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Author Topic: [ANN] Spondoolies-Tech - carrier grade, data center ready mining rigs  (Read 1256101 times)
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Guy Corem
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June 17, 2014, 07:00:36 PM
 #3321

Musing on 20, 28 and 16:

http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/blogs/news/14515457-20-nm-28-nm-and-16ff

My point, it was a publicity stunt used to capture laymen. Succeeded big time to them.

Sad.

20 nm make sense to only one player in this market. Enough said.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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Creating a Bitcoin client that fully implements the network protocol is extremely difficult. Bitcoin Core and some of its derivatives are the only known safe implementations of full nodes. Some other projects attempt to compete, but it is not recommended to use such software for anything serious. (Lightweight clients like Electrum and Bither are OK.)
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June 17, 2014, 07:03:29 PM
 #3322

I am guessing my 75 cents a gh was a good choice when Spondoolies does deliver.

I have to say, even according to my pessimistic estimations I think that that will probably be a good deal.

Can't say the same about $0.85/gh in september.
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June 17, 2014, 07:09:30 PM
 #3323

I am guessing my 75 cents a gh was a good choice when Spondoolies does deliver.

I have to say, even according to my pessimistic estimations I think that that will probably be a good deal.

Can't say the same about $0.85/gh in september.


$0.85/gh in September... maybe.

If you are keen to get into it and stay in then I think the SP30 is a very solid choice you would really have to be looking to buy in bulk and get a bigger reduction. Spondoolies are not shy. Get a GB together... hmmm maybe?

The problem I have is I am not mining bitcoin lol. Grin

I'm betting long on another coin.

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June 17, 2014, 07:33:27 PM
 #3324

Spondoolies

Can you provide some more information on the hosting arrangements for the SP30 group buy, still sat on the email asking if I want it shipped or hosted, was going to email you but figured some other people might be in the same position so a public answer would be better.

It says 6 month minimum, how is this going to be charged. All 6 months in advance, 1 month in advance, 1 month in arrears.

Will we have remote access to the miners, my current SP10's are hosted with you and the biggest drawback is not having access (though support is very quick)

TIA

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 07:40:01 PM
 #3325

Spondoolies

Can you provide some more information on the hosting arrangements for the SP30 group buy, still sat on the email asking if I want it shipped or hosted, was going to email you but figured some other people might be in the same position so a public answer would be better.

It says 6 month minimum, how is this going to be charged. All 6 months in advance, 1 month in advance, 1 month in arrears.

Will we have remote access to the miners, my current SP10's are hosted with you and the biggest drawback is not having access (though support is very quick)

TIA

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.

Can September orders get in on this arrangements or only GB?
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June 17, 2014, 07:42:16 PM
 #3326

This is the DC: http://serverfarmrealty.com/data-centers/titan/

For bulk customers, assuming they'll have space and cooling capacity, we'll do an intro with the DC owner.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 07:45:55 PM
 #3327

Spondoolies

Can you provide some more information on the hosting arrangements for the SP30 group buy, still sat on the email asking if I want it shipped or hosted, was going to email you but figured some other people might be in the same position so a public answer would be better.

It says 6 month minimum, how is this going to be charged. All 6 months in advance, 1 month in advance, 1 month in arrears.

Will we have remote access to the miners, my current SP10's are hosted with you and the biggest drawback is not having access (though support is very quick)

TIA

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.

Can September orders get in on this arrangements or only GB?

Unfortunately not.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 07:48:35 PM
 #3328


I'm betting long on another coin.

which coin, if you don't mind me asking?
I'm currently invested in others too.
PM if preferable

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
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June 17, 2014, 07:49:21 PM
 #3329


I'm betting long on another coin.

which coin, if you don't mind me asking?
I'm currently invested in others too.
PM if preferable

Won't say...

Wouldn't want anyone to die with me on this journey.

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June 17, 2014, 07:52:24 PM
 #3330

Spondoolies

Can you provide some more information on the hosting arrangements for the SP30 group buy, still sat on the email asking if I want it shipped or hosted, was going to email you but figured some other people might be in the same position so a public answer would be better.

