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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 137961 times)
Soke
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February 03, 2018, 05:52:46 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #2181

I think the requirements for the merit system is off.  Merits are harder to earn than activity points, so the merit requirements should be less than the activity requirements.  The requirements are off for Sr. Members and above. 
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Zandar
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February 03, 2018, 06:14:18 PM
 #2182

2. Collect TEN posts written in the last couple of months by other people that have not received nearly enough merit for how good they are, and post quotes for them all in a new Meta thread. The point of this is to demonstrate your ability to give out merit usefully.


In other words we are supposed to become cheerleaders for other people.
This new merit system is nothing more than a popularity contest. You think people will give out merits because the post is good? Think again. People will hand out merits to their friends and people they know. Even merit pump groups will appear.
Also there are lots of people with multiple accounts, all they'll do is keep giving merits from one acount to their other accounts and keep racking it in, while others will stay stuck in same rank no matter the quality of their posts.

You want quality posts only? That's easy. Get enough moderators working on the site that will keep on deleting one line posts and shitty posts and people will fall in line in no time.
With this merit system this place is going to turn into highschool in no time. Allready lots of topics have opened that are selling merits. Ofcourse they opened the topics with completely new accounts so their high rank accounts can hand out the sold merits behind the curtains.

Also I have gone through the entire 112 pages of this topic and the quality posts I saw can only fill like 5-10 pages max, so the highschool antics are still in place. There are even tons of single line spam posts in this topic alone and some might even have been merited.

And not anymore seeing the trust immediately under a user while reading in a topic doesn't help things either, now one has to click upon that user to see it.

Edit: Might want to make it so that one can only give a certain max merits per month to the exact same user no matter how many quality posts made. This will force that user to spread around their merits instead of keep handing them out to their 'select' few.
gnerro2
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February 03, 2018, 06:18:40 PM
 #2183

2. Collect TEN posts written in the last couple of months by other people that have not received nearly enough merit for how good they are, and post quotes for them all in a new Meta thread. The point of this is to demonstrate your ability to give out merit usefully.


In other words we are supposed to become cheerleaders for other people.
This new merit system is nothing more than a popularity contest. You think people will give out merits because the post is good? Think again. People will hand out merits to their friends and people they know. Even merit pump groups will appear.
Also there are lots of people with multiple accounts, all they'll do is keep giving merits from one acount to their other accounts and keep racking it in, while others will stay stuck in same rank no matter the quality of their posts.

You want quality posts only? That's easy. Get enough moderators working on the site that will keep on deleting one line posts and shitty posts and people will fall in line in no time.
With this merit system this place is going to turn into highschool in no time. Allready lots of topics have opened that are selling merits. Ofcourse they opened the topics with completely new accounts so their high rank accounts can hand out the sold merits behind the curtains.

Also I have gone through the entire 112 pages of this topic and the quality posts I saw can only fill like 5-10 pages max, so the highschool antics are still in place. There are even tons of single line spam posts in this topic alone and some might even have been merited.

And not anymore seeing the trust immediately under a user while reading in a topic doesn't help things either, now one has to click upon that user to see it.

that's sad .. but tnx. bitcointalk are so inefficient than.

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February 03, 2018, 06:20:54 PM
Merited by Foxpup (6), twbt (5), EFS (3), malevolent (2), Husires (2), mprep (1), LoyceV (1), pugman (1)
 #2184

It's too early to get a clear picture, but my thoughts so far:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up. The forum is not a welfare system; you don't run through a few hoops and then get paid for doing something that nobody actually wants. I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them. I very much do not want to destroy the sig-ad/airdrop/bounty "industry". But I am not going to tolerate people posting garbage upon garbage. If the merit system completely fails and I can't think of anything else to replace it, then my next step will probably be to completely remove all ways for forum users to make money from posting (eg. removing signatures entirely).

