[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Honest Tim]

Thanks, UdjinM6. That gives me lots of stuff to check out.

As luck would have it, I am already about half-way into a -salvagewallet run. I'll post if it produces anything useful.

I didn't save logs from before (doh, but I was flailing by then) but I can probably replicate the tests in a while.

More when I know more. Thanks again.

Edit: Update - Joy! The -salvagewallet run worked. All the coins are back. No more problems for the moment. Oh, the "bloated" wallet before the salvage was 3768KB and after the run the new wallet is 2800KB - not sure if that is significant.
I'm guessing there is now no need to try to replicate the old errors to generate logs - hope that's OK with you.

Happy Dark camper here.     

Geezer, you must be so relieved!!
I know its the interwebs, but you originally sounded "so so" about it before!
Delighted for you anyway.

[patrolman]

Thanks, UdjinM6. That gives me lots of stuff to check out.

As luck would have it, I am already about half-way into a -salvagewallet run. I'll post if it produces anything useful.

I didn't save logs from before (doh, but I was flailing by then) but I can probably replicate the tests in a while.

More when I know more. Thanks again.

Edit: Update - Joy! The -salvagewallet run worked. All the coins are back. No more problems for the moment. Oh, the "bloated" wallet before the salvage was 3768KB and after the run the new wallet is 2800KB - not sure if that is significant.
I'm guessing there is now no need to try to replicate the old errors to generate logs - hope that's OK with you.

Happy Dark camper here.      

I'm glad you got them back. Perhaps now would be a good time to discuss whether the option for automatic wallet.dat backups after Darksend rounds is a feasible idea. After all, the wallet is unlocked when Darksend mixing is taking place.

[coins101]

How about that 7k DRK sell on Cryptsy just now?

+ the 10k dump on bitfinex = ~17k

i'm glad otoh got part of his order filled and that the drk have been transferred out of  weak hands.

How do you know it wasn't him?

Back online now from west coast US, as I said before I won't create artificial volume by selling in to my own walls, many thanks for the coins who ever sold there, it will be a day or two before I can get my MN wallets live again and update to v.11.0.13, then I will restart any of my dropped MNs and add a few new ones I expect.

What happened to the rest of the buy walls that I thought were going to stay up for people to sell into if they desired? Just curious.

My posts about this disappeared in the forum outage, basically I gave notice that I would be reducing them so as to lower my risk on the exchanges, they appeared to have done their job at the time as all the trading was occurring well above them, so I left 100 BTC bid at 0.0666 on Cryptsy, plus quite a few bids higher up and some on finex, I forgot how much, quite a bit got sold in to with the issues of the last few days and I was afk traveling so couldn't reinforce the walls and anyway didn't want to risk moving coins even if I could, but there's bids of mine for at least $10,000 left on finex atm.

So far I've been unable to update my wallet and I'm not sure if I'll put a wall back on finex, the price is staying above my floor so it probably isn't really necessary, the wall on Cryptsy I would definitely keep topped up if it got sold in to, there are still approx 500 BTC set aside for this if necessary.

I had to double check my screen for smudges, just in case there was a . there somewhere. lol

like I said, otohcoin 

[g4q34g4qg47ww]

How about that 7k DRK sell on Cryptsy just now?

+ the 10k dump on bitfinex = ~17k

i'm glad otoh got part of his order filled and that the drk have been transferred out of  weak hands.

How do you know it wasn't him?

Back online now from west coast US, as I said before I won't create artificial volume by selling in to my own walls, many thanks for the coins who ever sold there, it will be a day or two before I can get my MN wallets live again and update to v.11.0.13, then I will restart any of my dropped MNs and add a few new ones I expect.

What happened to the rest of the buy walls that I thought were going to stay up for people to sell into if they desired? Just curious.

My posts about this disappeared in the forum outage, basically I gave notice that I would be reducing them so as to lower my risk on the exchanges, they appeared to have done their job at the time as all the trading was occurring well above them, so I left 100 BTC bid at 0.0666 on Cryptsy, plus quite a few bids higher up and some on finex, I forgot how much, quite a bit got sold in to with the issues of the last few days and I was afk traveling so couldn't reinforce the walls and anyway didn't want to risk moving coins even if I could, but there's bids of mine for at least $10,000 left on finex atm.