It says 6 month minimum, how is this going to be charged. All 6 months in advance, 1 month in advance, 1 month in arrears.

Will we have remote access to the miners, my current SP10's are hosted with you and the biggest drawback is not having access (though support is very quick)

TIA

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.

In the group buy thread you mention about a "cloud control panel to allow full access to miner web GUI" ... is that off the table ?

Here is the quote from the other thread:

WA State DC hosting deal for SP30:

100$ - one time installation fee (covering work, PDU cable, Ethernet cable, Rack-Mounting "ears")
290$ per month for 6 months commitment
One month deposit is needed

Backed up by UPS and generator.  ASHREA environmental SLA.

Per the group sale deal, first month (290$) or free shipping to your chosen destination is included.

If you choose to be included in this hosting deal, we'll charge you for shipping.
Assuming enough customers will choose to host, we'll ship bulk and reduce shipping costs. We don't have the exact figure yet.

We're working on cloud control panel that will allow full access to the miner web GUI.

BTC donations always welcome: 1JakeTriwbahMYp1rSfJbTn7Afd1w62p2q
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June 17, 2014, 07:53:49 PM
 #3331

This is the DC: http://serverfarmrealty.com/data-centers/titan/

For bulk customers, assuming they'll have space and cooling capacity, we'll do an intro with the DC owner.

Titan? Impressive descriptions Wink
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June 17, 2014, 07:54:01 PM
 #3332


In the group buy thread you mention about a "cloud control panel to allow full access to miner web GUI" ... is that off the table ?


Indeed, it's off the table. Zvisha addressed it in the past.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 08:46:19 PM
 #3333

Spondoolies

Can you provide some more information on the hosting arrangements for the SP30 group buy, still sat on the email asking if I want it shipped or hosted, was going to email you but figured some other people might be in the same position so a public answer would be better.

It says 6 month minimum, how is this going to be charged. All 6 months in advance, 1 month in advance, 1 month in arrears.

Will we have remote access to the miners, my current SP10's are hosted with you and the biggest drawback is not having access (though support is very quick)

TIA

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.


The email said that hosting required a 6 month commitment, which would indicate to me that it required 6 months up front. What other commitment would there be for a company selling hosting to a bunch of geeks on the internet from all over the world?

You won't be required to pay all up front for the 6 months. The commitment would be that you agree and commit to pay for the next 6 months of hosting. I am sure that if you won't pay starting any month that won't be a problem because they still have your equipment and they will not release it to you until you pay up + maybe you will get blacklisted with them. That's how I see it at least. Things don't need to be complicated at all.

Looks like it is a pay in advance setup. With one month free as agreed in the Group buy. Not a bad thing, just helps clarify things a bit.

Mine at pools that pay transaction fees & don't mine empty blocks :: kanopool :: ckpool ::
:: Dalcore's Crypto Mining H/W Hosting Directory & Reputation ::
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June 17, 2014, 08:50:11 PM
 #3334

Spondoolies

Can you provide some more information on the hosting arrangements for the SP30 group buy, still sat on the email asking if I want it shipped or hosted, was going to email you but figured some other people might be in the same position so a public answer would be better.

It says 6 month minimum, how is this going to be charged. All 6 months in advance, 1 month in advance, 1 month in arrears.

Will we have remote access to the miners, my current SP10's are hosted with you and the biggest drawback is not having access (though support is very quick)

TIA

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.


The email said that hosting required a 6 month commitment, which would indicate to me that it required 6 months up front. What other commitment would there be for a company selling hosting to a bunch of geeks on the internet from all over the world?

You won't be required to pay all up front for the 6 months. The commitment would be that you agree and commit to pay for the next 6 months of hosting. I am sure that if you won't pay starting any month that won't be a problem because they still have your equipment and they will not release it to you until you pay up + maybe you will get blacklisted with them. That's how I see it at least. Things don't need to be complicated at all.

Looks like it is a pay in advance setup. With one month free as agreed in the Group buy. Not a bad thing, just helps clarify things a bit.

Correct.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 09:03:39 PM
 #3335

Looks like it is a pay in advance setup. With one month free as agreed in the Group buy. Not a bad thing, just helps clarify things a bit.