Maybe there are ways for people who were making money by posting garbage on the forum to make money on other sites with easy bounties, etc. (For example, I don't know if they're actually any good, but https://bountyhive.io is currently advertising on the forum.) But people should use the forum to talk about these money-making ideas, not as a way of making money itself. Once you spend a lot of time here, you may be able to make some money here (which is great!), but you should consider this a far-off hope, not your primary objective.

BTW, if anyone has any ideas for simple things that these ex-nonsense-posters could usefully do to make money, I think that this'd be a good project right now. There are apparently quite a few people who were making money on the forum and could use guidance. Even though their past activities were not good for this forum, I doubt that they are useless in general.



Merit awards may be too spotty/uneven currently, though it's still too early to say. In addition to continuously adding more sources, if things could still use improvement in this regard in a couple of months, I may do something like decay old sMerit and unused source merit and randomly redistribute the decayed merit. How the random distribution would work would magnify past merit -- so perhaps you would get an increased chance of winning extra merit for every post you've made which has at least 1 merit, but certainly you would not get any extra merit if none of your posts was ever merited.

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

I think that actmyname has been too hasty with some of his negatives, but I haven't had time to look carefully enough into it to justify making forceful changes. I did exclude actmyname from my trust list, so another DT1 could remove him from the default trust network by doing the same.

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February 03, 2018, 06:24:39 PM
 #2185

2. Collect TEN posts written in the last couple of months by other people that have not received nearly enough merit for how good they are, and post quotes for them all in a new Meta thread. The point of this is to demonstrate your ability to give out merit usefully.


In other words we are supposed to become cheerleaders for other people.
This new merit system is nothing more than a popularity contest. You think people will give out merits because the post is good? Think again. People will hand out merits to their friends and people they know. Even merit pump groups will appear.
Also there are lots of people with multiple accounts, all they'll do is keep giving merits from one acount to their other accounts and keep racking it in, while others will stay stuck in same rank no matter the quality of their posts.

You want quality posts only? That's easy. Get enough moderators working on the site that will keep on deleting one line posts and shitty posts and people will fall in line in no time.
With this merit system this place is going to turn into high school in no time. Already lots of topics have opened that are selling merits. Ofcourse they opened the topics with completely new accounts so their high rank accounts can hand out the sold merits behind the curtains.

Also I have gone through the entire 112 pages of this topic and the quality posts I saw can only fill like 5-10 pages max, so the highschool antics are still in place. There are even tons of single line spam posts in this topic alone and some might even have been merited.

And not anymore seeing the trust immediately under a user while reading in a topic doesn't help things either, now one has to click upon that user to see it.

Yes i agree with you. The system encourage more cheaters and people with multiple accounts will continue to get their other accounts rank up fast. There are so many forum members with sincerity, people who really contributing to the forum and ecosystem will not get rewarded for their activities. I will suggest the merit system should be stopped and let the old system continue the way it was running.
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February 03, 2018, 06:26:53 PM
 #2186

No system is perfect, I think you have give time to the staff to review and make adjustments where necessary. It does look like they're open to suggestions and making changes for the better.

POWH3D - Stake a masternode with less than .5 ETH POWH3D (https://powh.io/?masternode=0xcd75c47b2ec49e92cc673269b53d1a75d023dfc9)
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February 03, 2018, 06:27:20 PM
 #2187

It's too early to get a clear picture, but my thoughts so far:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up. The forum is not a welfare system; you don't run through a few hoops and then get paid for doing something that nobody actually wants. I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them. I very much do not want to destroy the sig-ad/airdrop/bounty "industry". But I am not going to tolerate people posting garbage upon garbage. If the merit system completely fails and I can't think of anything else to replace it, then my next step will probably be to completely remove all ways for forum users to make money from posting (eg. removing signatures entirely).

Maybe there are ways for people who were making money by posting garbage on the forum to make money on other sites with easy bounties, etc. (For example, I don't know if they're actually any good, but https://bountyhive.io is currently advertising on the forum.) But people should use the forum to talk about these money-making ideas, not as a way of making money itself. Once you spend a lot of time here, you may be able to make some money here (which is great!), but you should consider this a far-off hope, not your primary objective.

