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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 137821 times)
TMAN
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www.gunbot.uk/tman/ - LEGENDARY SELF MADE BITCHES


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January 27, 2018, 10:08:42 PM
 #1601

Should the sam rule apply, more seriously, to merit?
Yes, no, and maybe.
There are threads where people actively search for recommendations on posts to merit, going there and suggesting posts (even if they are your own) is alright, it's even wanted. I dont see harm in it.
Another case would it be when you are sending unsolicited PMs to people who you suspect to have big amounts of sMerit. Here it should be 100% not allowed. Aggressive begging cant be tolerated.
When it comes to a post/thread, imo it depends on the content of it. Some threads currently ask for donations, and that's OK. They could ask for merit donations instead of BTC donations, I would find that OK.
Some threads have avertisements, and that's Ok, similar situation. This does not apply to all threads/posts alike, I think it's something everyone has to determine for themselve individually. Find your own line.


I dont know if I should post this but I already got a pm like that.
What are the consequences for someone doing it?

Name them and shame them bud, I have given loads out and only had a few PM's of thanks - no begging, if I had begging ones I would be naming, shaming and asking DT to neg.

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erfan55
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January 27, 2018, 10:23:58 PM
 #1602

Next days in other forums or facebook, twitter, there will be thousands topics  of selling Merit :|

I need 10 Merit to become a Member :|
lenoli
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January 27, 2018, 10:27:47 PM
Merited by TMAN (1)
 #1603

Next days in other forums or facebook, twitter, there will be thousands topics  of selling Merit :|

I need 10 Merit to become a Member :|

you can just try to make good and constructive posts other members will give you merit for it. Merit system was just created for it, try hard and you will succeed

good luck...
JayJuanGee
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Activity: 2016
Merit: 2017


How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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January 27, 2018, 10:47:28 PM
 #1604

In local board a sad problem. Many users with high rank (Legendary - Hero) send their sMerit into the void (for example, send sMerit theymos-satoshi or other inactive users with old messages), thereby leading sMerit out of circulation.

Example:



Original message:
вoт жaль чтo мoжнo тoлькo 50 мepитoв мoжнo oтпpaвить xoтeл вce мepиты oтпpaвить тeймocy a пoлyчилocь тoлькo 50  ( дpyзьям я oтпpaвлял пo 20 )  coвeтyю вceм лeгeндapи cдeлaть тoжe caмoe oтпpaвить вce мepиты eмy

Translate:
it's a pity that you can only send 50 merits you want to send all merits send theymosand it turned out only 50 (friends I sent to 20) I advise all the legendaries to do the same thing to send all merits to him

Seems to me that Peloso and those kind of disrupters should be banned because they are not really constructive in their sabotage attempts.  They get called out for being abusive with the merits, and then they one up their bullshit.  NOT needed or necessary.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
Brik03
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January 27, 2018, 10:59:36 PM
 #1605

I agree with the Merit system to ensure that there is no spam or meaningless messages used just to make post and activity numbers. But I think it is also right to look at the other side of this change. Members who were already Legendary depart with 1000 Merit while those who were in Hero (maybe even near the Legendary) will start with 500 Merit. An exaggeration in my opinion. All is well but we must also give the opportunity to the new to go up in grade or at least to put everyone on the same level.
Cent21
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January 27, 2018, 11:08:03 PM
Merited by pawel7777 (1)
 #1606


I think that biggest problem of this merit system is that a lot of people is not using it. They simply ignore it.

Could visibility be increased changing the "+merit" color?


JayJuanGee
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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January 27, 2018, 11:18:41 PM
Merited by coinsniperX (1)
 #1607

Merit is a new system where older users can withhold merit from younger users so they can't rank up and earn all the bounties!

I don't think so, just look at this thread, a lot of higher rank members are already giving merits to lower rank members. This new method is not about hoarding bounties, this is about preserving the quality of the forum. There are a lot of forums in the internet that are already using the merit system in terms of likes and upvotes and so far it's been helping improve the quality of their forums.

