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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 26253 times)
TECSHARE
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February 04, 2019, 12:34:59 PM
 #1101

weeew lordy

I can't tell if you're insane or just trying to troll me; maybe a combination of both.

If you really want the system changed, try being more rational when presenting your arguments. Coming across in the manner you do isn't very compelling. Neither is it for TECHSHARE.

I don't have anything else constructive to add to this conversation.

You mean like everyone else around here is being so rational? What about here and here? No one seems to be able to address any of these points, just constant topic sliding tactics like you are doing right now with that post.

Interesting this post got pulled off the top of this page. I am sure it is just yet another coincidence it was moved to the last page by a report of another post. So here I am presenting my ideas to the forum again. Anyone care to actually have a discussion about it?

BITCOINTALK STAFF SELECTIVELY ENFORCE THE RULES IN AN ATTEMPT TO CREATE A CHILL EFFECT AND PERMANENTLY REMOVE ME AND OTHERS FROM THIS FORUM AS RETALIATION FOR SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR, AND THAT OF THEIR PERSONAL CLIQUES.
"Apparently, so I am told, there exist "people" who prefer to wipe sitting down. From the front. Initial research indicates it could be up to half the population." -- benjamindees
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February 05, 2019, 06:16:28 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2019, 08:43:49 PM by Veleor
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #1102

Yes, they do that and there is a very clear case of trust abuse happening with me. I am not engaged in any shady active here, even I don't earn form signatures by posting here and there is nothing scammy I have done which should state Warning: Trade with extreme caution!.

This is how they try to mob anyone here who tries to speak in some truth about there manipulative works. This is a clear case of lowering the value of once reputed account, without any prove of it being compressed.

VIP account JusticeForYou has been blocked today.

After investigation, I consider the evidence to be most strongly consistent with the hypothesis that his email account was hacked and then used to take his forum account.

He has the same email address as before, but it's @gmx.com, and we all know how secure that is. The forum account was first newly-accessed via email-reset rather than by password. IP evidence is also generally suggestive of it not being the same person. I also find his general behavior to be suspicious.

I asked him some challenge questions related to data I have and the real BTC_Bear should know, but his answers were only half-correct, and are more consistent with having access to a bunch of emails going back to at least 2011 than having actually lived it.

However, while he definitely wouldn't have enough evidence to recover the account if he didn't already have access to it, I have enough doubt that I'm not willing to lock the account at this time. There are plausible explanations for the above evidence against him, and if he is a hacker, he's done an unusually large amount of research, at least. I'd say that there's a 25% chance of him being the original BTC_Bear.

I don't have alternative contact info for BTC_Bear or I'd try contacting him. He was very active on #bitcoin-otc IIRC; maybe someone can try asking nanotube or the other #bitcoin-otc regulars.

BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity to recognize & thank the original BTC_Bear (whether or not he is the current account owner), who on several occasions went to considerable effort to contribute to the forum in the early days.
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February 05, 2019, 06:41:42 PM
 #1103

Yes, they do that and there is a very clear case of trust abuse happening with me. I am not engaged in any shady active here, even I don't earn form signatures by posting here and there is nothing scammy I have done which should state Warning: Trade with extreme caution!.

This is how they try to mob anyone here who tries to speak in some truth about there manipulative works. This is a clear case of lowering the value of once reputed account, without any prove of it being compressed.

VIP account JusticeForYou has been blocked today.

After investigation, I consider the evidence to be most strongly consistent with the hypothesis that his email account was hacked and then used to take his forum account.

He has the same email address as before, but it's @gmx.com, and we all know how secure that is. The forum account was first newly-accessed via email-reset rather than by password. IP evidence is also generally suggestive of it not being the same person. I also find his general behavior to be suspicious.

I asked him some challenge questions related to data I have and the real BTC_Bear should know, but his answers were only half-correct, and are more consistent with having access to a bunch of emails going back to at least 2011 than having actually lived it.

However, while he definitely wouldn't have enough evidence to recover the account if he didn't already have access to it, I have enough doubt that I'm not willing to lock the account at this time. There are plausible explanations for the above evidence against him, and if he is a hacker, he's done an unusually large amount of research, at least. I'd say that there's a 25% chance of him being the original BTC_Bear.

I don't have alternative contact info for BTC_Bear or I'd try contacting him. He was very active on #bitcoin-otc IIRC; maybe someone can try asking nanotube or the other #bitcoin-otc regulars.

BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity to recognize & thank the original BTC_Bear (whether or not he is the current account owner), who on several occasions went to considerable effort to contribute to the forum in the early days.
You should work on your reading comprehension.