BTW, if anyone has any ideas for simple things that these ex-nonsense-posters could usefully do to make money, I think that this'd be a good project right now. There are apparently quite a few people who were making money on the forum and could use guidance. Even though their past activities were not good for this forum, I doubt that they are useless in general.



Merit awards may be too spotty/uneven currently, though it's still too early to say. In addition to continuously adding more sources, if things could still use improvement in this regard in a couple of months, I may do something like decay old sMerit and unused source merit and randomly redistribute the decayed merit. How the random distribution would work would magnify past merit -- so perhaps you would get an increased chance of winning extra merit for every post you've made which has at least 1 merit, but certainly you would not get any extra merit if none of your posts was ever merited.

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

I think that actmyname has been too hasty with some of his negatives, but I haven't had time to look carefully enough into it to justify making forceful changes. I did exclude actmyname from my trust list, so another DT1 could remove him from the default trust network by doing the same.

"I may do something like decay old sMerit and unused source merit and randomly redistribute the decayed merit."

that's sounds good, improve it! Smiley

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February 03, 2018, 06:30:41 PM
Merited by nullius (1)
 #2188

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

I think that actmyname has been too hasty with some of his negatives, but I haven't had time to look carefully enough into it to justify making forceful changes. I did exclude actmyname from my trust list, so another DT1 could remove him from the default trust network by doing the same.
So what are you proposing that be done against shady behavior regarding the merit system? Nothing? Or are you simply saying that *we could/should* tag them, but that some of the tag's by actmyname were unwarranted?

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adetos
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February 03, 2018, 06:32:49 PM
 #2189

Now who are those awarding merits? Forum members or the admins
bitgov
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February 03, 2018, 06:35:02 PM
 #2190

It looks like Merit is going to be new "coin" on Bitcointalk market:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2874805.0

In democratic and capitalist countries, "difficulties" become currency. Wink
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February 03, 2018, 06:40:21 PM
 #2191

Its important that merit distribution and award should given to forum staffs and admins so that, so even the members will not have right to distribute and will bring some sanity to the forum. This will make people in the be more serious with what ever they are doing and get rewarded moving up having access to better capabilities and features of the forum.
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February 03, 2018, 06:40:27 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2018, 09:27:47 PM by pugman
Merited by d5000 (1), JayJuanGee (1), LoyceV (1), nullius (1)
 #2192

It's too early to get a clear picture, but my thoughts so far:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up. The forum is not a welfare system; you don't run through a few hoops and then get paid for doing something that nobody actually wants. I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them. I very much do not want to destroy the sig-ad/airdrop/bounty "industry". But I am not going to tolerate people posting garbage upon garbage. If the merit system completely fails and I can't think of anything else to replace it, then my next step will probably be to completely remove all ways for forum users to make money from posting (eg. removing signatures entirely).
Why would the merit system fail? Are you kidding? The merit system has been one of the best things ever done on this forum which is why users are complaining so much about it. Why do you want good posters to suffer from the likes of idiots? I know this can be a hectic task to do but users can be banned if they are hesitant to cope up with the forum's policies and if they only want to earn from signature campaigns. But really, you have done great work and just verbally appreciating it isn't enough.
Maybe there are ways for people who were making money by posting garbage on the forum to make money on other sites with easy bounties, etc. (For example, I don't know if they're actually any good, but https://bountyhive.io is currently advertising on the forum.) But people should use the forum to talk about these money-making ideas, not as a way of making money itself. Once you spend a lot of time here, you may be able to make some money here (which is great!), but you should consider this a far-off hope, not your primary objective.
In sections like trading discussions , economics, bitcoin discussion, alternative cryptocurrencies discussion - people do post on how to make money but they are often ruined by shitposters and the whole thread becomes meaningless to read. The forum needs one more extra thing which would really help for the better :- New staff members and if possible global mods. They can patrol through discussions and nuke stupid users. Loyce V would be a great staff member, my suggestion /vote.
BTW, if anyone has any ideas for simple things that these ex-nonsense-posters could usefully do to make money, I think that this'd be a good project right now. There are apparently quite a few people who were making money on the forum and could use guidance. Even though their past activities were not good for this forum, I doubt that they are useless in general.
There are ways to earn money but signature campaigns by far has been the easiest way to earn quick cash that too in quite significant amounts. So any other ways, people might go for it but signature campaigns would be the first go to option, as most of the managers don't monitor their participants well. If you could make a whole list of rules and guidelines including for that of signature campaigns, it'd be helpful.
I think that actmyname has been too hasty with some of his negatives, but I haven't had time to look carefully enough into it to justify making forceful changes. I did exclude actmyname from my trust list, so another DT1 could remove him from the default trust network by doing the same.
Actmyname is giving a lot of negative feedback but most of them if not all deserve such ratings. Removing him from default trust won't be the best option, I think the managerial principle of "Stability of Personnel" should be applied here, that is give actmyname some more time to prove himself worthy of the DefaultTrust members list.