Not sure you can say that at this stage though.. just because a trickle of new users in this thread (maybe 10% or so) are getting merit doesn't mean it's working. A lot are getting merit just because they are complaining that they don't have any merit and that it's unfair lol.

Out there in the wild: it may turn out that new users seldom get any merit at all.

Check this young account out..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828014.0

right attitude, quality post.. lots of merit from lots of people.. it is working fella



Again, that is just one sample, one data point. It could even just be an anomaly.

For every one user that makes a hot post/thread and gets tons of merit. You could have 99 users who get next to nothing or anything substantial.

Well, I am not sure that this is a very appropriate case study. Or are you willing to tell me that the only way to get merits is to make threads and posts where you unconditionally praise the new rules with a deferential attitude? BTW, I happen to agree with every line written in that OP as I have also stated in one post of mine in that same thread. But in that same post I've also outlined what in my opinion will not work with this new system.


I have a personality and a way of writing that does not appeal to very many people; however, if I had a lower rank or I was just coming to the forum, I may consider either modifying my way of posting to rank up or just keeping with my regular style and to find out whether I receive very many merits. 

Even if you do not rank up, you are not really hurt either way in terms of being able to communicate ideas and to brainstorm ideas, and no one is stopping you from posting your ideas.  I have found that my style and my ideas resonate with some folks (that seems to be a kind of minority), and they do not resonate with others, yet over the years, I have pretty much stuck to my guns, and it seems to work out o.k. with me in terms of various forums and also in terms of my real world interactions.   

I have marked bold the crucial part of your post. That's actually the problem. To rank up (right or wrong most people want to rank up, be it because they want to run signature campaigns, be it for simple reasons of prestige) people WILL change the way they are posting, but the move may not be in the desired direction. I will make an example to make this case clear.

Sure, there are going to be some folks who change their behavior more than others in order to adapt to the new system and what they are attempting to achieve.

I don't know if you are familiar with the DeepOnion project and how it unfolded. As soon as their "airdrop" (in fact a signature campaign) had become economically valuable, many people wanted to join it. But in the community there were also a lot of critical voices, who were raising doubts and critics. They all got banned from the airdrop and their critical posts were deleted from the thread. Which has been the consequence? The consequence has been that this "system of reward and punishment" has selected a community made only by people fanatically in favor of the status quo. I am not judging the quality of that project here, I'm just exposing a pattern of human behavior.

You even seem to concede that this DeepOnion project might not be a good example because it is such an extreme, and I find it difficult to give much weight to such a comparison when you are providing attributes that do not really exist with this forum, the management of this forum or Theymos.

Yeah, fuck, Theymos has been accused of having various controlling and censoring tendencies and he has even been accused of running off with donations, but a vast majority of those accusations are pure bullshit.  Sure, there is going to be some factual evidence to support these kinds of accusations, but if you spend enough time around here, you will tend to find that there is a considerable amount of decentralization and even tolerance of a variety of views, and various kinds of proposals to change the systems are attempts to improve the space or to adapt to changes in the community too.


Of course you cannot compare the new rules of BCT with that totalitarian management of DeepOnion's thread, but both has something in common: they end up rewarding those who praise the system and the status quo and punish those who raise a critical voice.

Yeah.. you admit an extreme comparison, yet you still want to assert that there is similarities.  O.k.

And you can already see the first signs of such a tendence here in these threads about the new merit system. Juniors who are posting here to praise the system get plenty of merits, critical voices don't.

Sure there is some truth to your assertion, but folks who frame matters in terms of positive terms are likely to get more praise than negative nancies.  That is the way of the world.  Do you want to hang around folks who are constantly complaining?  I tend to filter those kinds of toxic folks out of my life to the extent feasible.

Certainly there are ways to have constructive feedback without coming off as a whiner and certainly there are ways to be critical without going on some stupid-ass tirade.  Accordingly, I think that if folks are able to be constructively critical, then they can still earn merits. 

By the way, I feel similar about bitcoin bashers.. there are a lot of fucking whiners, and if you are going to whine about it, then you need to bring a whole hell of a lot more evidence (and logic) to the table to overcome my already informed views about the fundamental strengths of bitcoin.   