It seems that it's an advance payment. My statement was based on personal speculation.

H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
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June 17, 2014, 09:42:40 PM
 #3336

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.

Thanks for the update, shame about the remote access, will have to do some more pondering Tongue

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June 17, 2014, 10:03:34 PM
 #3337

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.

Thanks for the update, shame about the remote access, will have to do some more pondering Tongue


It's too much effort. 80% / 20% rule. Actually, 95% of our customers are content with configuration change by email.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 10:56:01 PM
Last edit: June 17, 2014, 11:11:07 PM by antirack
 #3338

But please do describe to me how you will be competing with (possibly immersion cooled) equipment with the best W/GH ratio and lowest energy prices on the planet (let´s say 5ct/kwh) by the end of 2014.
The immersion cooling is just about nearly pointless with Bitcoin mining. The only thing that its proponents bring to table are workarounds for lack of proper design and engineering. Immersion cooling with 3M engineered fluids only makes sense if there are real constraints on the cooled equipment: speed of light limitation, unusual complexity, high density, etc. None of that really matter for Bitcoin mining.

If your goal is low PUE then simply use typical evaporative cooling well known in chemical process engineering and refrigeration. Most of the required equipment is already available, all you'll need to do is bring a chemical/thermodynamic process engineer to the table with the PCB design engineer, who is already working for Spondoolies. Together they need to design a proper heat exchanger for the mining chips and the associated buck converters. I already asked Spondoolies if SP30 motherboard was designed for cutting into 15 smaller boards. Apparently not, probably because the PCB design engineer wasn't given this as a requirement. So they cut the heathsinks into 15 smaller pieces.

They need to conceptually invert that design: single large liquid heat exchanger and multitude of small PCBs hosting the hot chips is the way to go long term.

3M's profit margins on their immersion cooling fluids are so high, that they require scientific notation to fit in the spreadsheets. Just use common chilling/refrigeration equipment instead where the profit margins are in expressed in two digits.


We more or less agree with this analysis.

3M Novec surely could be cheaper, but what many people forget is that you only need a tiny little bit of it. You can cool 4kW of hardware with 200cc or 6.8oz of fluid if you want (that's what's tested, surely not the limit). That costs less than my usual double espresso per kW or less than a pizza for the complete 4kW. I would prefer reducing my hardware to a simple chips on boards any time over creating your a heat exchanger or my own buck regulators and put it in bulky boxes with cables.

It's simple, really. Every facility you build has a price tag and its own set of pro and cons. Usually we compare cooling, and only on the device level, but there is much more than that to consider (power, labor, manufacturing etc).

DataTank Immersion (3M Novec): <$0.65/W (PUE 1.01) -> $650/kW
Mineral Oil Cooling: $3.14/W (PUE 1.15)
Economizer (evaporative): $7/W (PUE 1.08) -> FB $750/kW
Water Cooling: $10/W (PUE 1.10)
Cheap air cooling: $11/W (PUE 1.3-1.5? HK is PUE 2.2!)

To put this in perspective, Titan has a PUE of 1.25 (25% of electricity go to cooling).

For you as hardware manufacturer, DataTank/Novec Immersion (<$0.65/W) has further advantages on the mining level:
- Includes power supplies, networking, everything required to start mining
- You don't need enclosures, heatsinks, assembly work, power supplies, all that
- I estimate that will make a 20% to 50% difference on manufacturing costs of your mining hardware
- You can ship your next hardware to the same customer in the same cheap form factor
- One single person can upgrade a whole container farm within hours
  (ie. vs. how many palettes full of heavy 2U boxes that need to go into dozens and dozens of racks)

Facebook prides itself for paying $7500/kW ($210M total) for their Prineville data center in Oregon (it's a 28MW facility). It took them years to build, they have created thousands of jobs, and they evaporate 7 liters of water per kilowatt per day.

Ghetto Mining? Could we consider KNC as ghetto style considering it's scale?  Rest assured it's probably not far from Facebook's pricing, after all the KNC site was built by the same people that built Facebook's place (The Node Pole).