Edit :- This might be the first time I have actually seen theymos sort of getting angry on shitposters. Love it already.

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February 03, 2018, 06:53:04 PM
 #2193

No...You, like every other under-dog member, are fucked...
Penis...
Great example of a garbage shitpost that I would've tagged only a couple of weeks ago.  And now I don't have to do it because the merit system is in place, which almost ensures that idiots who can't speak a lick of English won't advance here on bitcointalk.  It's deliciously satisfying, and I must say it is still bringing a smile to my face. 

Are you fucked?  Yes.  And I would also suggest that if that's how you view things, you're here for all the wrong reasons.  If you came to bitcointalk because you enjoyed posting--and reading posts--the difficulty of getting merit points wouldn't bother you in the least.  The only people it bothers are the gibbering ape-beings who are here to crank out shitposts as fast as they can, with absolutely zero thought involved in their creation (see above post by Godwans). 

There are going to be people who buy merit, and those who trade it between alt accounts, but overall I think it's going to slow down the process of account farming and dis-incentivize shitposting to a large degree.  I can already see the fruits of the system being picked.
I absolutely meant that to be taken as a joke(note the reference to Prodeum), perhaps my sense of humor and yours do not jibe..Sorry for that..

This is my siggy
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February 03, 2018, 06:55:05 PM
Merited by Quickseller (25), LoyceV (1)
 #2194

So what are you proposing that be done against shady behavior regarding the merit system? Nothing? Or are you simply saying that *we could/should* tag them, but that some of the tag's by actmyname were unwarranted?

I think that tagging may be appropriate in particularly obvious cases, or particularly egregious cases involving hundreds of merit points and several posts. But generally you should start out by assuming good faith, and only change that opinion as the evidence really piles up. Tagging someone immediately after an instance of apparently-inexplicable meriting is too trigger-happy IMO. Even if it is a case of illegitimate merit, even hundreds of illegitimate merit points are not much of a problem IMO, so you have to ask whether it's worthwhile to possibly make a mistake by tagging someone who is merely suspicious.

Now, I'm not 100% sure that actmyname's ratings are outside of what I would consider appropriate, which is why I didn't take action to immediately remove him. But from what I've seen, it does seem likely that he is too trigger-happy.

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February 03, 2018, 07:05:14 PM
Merited by MadZ (1)
 #2195

0.4 + 0.00075 × 18 = 0.4135.

Returning that to bc1qyhhkhdcml6cfzsjk3wm42jezu689f3mghh3lea

Please confirm.

Sorry for the interference but i think that you make a wrong calculation... As you wrote this the result is 7.2135BTC. Shocked Grin

They really need to add negative merit to this forum...
oh c'mon, You can't demerit Sarcasm, How could you?

Yeah, but you can demerit stupidity  Roll Eyes
Don't know how that system will work but I'm sure if you(Assuming you a source of demerit) start de-meriting them you get out of stock every month.