Which do you think will be the consequences long term?
DeepOnion's thread has rapidly become unreadable, consisting in a mere chorus of enthusiastic hyping statements.
What will happen to Bitcointalk?

Again, you are making an inadequate comparison.  I think that theymos is making these implementations in good faith, and surely I hope that he has folks helping him out because sometimes, it can be quite overwhelming to figure out all the good, bad and the ugly going on with any kind of new system, and how it might disparately impact some folks.  I personally think that the initial merit distribution should have been based on a kind of prorata based on activity level rather than giving the minimum merit for each rank, and I have repeated this a few times (as have a few other posters), but sometimes it may not be easy to go back and retroactively fix - even though we see that out of "fairness" Theymos had retroactively gone back and gave 1000 merits rather than 500 merits to those members with 775 or higher activity levels at the time of the distribution.


Shitposting will be reduced - and this is GOOD.

It should be.


But variety of opinions will as well shrink, because of natural selection. You'll have less shitposting but much more buttlickingposting. And worse of all, more and more a single line of thought.

Maybe, there might be more butt kissing posts, perhaps?  Overall, I think that people will still post what they want, and probably, the more likely outcome, they may put a bit more effort into some of their posts considering that they might earn some merits if they back up their position a bit better, rather than just typing one liners (conclusions only).

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
coinsniperX
Member
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Activity: 224
Merit: 11


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January 27, 2018, 11:29:08 PM
 #1608

Merit is a new system where older users can withhold merit from younger users so they can't rank up and earn all the bounties!

I don't think so, just look at this thread, a lot of higher rank members are already giving merits to lower rank members. This new method is not about hoarding bounties, this is about preserving the quality of the forum. There are a lot of forums in the internet that are already using the merit system in terms of likes and upvotes and so far it's been helping improve the quality of their forums.

Not sure you can say that at this stage though.. just because a trickle of new users in this thread (maybe 10% or so) are getting merit doesn't mean it's working. A lot are getting merit just because they are complaining that they don't have any merit and that it's unfair lol.

Out there in the wild: it may turn out that new users seldom get any merit at all.

Check this young account out..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828014.0

right attitude, quality post.. lots of merit from lots of people.. it is working fella



Again, that is just one sample, one data point. It could even just be an anomaly.

For every one user that makes a hot post/thread and gets tons of merit. You could have 99 users who get next to nothing or anything substantial.

Well, I am not sure that this is a very appropriate case study. Or are you willing to tell me that the only way to get merits is to make threads and posts where you unconditionally praise the new rules with a deferential attitude? BTW, I happen to agree with every line written in that OP as I have also stated in one post of mine in that same thread. But in that same post I've also outlined what in my opinion will not work with this new system.


I have a personality and a way of writing that does not appeal to very many people; however, if I had a lower rank or I was just coming to the forum, I may consider either modifying my way of posting to rank up or just keeping with my regular style and to find out whether I receive very many merits. 

Even if you do not rank up, you are not really hurt either way in terms of being able to communicate ideas and to brainstorm ideas, and no one is stopping you from posting your ideas.  I have found that my style and my ideas resonate with some folks (that seems to be a kind of minority), and they do not resonate with others, yet over the years, I have pretty much stuck to my guns, and it seems to work out o.k. with me in terms of various forums and also in terms of my real world interactions.   

I have marked bold the crucial part of your post. That's actually the problem. To rank up (right or wrong most people want to rank up, be it because they want to run signature campaigns, be it for simple reasons of prestige) people WILL change the way they are posting, but the move may not be in the desired direction. I will make an example to make this case clear.

Sure, there are going to be some folks who change their behavior more than others in order to adapt to the new system and what they are attempting to achieve.

I don't know if you are familiar with the DeepOnion project and how it unfolded. As soon as their "airdrop" (in fact a signature campaign) had become economically valuable, many people wanted to join it. But in the community there were also a lot of critical voices, who were raising doubts and critics. They all got banned from the airdrop and their critical posts were deleted from the thread. Which has been the consequence? The consequence has been that this "system of reward and punishment" has selected a community made only by people fanatically in favor of the status quo. I am not judging the quality of that project here, I'm just exposing a pattern of human behavior.