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February 05, 2019, 06:57:48 PM
Merited by Mr. Big (5), dbshck (4), suchmoon (4), LoyceV (4), chimk (4), sapta (3), actmyname (3), Danslip (2), asche (2), OgNasty (1), qwk (1), Alex_Sr (1), madnessteat (1)
 #1104

I do not view it as appropriate for trust ratings to relate primarily to non-trust matters. By giving someone negative trust, you're basically attaching a note to all of their posts telling people "warning: do not trade with this person!". If we can get DT working well enough, in the future I'd like to prevent guests from even viewing topics by negative-trust users in trust-enabled sections, so you have to ask yourself whether your negative trust would warrant this sort of significant effect.

In particular, in my view:
 - Giving negative trust for being an annoying poster is inappropriate, since this has nothing to do with their trustworthiness. If they're disrupting discussion or never adding anything, then that's something for moderators to deal with, and you should report their posts and/or complain in Meta about it.
 - Giving negative trust for merit trading and deceptive alt-account use may be appropriate, but you should use a light touch so that people don't feel paranoid.
 - You should be willing to forgive past mistakes if the person seems unlikely to do it again.
 - It is absolutely not appropriate to give someone negative trust because you disagree with them. I'm disappointed in the reaction to this post. Although H8bussesNbicycles is perhaps not particularly trustworthy for other reasons, the reasons many people gave for neg-trusting him are inappropriate. You can argue that what he's advocating is bad on a utilitarian level, but he would disagree, and his advocacy of a certain Trust philosophy doesn't by itself mean that he's an untrustworthy person. DT selection is meant to be affected by user lists, and it is totally legitimate to try to honestly convince other (real) people to use a list more in-line with your views.
 
I'm not going to blacklist people from DT selection due to not following my views, since a big point of this new system is to get me less involved, but if a culture somewhat compatible with my views does not eventually develop, then I will consider this more freeform DT selection to be a failure, and I'll probably get rid of it in favor of enforcing custom trust lists.



Now for this month's DT construction:

Old:
Code:
theymos
dooglus
gmaxwell
OgNasty
SebastianJu
qwk
Vod
mprep
Cyrus
monkeynuts
Welsh
ibminer
TMAN
Lauda
TookDk
Mitchell
vizique
Blazed
yogg
greenplastic
hilariousandco
EcuaMobi
Lesbian Cow
cryptodevil
suchmoon
achow101
owlcatz
JohnUser
minerjones
tmfp
BitcoinPenny
yahoo62278
zazarb
LoyceV
actmyname
The Pharmacist
DarkStar_
TheFuzzStone
Jet Cash
marlboroza
Lafu
Hhampuz
xtraelv
krogothmanhattan
Halab
iasenko
coinlocket$
asche
Coolcryptovator
ICOEthics
New:
Code:
theymos
HostFat
gmaxwell
TECSHARE
phantastisch
OgNasty
SebastianJu
qwk
Vod
mprep
Dabs
Cyrus
monkeynuts
Welsh
TMAN
Lauda
Mitchell
vizique
Blazed
yogg
TheNewAnon135246
greenplastic
hilariousandco
EcuaMobi
Lesbian Cow
cryptodevil
suchmoon
achow101
owlcatz
JohnUser
sapta
tmfp
BitcoinPenny
yahoo62278
zazarb
bill gator
LoyceV
actmyname
WhiteManWhite
The Pharmacist
LeGaulois
DarkStar_
TheFuzzStone
Jet Cash
marlboroza
Lafu
Gunthar
Hhampuz
xtraelv
krogothmanhattan
Halab
theyoungmillionaire
o_e_l_e_o
iasenko
coinlocket$
asche
Alex_Sr
taikuri13
Coolcryptovator
ICOEthics

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asche
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February 05, 2019, 07:01:39 PM
 #1105

In particular, in my view:
 - Giving negative trust for being an annoying poster is inappropriate, since this has nothing to do with their trustworthiness. If they're disrupting discussion or never adding anything, then that's something for moderators to deal with, and you should report their posts and/or complain in Meta about it.
 - Giving negative trust for merit trading and deceptive alt-account use may be appropriate, but you should use a light touch so that people don't feel paranoid.
 - You should be willing to forgive past mistakes if the person seems unlikely to do it again.
 - It is absolutely not appropriate to give someone negative trust because you disagree with them. I'm disappointed in the reaction to this post. Although H8bussesNbicycles is perhaps not particularly trustworthy for other reasons, the reasons many people gave for neg-trusting him are inappropriate. You can argue that what he's advocating is bad on a utilitarian level, but he would disagree, and his advocacy of a certain Trust philosophy doesn't by itself mean that he's an untrustworthy person. DT selection is meant to be affected by user lists, and it is totally legitimate to try to honestly convince other (real) people to use a list more in-line with your views.
 