So far I've been unable to update my wallet and I'm not sure if I'll put a wall back on finex, the price is staying above my floor so it probably isn't really necessary, the wall on Cryptsy I would definitely keep topped up if it got sold in to, there are still approx 500 BTC set aside for this if necessary.

I had to double check my screen for smudges, just in case there was a . there somewhere. lol

like I said, otohcoin  

He's pretty damn cool too! If you are going to be trapped inside of a *couple of forums with someone for a few years we certainly could have done worse.

[strix]

Well, we are back up, it seems... but I sure do like the "alternate site." 

[coins101]

Just realised that being on bitcoin core means DRK is back in beta.

[toknormal]

you mean 99 or 299?

I mean 99.

What's the reason for another crash?  I don't get it?

Speculation.

Right now, most of Bitcoin's value has been speculative. In other words it hasn't been needed as a currency and its speculative value as such is available to chart traders to make money on. They can take the value anywhere as long as the monetary value (the amount of Bitcoin that's needed to fill the pipes of retail merchants, international money transfers and all needs other than those of speculative 'gamblers') remains below the market value.

If the Bitcoin price were to go to $99, the marketcap would still be around $1.3 Billion. Probably more than enough to cover the turnover of the current bitcoin economy when you exclude speculative trading.

Remember, Overstock only took around $3 million in bitcoin sales last year. Lets be generous and multiply that by 100 to pretend that Overstock's Bitcoin turnover is only 1% of the industry total. That gives you a marketcap of $300 million which, when you factor in the coin supply, comes out at a bitcoin price of $23 dollars.

So 23$ is the bottom below which it's undervalued. Therefore even at $99, speculative trading would still have a margin over the 'real' monetary value of bitcoin. They are not likely to go below that though because the future prospective monetary value is so high that the speculative premium would be huge at that price level and such a low valuation would be unlikely to last long.

This is why I keep saying that adoption is everything. By garnering adoption you raise the floor below which speculative traders cannot go. Darkcoin has huge mileage to be gained in this domain and, to me it's going about it the right way. By taking the "warts an' all" approach where the problems all come to the surface early, thereby keeping the speculative premium low. The developer team can try things out and on a community that's reasonably accommodating and keep the balance between consolidation and development at an optimum without causing huge disruption in the markets. (The tiny wee DRK market that we have right now).

There is one thing that any market values over everything else when it comes to technology: reliability. It's like air safety. Something that's never spoken about by airlines but that underpins the value of everything they do.

If a cryptocurrency project is taking on a challenge as difficult as total anonymity (in addition to the 'double spend' problem which has only just been solved after decades of research) it would do well to concentrate on nothing else.

A product that does very little but very well is a dead cert for adoption. People don't care about bells and whistle's, they care about doing the big things right, and right every time. Mundane repetitiveness sells which is why I made my post yesterday about Darkcoin starting to leave the competition behind.

InstantX would be nice but we must not be distracted. Cryptocurrency is a monetary base - not a payments system. Anonymity and speed of confirmation are way different objectives and one should not be compromised for the sake of another.

The reason that I am not bothered about InstantX and that I think Darkcoin should not be wasting its time on it is that point of sale systems (POS) will never be be doing direct transactions with the blockchain. That will be taken care of by payment processors. The blockchain is a clearing system that is at least 1 tier away from point of sale. It doesn't matter if blockchain confirmation time gets down to 5 seconds, it still will never be able to compete with a buffered point of sale system that can instantly reverse the packet of cornflakes that the cashier accidently rung through from the person behind you in the queue.

For that reason, for me, Bitcoin's blockchain clearing time of 30 minutes to 1 hour is going to be much more attractive to the retail industry that a confirmation time of 20 seconds. 30 minutes at least sounds like it has reliability behind it whereas 20 seconds will sound flaky as f*ck.

Banks have a clearing time of 1-2 days so there isn't exactly a lot of urgency.

Stick with the anonymity priority for this coin because that's what it does well and a reduced blockchain confirmation time will only make it look like a toy.

[strix]

Just realised that being on bitcoin core means DRK is back in beta.

In my understanding it was never out of beta. I think that is what that first zero in the release number indicates (as in 0.11.0.13).