You even seem to concede that this DeepOnion project might not be a good example because it is such an extreme, and I find it difficult to give much weight to such a comparison when you are providing attributes that do not really exist with this forum, the management of this forum or Theymos.

Yeah, fuck, Theymos has been accused of having various controlling and censoring tendencies and he has even been accused of running off with donations, but a vast majority of those accusations are pure bullshit.  Sure, there is going to be some factual evidence to support these kinds of accusations, but if you spend enough time around here, you will tend to find that there is a considerable amount of decentralization and even tolerance of a variety of views, and various kinds of proposals to change the systems are attempts to improve the space or to adapt to changes in the community too.


Of course you cannot compare the new rules of BCT with that totalitarian management of DeepOnion's thread, but both has something in common: they end up rewarding those who praise the system and the status quo and punish those who raise a critical voice.

Yeah.. you admit an extreme comparison, yet you still want to assert that there is similarities.  O.k.

And you can already see the first signs of such a tendence here in these threads about the new merit system. Juniors who are posting here to praise the system get plenty of merits, critical voices don't.

Sure there is some truth to your assertion, but folks who frame matters in terms of positive terms are likely to get more praise than negative nancies.  That is the way of the world.  Do you want to hang around folks who are constantly complaining?  I tend to filter those kinds of toxic folks out of my life to the extent feasible.

Certainly there are ways to have constructive feedback without coming off as a whiner and certainly there are ways to be critical without going on some stupid-ass tirade.  Accordingly, I think that if folks are able to be constructively critical, then they can still earn merits. 

By the way, I feel similar about bitcoin bashers.. there are a lot of fucking whiners, and if you are going to whine about it, then you need to bring a whole hell of a lot more evidence (and logic) to the table to overcome my already informed views about the fundamental strengths of bitcoin.   


Which do you think will be the consequences long term?
DeepOnion's thread has rapidly become unreadable, consisting in a mere chorus of enthusiastic hyping statements.
What will happen to Bitcointalk?

Again, you are making an inadequate comparison.  I think that theymos is making these implementations in good faith, and surely I hope that he has folks helping him out because sometimes, it can be quite overwhelming to figure out all the good, bad and the ugly going on with any kind of new system, and how it might disparately impact some folks.  I personally think that the initial merit distribution should have been based on a kind of prorata based on activity level rather than giving the minimum merit for each rank, and I have repeated this a few times (as have a few other posters), but sometimes it may not be easy to go back and retroactively fix - even though we see that out of "fairness" Theymos had retroactively gone back and gave 1000 merits rather than 500 merits to those members with 775 or higher activity levels at the time of the distribution.


Shitposting will be reduced - and this is GOOD.

It should be.


But variety of opinions will as well shrink, because of natural selection. You'll have less shitposting but much more buttlickingposting. And worse of all, more and more a single line of thought.

Maybe, there might be more butt kissing posts, perhaps?  Overall, I think that people will still post what they want, and probably, the more likely outcome, they may put a bit more effort into some of their posts considering that they might earn some merits if they back up their position a bit better, rather than just typing one liners (conclusions only).
F*ck yeah! i already watching an army of butt kissing members all over the forum! Is that what this system brings for us? Grin Grin Grin
Gave you my 1 merit, you are one of a few adequate people here!
theunbeatable
Sr. Member
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Activity: 546
Merit: 258

I could either watch it happen or be a part of it


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January 27, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
 #1609

Please accept my apologies if this has been discussed, I'm not reading through 82 pages.


Currently, the forum's general protocol frowns heavily on the act of asking for positive trust in return for a transaction. Hell, I've been given negative trust (unfairly) for simply stating that I would conduct a transaction for free if the other person would consider giving me trust equal to the experience.

Should the sam rule apply, more seriously, to merit?