Thank you for your input.

Couldn't agree more on the forgiving point as I had the chance to benefit from it myself.

I don't know the specifics of H8busses, but he called me a sock puppet of Lauda if I recall, and I didn't understand the reason. Not a reason to tag him.
However if he tried to actually "game" the system to his advantage (not saying he did) should THAT be tagged?

With gaming the system I mean influencing DT list for his own sake or agenda and not for legitimate reasons. See Thule et al.


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iMOONTRADEi





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suchmoon
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February 05, 2019, 07:05:01 PM
 #1106

HostFat
TECSHARE
zazarb
TheFuzzStone

Are currently excluded. OgNasty is back in. A dozen or so new faces.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;dt

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February 05, 2019, 07:06:50 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1), actmyname (1)
 #1107

However if he tried to actually "game" the system to his advantage (not saying he did) should THAT be tagged?

With gaming the system I mean influencing DT list for his own sake or agenda and not for legitimate reasons. See Thule et al.

If the "gaming" takes the form of strategically sending a lot of merit, creating sockuppets, and stuff like that, then no. That sort of gaming might get me to blacklist people, in fact. But if it looks more like politics, then that's OK, and that's what H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like to me.

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
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February 05, 2019, 07:11:31 PM
 #1108

However if he tried to actually "game" the system to his advantage (not saying he did) should THAT be tagged?

With gaming the system I mean influencing DT list for his own sake or agenda and not for legitimate reasons. See Thule et al.

If the "gaming" takes the form of strategically sending a lot of merit, creating sockuppets, and stuff like that, then no. That sort of gaming might get me to blacklist people, in fact. But if it looks more like politics, then that's OK, and that's what H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like to me.

Is stingers still a merit source? Sending merits to pad H8's gang to 10 merits so that they would have votes. Not sure if that counts as "strategic".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5103988.msg49590110#msg49590110

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February 05, 2019, 07:17:07 PM
 #1109

In particular, in my view:
 <snip>
Just wanted to thank you for giving some guidance as far as feedback-giving goes.  What I get from your input is that trust feedback really should be about trust, but we've all got different standards on that.  TECSHARE wants trust to be solely about documented trades and such, whereas I tend to not trust account sellers/buyers.  The message I'm taking from this is that you don't approve of leaving negs for differences of opinion or politics, but I'm wondering whether you specifically disapprove of account dealers being tagged--not necessarily your opinion on the matter, but whether you'd consider that an inappropriate use of the trust system.

It's not a moderator issue since there's no rule for it, and it harms the forum overall so I'd argue that DT ought to be able to tag them.

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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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February 05, 2019, 07:23:05 PM
 #1110

However if he tried to actually "game" the system to his advantage (not saying he did) should THAT be tagged?

With gaming the system I mean influencing DT list for his own sake or agenda and not for legitimate reasons. See Thule et al.

If the "gaming" takes the form of strategically sending a lot of merit, creating sockuppets, and stuff like that, then no. That sort of gaming might get me to blacklist people, in fact. But if it looks more like politics, then that's OK, and that's what H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like to me.

I might not understand when self-moderated threads are appropriate.  

I have no problem with your (theymos) conclusion that "H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like [politics] to me", but isn't there a bit of a problem with the self-moderation aspect of certain kinds of threads, especially when dealing with seemingly meta issues?  

For example, I had 6 posts deleted from that thread so of course, now I don't even attempt to participate or pay attention to postings in that particular thread, since I could not even contribute if I wanted to, except if I were to exclude Lauda from my trust list, then they might allow my posts, and I thought that my posts were innocuous, even though obviously the contents of my posts likely distracted from the message that they want to promote in that thread and spread through the forum if they are able, inaccurate as some other members might find such thread messages to be.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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February 05, 2019, 07:27:13 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2019, 07:41:40 PM by Thule
 #1111

However if he tried to actually "game" the system to his advantage (not saying he did) should THAT be tagged?

With gaming the system I mean influencing DT list for his own sake or agenda and not for legitimate reasons. See Thule et al.

If the "gaming" takes the form of strategically sending a lot of merit, creating sockuppets, and stuff like that, then no. That sort of gaming might get me to blacklist people, in fact. But if it looks more like politics, then that's OK, and that's what H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like to me.

