

Somehow you believe that if an account is stolen (assuming that you did not steal the account and you paid for it like you said), then someone, such as yourself, should be able to buy such account and the account would be valid because you supposedly payed for it? 

There seems to be something wrong with your thinking, in that regard, bitgov.  I will be surprised if this particular account does not get frozen or locked out - seems like you are not in a good position, because, generally, buying stolen property is not acceptable, and if you think that it is then you may be engaged in a kind of rationalization if you believe that buying stolen property should be acceptable?   

Anyhow, if you really do have another more valid account, then perhaps you (and the forum) would be better served by your using that other (presumably not stolen account) to post. 

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