I just came across a post where someone explained a simple idea and then said "if you like my idea, send me merit." There is no negative merit, so an ask like this seems more serious than asking for trust.

What's the consensus here, if someone is asking for merit should they be penalized or ostracized or "corrected" as to the correct forum protocol to not do so?

Theymos stated that : Do not beg for merit excessively.
The trust system and the merit system are a two different thing, merits have been designed to improve the quality of posts of those who are here in this forum, and yes there is a consensus here. Because the merit system is different from the trust system you can have negative trusts if you are begging, selling and buying merits.
In simple terms terms you can have -100 plus trust rating even and have 1000 plus merits at the same time. Wink
coinsniperX
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Activity: 224
Merit: 11


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January 27, 2018, 11:43:14 PM
 #1610

it is a good news to read, because now the users of bitcoin is always increase so the bitcoin preparing and offering good system such as merit.
+1 Ass licking post  Cry When will you realize that this system is not about bitcoin, it's about people who want monopolize their influence. It's fully against Satoshi vision. But, better I will be silent, as all others )))
iluvbitcoins
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Freedom&Honor


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January 27, 2018, 11:46:33 PM
 #1611

How was it determined how many sMerits we get?
For the last couple of days I thought I'd have 500 sMerits, but seems that's not the case
http://prntscr.com/i6jetn

Looking for a signature campaign.
Yanisumin
Hero Member
*****
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Activity: 651
Merit: 502



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January 27, 2018, 11:46:39 PM
Merited by Renji Abarai (1)
 #1612


I think that biggest problem of this merit system is that a lot of people is not using it. They simply ignore it.

Could visibility be increased changing the "+merit" color?



The merit system have been designed few days ago. Some of the members are not even going back online since this system was implemented. Sooner, people will get used to it. And if there are things like ignoring the merit system and ignoring the posts (even the constructive one), they won't be benefited for not doing that and that means that they are the type of people who doesn't want to embrace the new change. This new system teaches us to have a constructive post, and be open minded and teaches us to give those posts the merit they deserve.

exus
Full Member
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Activity: 147
Merit: 111



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January 27, 2018, 11:49:06 PM
 #1613

How was it determined how many sMerits we get?
For the last couple of days I thought I'd have 500 sMerits, but seems that's not the case
http://prntscr.com/i6jetn

See the first post of this topic:
"For current members, your initial merit score is equal to the minimum required to your rank. Of that, a certain amount (less than the usual half) is spendable. The spendable amount was calculated based on your current rank and the number of activity points you earned in the last year. A Legendary member who hasn't posted in the last year would still be Legendary, but would not have any spendable merit."
pawel7777
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Activity: 1792
Merit: 1084


We're all gonna make it


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January 27, 2018, 11:55:26 PM
 #1614

..... All is well but we must also give the opportunity to the new to go up in grade...

That's why you have no merit requirement up to junior level and only 10 for a member. Highest ranks are supposed to be hard to achieve. The previous system based on activity was way too easy.

I hope the new highest rank is introduced, so all the current Legendaries have something to strive for.


I think that biggest problem of this merit system is that a lot of people is not using it. They simply ignore it.

Could visibility be increased changing the "+merit" color?


Not sure whether people ignore it, or just waiting to see how this system will pan out. You don't want to shoot yourself out in the first week.

But changing colour is a great idea, green should do the trick.

+ Having sMerit balance shown on the Merit summary page would be useful (not visible for everyone though)

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Semosuchi Tesongrato
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January 28, 2018, 12:14:59 AM
 #1615

I don't know how much the merit system will improve the quality of the posts.
For what I can understand, the only result is to make impossible for low ranks to grow (please don't tell me "Write good posts and you'll receive merits." It's a lie, and you know it: for example, even if I like a post, I can give any merit)
Of course legendaries are very happy, because this novelty "freeze" the situation in their advantage.
But, by definition, nothing static is good, in this dynamic world.

I predict that in just some weeks the system - at least in this way - simply will fail.

We'll see.