Is stingers still a merit source? Sending merits to pad H8's gang to 10 merits so that they would have votes. Not sure if that counts as "strategic".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5103988.msg49590110#msg49590110


Theymos gave already the answer its legit if it comes from free will of real users.
Stinger has posted that he have been abused in the past in his opinion and wishes changes.To achieve changes some people need to get voted up.If sending Merit to people you wish to move up would be forbidden how do you ever wanna implement a communities DT list when majority of merit is being hold by a very small group.


However if he tried to actually "game" the system to his advantage (not saying he did) should THAT be tagged?

With gaming the system I mean influencing DT list for his own sake or agenda and not for legitimate reasons. See Thule et al.

If the "gaming" takes the form of strategically sending a lot of merit, creating sockuppets, and stuff like that, then no. That sort of gaming might get me to blacklist people, in fact. But if it looks more like politics, then that's OK, and that's what H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like to me.

I might not understand when self-moderation is appropriate.  

I have no problem with your (theymos) conclusion that "H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like [politics] to me", but isn't there a bit of a problem with the self-moderation aspect of certain kinds of threads, especially when dealing with seemingly meta issues?  

For example, I had 6 posts deleted from that thread (so of course, now I don't even attempt to participate or pay attention, since I could not even contribute if I wanted to, except if I were to exclude Lauda from my trust list, then they might allow my posts), and I thought that my posts were innocuous, even though obviously the contents of my posts distracted from the message that they want to promote in that thread (inaccurate as some other members might find such thread messages).

Nobody would delete your post if you would have Lauda in your trust list.
Posts have been deleted which were bashing the action OP started.


You just need to look at my trust feedback.

Having 5 negative feedbacks for the try to support people into DT list which will lead execute the DT responsibility like me and hopefully the majority of forum members see.
If we wouldn't be allowed to support our view what sense would it make that theymos created a decentralised voting system.
Current DT members have already the advantage of high merits and sticking togther.

Here the 5 people who tagged me for that thread

Timelord2067: Conspiring to manipulate DT for a personal vendetta at the risk of leaving other users vulnerable to known scammers.
yogg: Conspiring to manipulate DT for a personal vendetta at the risk of leaving other users vulnerable to known scammers.
TMAN: Conspiring to manipulate DT for a personal vendetta at the risk of leaving other users vulnerable to known scammers.
Foxpup: Conspiring to manipulate DT for a personal vendetta at the risk of leaving other users vulnerable to known scammers.
asche: Complete moron. Basically defends anyone speaking up against any DT member hoping to fuel his attempt to actually manipulate the system.
This user has his own agenda. Do not trust him.


Quote
- You should be willing to forgive past mistakes if the person seems unlikely to do it again.

TMAN gave me a year a false negative tagg being the alt of Quickseller.I PM'ed him a few days ago asking him to remove the false negative tagg since after a year he should clearly see i have no relation to quickseller and also offered to remove my negative tagg for tagging with a false reason.
His response was an additional negative tagg.

Thats the kind of actions which is frustrating the community.And TMAN even laughing and making jokes he gave me a negative tagg with the explanation that i might be an alt of Quickseller.

So he has completly no evidence at all.I guess everyone can clearly see there is no relationship and when getting asked to remove the false tagg he adds just for his vendetta on me a second one claiming i run a vendetta on all DT.
Thats just a lie but you don't belive i'm going to support a DT member like TMAN who proofed his negative actions in the past ?

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February 05, 2019, 07:35:22 PM
 #1112

Theymos gave already the answer its legit if it comes from free will of real users.
Stinger has posted that he have been abused in the past in his opinion and wishes changes.To achieve changes some people need to get voted up.If sending Merit to people you wish to move up would be forbidden how do you ever wanna implement a communities DT list when majority of merit is being hold by a very small group.

All this doesn't change that you should merit post that are actually worth it and not send merit solely for the purpose of gaming the system.

It would still be merit abuse.


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iMOONTRADEi





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February 05, 2019, 07:35:57 PM
Merited by Foxpup (4), bones261 (2), LoyceV (2), mikeywith (2)
 #1113

Diff between new and previous DT1. No comment means the status hasn't changed.

theymos
dooglus - removed, perhaps due to inactivity
HostFat - added but excluded, vote balance is -5
gmaxwell
TECSHARE - added but excluded, vote balance is -2
phantastisch - added
OgNasty - no longer excluded, vote balance is 0
SebastianJu
qwk
Vod
mprep
Dabs - added
Cyrus
monkeynuts
Welsh
ibminer - removed, perhaps due to not having a trust list
TMAN
Lauda
TookDk - removed, perhaps due to inactivity
Mitchell
vizique
Blazed
yogg
TheNewAnon135246 - added
greenplastic
hilariousandco
EcuaMobi
Lesbian Cow
cryptodevil
suchmoon
achow101
owlcatz
JohnUser
minerjones - removed, perhaps due to not having a trust list
sapta - added
tmfp
BitcoinPenny
yahoo62278
zazarb - still excluded, vote balance is -3
bill gator - added
LoyceV
actmyname
WhiteManWhite - added
The Pharmacist
LeGaulois - added
DarkStar_
TheFuzzStone - still excluded, vote balance is -3
Jet Cash
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Lafu
Gunthar - added
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xtraelv
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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February 05, 2019, 07:36:06 PM
 #1114

However if he tried to actually "game" the system to his advantage (not saying he did) should THAT be tagged?