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February 03, 2018, 07:12:37 PM
 #2196

So what are you proposing that be done against shady behavior regarding the merit system? Nothing? Or are you simply saying that *we could/should* tag them, but that some of the tag's by actmyname were unwarranted?

I think that tagging may be appropriate in particularly obvious cases, or particularly egregious cases involving hundreds of merit points and several posts. But generally you should start out by assuming good faith, and only change that opinion as the evidence really piles up. Tagging someone immediately after an instance of apparently-inexplicable meriting is too trigger-happy IMO. Even if it is a case of illegitimate merit, even hundreds of illegitimate merit points are not much of a problem IMO, so you have to ask whether it's worthwhile to possibly make a mistake by tagging someone who is merely suspicious.

Now, I'm not 100% sure that actmyname's ratings are outside of what I would consider appropriate, which is why I didn't take action to immediately remove him. But from what I've seen, it does seem likely that he is too trigger-happy.


i was negative trusted because i was offering somebody to merit my good posts and id merit his good posts..... i didnt think this would be against the rules...... i thought the point of merit system was to merit good posts........ i wasnt saying hey merit me for some crap post and ill do the same??? and i was banned 7 days i learned my lesson from that was sorry i honestly wasnt trying to "Farm" or "Cheat" i was making some decent posts and nobody was seeing them so i thought that could help.... i think me being banned 7 days was enough i learned my lesson and i wouldnt even try to ask anybody for merit i will now just let it come organically even though it still sucks im 14 days away from senior member and it will take FOREVER to get 250 merit.... 7 day ban taught me a lesson, the untrust from act is just a slap in the face when ive actually been a legit member for half a year and never did anything wrong before and honestly wasnt trying to cheat the system..... 7 day ban was my warning and i wouldnt do anything again then he just untrusts me right when i come back when im trying to be a good member .. i hope this can be fixed because ruining my account over a mistake/ misinterpertation isnt fair , if i knew asking people to merit my good posts and id look at their good posts i wouldnt have bothered getting untrusted / banned for 1 merit point out of 250...
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February 03, 2018, 07:17:21 PM
 #2197

0.4 + 0.00075 × 18 = 0.4135.

Returning that to bc1qyhhkhdcml6cfzsjk3wm42jezu689f3mghh3lea

Please confirm.

Sorry for the interference but i think that you make a wrong calculation... As you wrote this the result is 7.2135BTC. Shocked Grin

They really need to add negative merit to this forum...
oh c'mon, You can't demerit Sarcasm, How could you?

Yeah, but you can demerit stupidity  Roll Eyes
Don't know how that system will work but I'm sure if you(Assuming you a source of demerit) start de-meriting them you get out of stock every month.

Haha, I'd probably be out by the end of the week given the current state of the forums.
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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February 03, 2018, 07:27:24 PM
 #2198

I´m sympathetic to this viewpoint. Many people don´t seem to bother with the merit system
at all, which artificially reduces the supply of merit. I read somewhere that roughly 600k merits
were initially distributed.

600k  merits were not announced in the official thread and it can  be a rumor. That figure seems to be quite high for me.


Here is a quote regarding 600k merits initially given out.  Right from the horses mouth ( Cheesy Cheesy):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg28927946#msg28927946

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
Lauda
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February 03, 2018, 07:28:14 PM
Merited by nullius (1)
 #2199

So what are you proposing that be done against shady behavior regarding the merit system? Nothing? Or are you simply saying that *we could/should* tag them, but that some of the tag's by actmyname were unwarranted?
I think that tagging may be appropriate in particularly obvious cases, or particularly egregious cases involving hundreds of merit points and several posts. But generally you should start out by assuming good faith, and only change that opinion as the evidence really piles up. Tagging someone immediately after an instance of apparently-inexplicable meriting is too trigger-happy IMO. Even if it is a case of illegitimate merit, even hundreds of illegitimate merit points are not much of a problem IMO, so you have to ask whether it's worthwhile to possibly make a mistake by tagging someone who is merely suspicious.
Alright. So it is clear that we should tag people similarly how we tag people for trust abuse (e.g. leaving positive trust to your own alt). I do think that hundreds of merit points are quite a big problem, in fact. Sure, the fool will likely end up with nothing eventually. However(!), hundreds of points being spent on your own army of shitposting accounts can have a significant impact (multiplied by the number of people doing it) for quite some time (until they run out/get caught).