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khaled0111
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January 28, 2018, 12:17:06 AM
 #1616

So, if I send merit points to another user it will be deduced from my account? Most of bitcoiners are holder by nature I don't think they will spend their points even if they cross a good post ( maybe they will do if you pay them well  Wink )

It will be hard for moderators to check all members posts if they ask for their merit points (10 constructive posts), it would be better to use a Demerit system to punish shitposters.


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ilpipita
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January 28, 2018, 12:17:13 AM
Last edit: January 28, 2018, 12:37:26 AM by ilpipita
 #1617

How was it determined how many sMerits we get?
For the last couple of days I thought I'd have 500 sMerits, but seems that's not the case
http://prntscr.com/i6jetn
By now, Theymos decided that the merit suytem has automatically given users certain number of merits which correspond to their current ranks, regardless of their current activities. For example: 10 merits for Members; 100 Merits for Full members, 250 Merits for Senior members, 500 merits for Heros; and 1000 Merits for Ledgendaries. That's the original allocation of merit system; however, some days after that point, Theymos corrected it a little bit by reallocating more merit points for users whom are Heros but has already had above 700 activities (I don't remember exactly the number of activities range for the case, you can check in previous threads).
Hope it helps, and please send me Merits as gifts if possible. I almost upgraded to Member before launching of merit system.

I have recheck previous threads, the exact one is
I decided that the previous allocation was too unfair in this area, so everyone with activity >= 775 got 500 more merit if they didn't already have 1000 merit (and also Lutpin). No extra sMerit, though.
ilpipita
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January 28, 2018, 12:21:59 AM
 #1618

So, if I send merit points to another user it will be deduced from my account? Most of bitcoiners are holder by nature I don't think they will spend their points even if they cross a good post ( maybe they will do if you pay them well  Wink )

It will be hard for moderators to check all members posts if they ask for their merit points (10 constructive posts), it would be better to use a Demerit system to punish shitposters.


No, actually not. You won't lose your merits for sure. What you really send to others is your sMerit, which is sendable merit. Hence, what you will lose is sMerit, and you have nothing to gain for keeping sMerits for yourself. Only merits will help you to satisfy new ranking system which highly correlated with both the your merit points and your total number of activities.

Additionally, users who receiving merits also increase their sMerits by 50 percent. I mean when they get 10 merits from others, they actions focally have 5 more sMerits in their accounts, which in turn allow them to send those sMerits to others as gifts and help. That is the way merit system work and the approach in which users help each other as real, strong community over time.

 Merits of my threads useful, constructive, ok? Smiley
Semosuchi Tesongrato
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January 28, 2018, 12:30:29 AM
 #1619

It's not only about to be a "holder". You simply don't have merit to spend.
I don't have any, members have ONE. When it's gone, it's gone. Oh, after it's gone, it became 0,5!!!!! So very fast...no more merits on the forum (the 8'000 from "mining are insufficient for sure)
The only way to grow is to have some legendary friends that will "sponsor" you.
The forum now is property of an elite of high ranks, the others can only beg for mercy.
It has nothing to do with the quality of post, only with power.


So, if I send merit points to another user it will be deduced from my account? Most of bitcoiners are holder by nature I don't think they will spend their points even if they cross a good post ( maybe they will do if you pay them well  Wink )

It will be hard for moderators to check all members posts if they ask for their merit points (10 constructive posts), it would be better to use a Demerit system to punish shitposters.



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━ ━━ ━━━━ ━━━━━━  We now invite you to become part of PHASE2 expansion In Partnership With REDTUBE
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ilpipita
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January 28, 2018, 12:31:42 AM
 #1620

We do not know the participants of this forum, who they are in real life and what their mental abilities are. If a participant has the title of Legendary, can he decide whose posts are useful and constructive? Sorry for such a question.
In fact, not only Ledgendaries have the rights to send smerits ( I would like to emphasize that sMerits, not Merits), but also Heroes, Senior Members, Full members, and Members too. The problem is Heroes and Ledgendaries have more sMerits since the start of merit system to give. However, everyone in the forum can help each other to rank up, to improve the quality of posts in the forum, to make the forum as a better one for discussion.
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