[toknormal]

I’ve always maintained that adoption is everything. In that vein, this Litecoin announcement…

http://www.reddit.com/r/litecoin/comments/2tgjto/official_litecoin_developers_and_litecoin/cnywl9x

Has had this market impact…

[sergiokkl]

Ltc pump!

[Lebubar]

Tok,
I most of the time agree with all what you say, and read your post with lot of intersest.
But I don't agree at all about InstantX. It will be be a killer, even I think that this particularity will make more speak about it than anonimity.

Edit : but agree 100% that adoption is everything.

[toknormal]

*********** Philosophical Alert **************

In summary:

[1] adoption is everything

[2] Darkcoin should keep InstantX in its pocket but, like a nuclear weapon, not deploy.

Bank clearing times are 1-2 days. Bitcoin clearing times are 30 minutes to 1 hour at most. Bitcoin's long clearing time relative to other crypto's has a big 'realiability' stock value. Although it's an 'annoyance' for many, Bitcoin is gaining a reputation as a monetary base and as such its slow clearing time ADDs to its value rather than detracts form it.

A 20 second clearing time will just look like a toy.

It still won't match payment processors who do 5 seconds by buffering the cornflakes from the "blockchain / interbank clearing system". Visa, Mastercard and Sagepay will not want to touch a 20 second clearing time with a bargepole. If cryptocurrencies eventually succeed in forming a monetary base then payment processors will be interested only in reliability, not clearing times.

We need to advance the debate on cryptos. They are trying to do everything at once and that's just stupid. Cryptos are a monetary base, not a payments system and therefore should be concerned with accruing adoption as a currency and not as a payments system.

Gold does not not get transferred quickly and yet still has a high value. You can trade it in an instant on Wall Street. Payment processors can wipe the floor with cryptos on POS technology so we shouldn't even try.

On the other hand, always remember:

Fiat: is highly levered credit money
Crypto: is unlevered base money

That is our first strength - economics.

Secondly:

Darkoin: has total privacy protected by unlimited redundancy
Bitcoin: has no privacy

Ergo: Darkcoin's values are:

[1] Slow blocktime (like Bitcoin)
[2] Privacy (not like Bitcoin)

[Minotaur26]

You are totally missing face to face transactions where there is no back end infrastructure, like paying on a vending machine, buying something on a traffic light or making a quick donation. Also meeting your dealer to buy half an ounce of weed, or buying something on a fair.  Having said that, quick confirmations are simply better than waiting half an hour, and 20 seconds confirmations would give businesses the possibility, specially SMBs to receive crypto without having to deal with a payment processor, bodegas don't necessarily want to open an account with Bitpay.  It is simply digital cash, all the things humans still do with cash today, that is a very nice market. Cash is instant and anonymous, Darkcoin needs both to be digital cash.

Also, depositing and moving coins between exchanges for arbitrage may be a nice application for InstantX

[toknormal]

Tok,
I most of the time agree with all what you say, and read your post with lot of intersest.
But I don't agree at all about InstantX. It will be be a killer, even I think that this particularity will make more speak about it than anonimity.

You're right as far as "today" is concerned, but what you maybe don't appreciate is how industry is seeing it. They have yet to invest and they are much more realistic about where a technology can fit into an economy.

I already had this argument with the Worldcoin community 1 year ago and they lost it.

Think of it this way. What happens when you're in the queue at the supermarket ?

[1] - you got overcharged at the checkout in the supermarket for an item that belonged to the customer behind you. The checkout person reverses the sale and immediately regenerates a credit and debit receipt to transfer the liability from you to the other customer

[2] - you just paid for your week's shopping at the checkout and suddenly realised that you needed a pack of chewing gum so you ask the checkout person to process another payment

Do you realise that no supermarket in the world would even consider a blockchain transaction that took 20 seconds in that circumstance ? Payment processors can blow 20 seconds to kingdom come and add a myriad of essential features that a blockchain transaction could never cope with (such as payment insurance, buffering, all sorts of stuff - like insuring the sale).

Forget InstantX. It's a gimmick and will definitely be seen as such by any serious payment processor (who is DRK's market).

What they want is pure gold backing their customers and they won't care if it takes 30 minutes. They'll pay the bill.