With gaming the system I mean influencing DT list for his own sake or agenda and not for legitimate reasons. See Thule et al.

If the "gaming" takes the form of strategically sending a lot of merit, creating sockuppets, and stuff like that, then no. That sort of gaming might get me to blacklist people, in fact. But if it looks more like politics, then that's OK, and that's what H8bussesNbicycles's thread looks like to me.

Is stingers still a merit source? Sending merits to pad H8's gang to 10 merits so that they would have votes. Not sure if that counts as "strategic".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5103988.msg49590110#msg49590110


Theymos gave already the answer its legit if it comes from free will of real users.
Stinger has posted that he have been abused in the past in his opinion and wishes changes.To achieve changes some people need to get voted up.If sending Merit to people you wish to move up would be forbidden how do you ever wanna implement a communities DT list when majority of merit is being hold by a very small group.

Theoretically speaking:  Merit sources have some different integrity rules than regular members, especially in the arena of quid pro quo, which could also be a problem is they are using their source merits for personal agendas (which in that regard could be considered a kind of selling, even if not direct).  Factually speaking:  I know very little about Stinger, except what was described in these recent posts, so I, personally, would not have enough information to conclude that any kind of merit source abuse would have been taking place, specifically in regards to that situation.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
asche
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February 05, 2019, 07:37:27 PM
 #1115

phantastisch - added

- is also german mod, but is AWOL for over 3 months if I recall.

Excluding him might be a good idea.

My bad I'm stupid. You can't become DT1 if you are inactive.

Happy that he is back.


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LoyceV
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February 05, 2019, 07:42:25 PM
 #1116

phantastisch - added
- is also german mod, but is AWOL for over 3 months if I recall.
Inactive users don't qualify for DT1:
- You must have been online sometime within the last 3 days.

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February 05, 2019, 07:42:37 PM
 #1117

phantastisch - added
- is also german mod, but is AWOL for over 3 months if I recall.
He's back.
Thats probably also the reason why he's been added now.
Most likely he was "qualified" before, but not included due to inactivity.

Yeah, well... I'm gonna go build my own blockchain, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the blockchain!
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MY RED TRUST LEFT BY SCUMBAGS - READ MY SIG


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February 05, 2019, 07:42:50 PM
 #1118

Theymos gave already the answer its legit if it comes from free will of real users.
Stinger has posted that he have been abused in the past in his opinion and wishes changes.To achieve changes some people need to get voted up.If sending Merit to people you wish to move up would be forbidden how do you ever wanna implement a communities DT list when majority of merit is being hold by a very small group.

All this doesn't change that you should merit post that are actually worth it and not send merit solely for the purpose of gaming the system.

It would still be merit abuse.


You want me to show you where current DT members got their merit from ?

Maybe you should start reading how they defended their merit from BS posts.

Quote
Theoretically speaking:  Merit sources have some different integrity rules than regular members, especially in the arena of quid pro quo, which could also be a problem is they are using their source merits for personal agendas (which in that regard could be considered a kind of selling, even if not direct).  Factually speaking:  I know very little about Stinger, except what was described in these recent posts, so I, personally, would not have enough information to conclude that any kind of merit source abuse would have been taking place, specifically in regards to that situation.

If he thinks a movement on BCT is a good idea which in his opinion brings improvement to BCT where is the problem to give for that action merits ?
You are not forced to only give merits for quality posts but also actions.

asche
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February 05, 2019, 07:43:45 PM
 #1119

phantastisch - added
- is also german mod, but is AWOL for over 3 months if I recall.
He's back.
Thats probably also the reason why he's been added now.
Most likely he was "qualified" before, but not included due to inactivity.

Was just editing my post, but you were faster.

Obviously he couldn't have become DT1 while being inactive. Let's just be happy that he is back Smiley


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asche
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February 05, 2019, 07:44:25 PM
 #1120

You want me to show you where current DT members got their merit from ?

Maybe you should start reading how they defended their merit from BS posts.

Actually I would be curious if you have some good read for me  Grin

Edit: Am I included in you "current DT"?


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