Here's some more info and an analysis of the KNC and other mines:
https://www.googledrive.com/host/0ByWHHc0u_thNMWtQeDNiT2duU0E/Analysis_of_Large-Scale_Bitcoin_Mining_Operations.pdf

Naturally, businesses need to make money, so we are all getting charged what it costs plus some more. As a matter of fact, annual hosting costs are now exceeding the price of Bitcoin mining gear itself. Just check the hosting thread and do some maths. And on top of that, you are paying for enclusures, shipping, labour, heatsinks, power supplies, all that. Some of it repeatedly if you are a long term miner.


Edit: if you are wondering, some of the above data is from here:
http://www.grcooling.com/data-center-cost-savings/
http://blog.schneider-electric.com/datacenter/2012/02/16/how-much-should-a-modular-data-center-cost/
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June 17, 2014, 11:10:43 PM
 #3339

3M Novec surely could be cheaper, but what many people forget is that you only need a tiny little bit of it. You can cool 4kW of hardware with 200cc or 6.8oz of fluid if you want (that's what's tested, surely not the limit). That costs less than my usual double espresso per kW or less than a pizza for the complete 4kW. I would prefer reducing my hardware to a simple chips on boards any time over creating your a heat exchanger or my own buck regulators and put it in bulky boxes with cables.

It's simple, really. Every facility you build has a price tag and its own set of pro and cons. Usually we compare cooling, and only on the device level, but there is much more than that to consider (power, labor, manufacturing etc).

DataTank Immersion (3M Novec): <$0.65/W (PUE 1.01) -> $650/kW
Mineral Oil Cooling: $3.14/W (PUE 1.15)
Economizer (evaporative): $7/W (PUE 1.08) -> FB $750/kW
Water Cooling: $10/W (PUE 1.10)
Cheap air cooling: $11/W (PUE 1.3-1.5? HK is PUE 2.2!)

For you as hardware manufacturer, DataTank/Novec Immersion (<$0.65/W) has further advantages on the mining level:
- Includes power supplies, networking, everything required to start mining
- You don't need enclosures, heatsinks, assembly work, power supplies, all that
- I estimate that will make a 20% to 50% difference on manufacturing costs of your mining hardware
- You can ship your next hardware to the same customer in the same cheap form factor
- One single person can upgrade a whole container farm within hours
  (ie. vs. how many palettes full of heavy 2U boxes that need to go into dozens and dozens of racks)

Facebook prides itself for paying $7500/kW ($210M total) for their Prineville data center in Oregon (it's a 28MW facility). It took them years to build, they have created thousands of jobs, and they evaporate 7 liters of water per kilowatt per day.

Ghetto Mining? Could we consider KNC as ghetto style considering it's scale?  Rest assured it's probably not far from Facebook's pricing, after all the KNC site was built by the same people that built Facebook's place (The Node Pole).

Here's some more info and an analysis of the KNC and other mines:
https://www.googledrive.com/host/0ByWHHc0u_thNMWtQeDNiT2duU0E/Analysis_of_Large-Scale_Bitcoin_Mining_Operations.pdf

Naturally, businesses need to make money, so we are all getting charged what it costs plus some more.



Edit: if you are wondering, some of the above data is from here:
http://www.grcooling.com/data-center-cost-savings/
http://blog.schneider-electric.com/datacenter/2012/02/16/how-much-should-a-modular-data-center-cost/

Dude, I'm not forgetting anything. All I'm saying is mount the Bitcoin mining chips (on small PCBs) directly onto your secondary cooling loop. There are no patents involved in that and exactly zero has to be paid to 3M or any other "engineered fluid" vendor.

But it would also zero your commissions, so I fully understand why you keep pretending that you can't understand the difference. Bitcoin mining is not a "data center". It is an "embarrassingly parallelizable" problem where speed-of-light or any similar limitation do not apply.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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June 17, 2014, 11:34:34 PM
 #3340

All I'm saying is mount the Bitcoin mining chips (on small PCBs) directly onto your secondary cooling loop.

Secondary cooling loop filled with what?

Rest assured that there is no commission from 3M. Find a better/cheaper liquid and we'll use it Wink
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