Now, I'm not 100% sure that actmyname's ratings are outside of what I would consider appropriate, which is why I didn't take action to immediately remove him. But from what I've seen, it does seem likely that he is too trigger-happy.
It's probably due to him being a newcomer to the DT system. I'm sure he learn and act accordingly.

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Activity: 329
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February 03, 2018, 08:02:33 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), Semosuchi Tesongrato (1)
 #2200

As other members already stated, this is a private forum, so the owner has any right to do what he thinks is the best move to improve his property.
It doesn't make any sense to complain about any aspect we don't like; much better to be grateful for the opportunity we have to learn a lot and - eventually - to have a little extra income from campaigns.

So, not with the intention to complain, but just to offer some ideas, here are my two cents: the intention behind the merit system is very good, and I think that only spammers and shitposters don't agree. What I find inefficient - and probably more of the "complainers" agree with me - are mainly these two aspect:

1) the system is really too unbalanced in favor of old members. I understand that I have to earn my position, and I agree that only "good members" will rank up. But if I read the old posts of a lot of high rank members, I find a lot of shitpost, and I just wonder why "they" had this privilege by luck in the meanwhile I have to work hard for the same results. I agree, life is unfair, but this aspect is very disturbing.

2) the merits are too scarce. I had ONE. Now I have THREE. Really, a so little number make me anxious to give them. Even if I like a post. I think it's the same for other low rank members. The result is that may be I write a masterwork (I'd like...) but nobody has merit to give to me.
The only members with a lot of merits to give are Legendaries (another privilege..), but it seems that they prefer to reward each other, may be just to show friendship. I'm pretty sure you did some math projections, but in this way the system it's really too rigid. Of course, may be I'm wrong. We'll see.

But please accept the idea that - even if the meirt system is a good point to start - there is a lot of space for improvement.





It's too early to get a clear picture, but my thoughts so far:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up. The forum is not a welfare system; you don't run through a few hoops and then get paid for doing something that nobody actually wants. I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them. I very much do not want to destroy the sig-ad/airdrop/bounty "industry". But I am not going to tolerate people posting garbage upon garbage. If the merit system completely fails and I can't think of anything else to replace it, then my next step will probably be to completely remove all ways for forum users to make money from posting (eg. removing signatures entirely).

Maybe there are ways for people who were making money by posting garbage on the forum to make money on other sites with easy bounties, etc. (For example, I don't know if they're actually any good, but https://bountyhive.io is currently advertising on the forum.) But people should use the forum to talk about these money-making ideas, not as a way of making money itself. Once you spend a lot of time here, you may be able to make some money here (which is great!), but you should consider this a far-off hope, not your primary objective.

BTW, if anyone has any ideas for simple things that these ex-nonsense-posters could usefully do to make money, I think that this'd be a good project right now. There are apparently quite a few people who were making money on the forum and could use guidance. Even though their past activities were not good for this forum, I doubt that they are useless in general.



Merit awards may be too spotty/uneven currently, though it's still too early to say. In addition to continuously adding more sources, if things could still use improvement in this regard in a couple of months, I may do something like decay old sMerit and unused source merit and randomly redistribute the decayed merit. How the random distribution would work would magnify past merit -- so perhaps you would get an increased chance of winning extra merit for every post you've made which has at least 1 merit, but certainly you would not get any extra merit if none of your posts was ever merited.

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

I think that actmyname has been too hasty with some of his negatives, but I haven't had time to look carefully enough into it to justify making forceful changes. I did exclude actmyname from my trust list, so another DT1 could remove him from the default trust network by doing the same.

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