[Lebubar]

Tok,
I most of the time agree with all what you say, and read your post with lot of intersest.
But I don't agree at all about InstantX. It will be be a killer, even I think that this particularity will make more speak about it than anonimity.

You're right as far as "today" is concerned, but what you maybe don't appreciate is how industry is seeing it. They have yet to invest and they are much more realistic about where a technology can fit into an economy.

I already had this argument with the Worldcoin community 1 year ago and they lost it.

Think of it this way. What happens when you're in the queue at the supermarket ?

[1] - you got overcharged at the checkout in the supermarket for an item that belonged to the customer behind you. The checkout person reverses the sale and immediately regenerates a credit and debit receipt to transfer the liability from you to the other customer

[2] - you just paid for your week's shopping at the checkout and suddenly realised that you needed a pack of chewing gum so you ask the checkout person to process another payment

Do you realise that no supermarket in the world would even consider a blockchain transaction that took 20 seconds in that circumstance ? Payment processors can blow 20 seconds to kingdom come and add a myriad of essential features that a blockchain transaction could never cope with (such as payment insurance, buffering, all sorts of stuff - like insuring the sale).

Forget InstantX. It's a gimmick and will definitely be seen as such by any serious payment processor (who is DRK's market).

What they want is pure gold backing their customers and they won't care if it takes 30 minutes. They'll pay the bill.

Hmmm I didn't see the problem.
1- they send me back the amount of the dildo that belong to the girl behind me in the queue.
2- i make anothe InstantX of the amount of the condom that I forgot!

Can I remember you that actually to reverse back a payment it is not so simple.
Generally they must call the supervisor with THE key to unlock the system and make reverse possible. And always wait lot of time for this guy/gals to come and make this possible.

[toknormal]

You are totally missing face to face transactions where there is no back end infrastructure, like paying on a vending machine, buying something on a traffic light or making a quick donation. Also meeting your dealer to buy half an ounce of weed

That is, and always will be, a payment processor's market.

Can I remember you that actually to reverse back a payment it is not so simple.
Generally they must call the supervisor with THE key to reserve transaction. And always wait lot of time for this guy/gals to come and make this possible.

Because the ‘payment processor’ layer the buffers the blockchain can be adapted to the merchant’s requirements. No matter how fast a blockchain confirmation time is, supermarkets will ALWAYS contract payment processors to buffer their transactions because it gives them a huge amount of flexibility and speed.

A blockchain based technology will never out-perform a payment processor on speed, POS features, reliability, or ubiquity. They are just completely different economic roles.

...it was never the design priority of the blockchain to do that and DRK should not be trying to either. It's something that's far to far ahead of its time.

Garnering value to a cryptocurrency (any cryptocurrency) is far more important. We have to distinguish between money and technological convenience. They are very different things. Darkcoin set itself the goal of adding 1 property and 1 only to Bitcoin's 'perfect' design and that was financial privacy.

It should stick to that objective. The market will reward Darkcoin for sticking to a highly prioritised objective to the exclusion of everything else.

Darkcoin has perfectly shadowed bitcoin in all aspects - including the commercial interface - except anonymity. Bitcoin's slow block confirmation time is now being seen as a reference standard for security and reliability (remember, banks are 1-2 days, payment processors just make it look like it's faster by buffering everything).

A 20 second confirmation time will just look ridiculous to serious businesses. They won't find it credible.

DRK needs to continue to shadow Bitcoin in this regard as long as it remains the reference standard, and keep the 20 seconds in its pocket for a rainy day.

[Lebubar]

Not sure to take your point.
Anyway btc even if it is slow is not reversable at all...

And for me cresit card are not reversable either.

[oblox]

How is 20 seconds (again, speculation on end result for IX) a make-it-or-break-it for POS setups? I can think of it taking about as long to swipe a card and sign at some establishments, if not longer, pending connection.

[conf]

I’ve always maintained that adoption is everything. In that vein, this Litecoin announcement…

http://www.reddit.com/r/litecoin/comments/2tgjto/official_litecoin_developers_and_litecoin/cnywl9x

Has had this market impact…

... But a jump of almost 50% in just 24 hours?

[toknormal]

Not sure to take your point.
Anyway btc even if it is slow is not reversable at all...

And for me cresit card are not reversable either.

A monetary medium should on no account EVER be reversible.