Boxing Speculation, Odds and Predictions

[goinmerry]

You see no reason for referees using a headset inside the ring but when they do, that is something to really wonder why. There were just hypotheses about referees getting instructions from the top where they could just raise the hand of a fighter that obviously fated to win even before the fight started.

Maybe true, maybe not. We can't just associate that with a form of cheating as maybe, that serves another purpose. Although, who knows?

Generally, from judges to referees, there's really a chance to manipulate results especially if the fight turned out close.

Because of that, I remember the Bivol-Canelo bout where there are speculations that if the fight instead turned out close the whole time, judges can easily score more points for Canelo every round. This fight turned the underdog Bivol into a superstar overnight.

[Fredomago]

You see no reason for referees using a headset inside the ring but when they do, that is something to really wonder why. There were just hypotheses about referees getting instructions from the top where they could just raise the hand of a fighter that obviously fated to win even before the fight started.

Maybe true, maybe not. We can't just associate that with a form of cheating as maybe, that serves another purpose. Although, who knows?

Generally, from judges to referees, there's really a chance to manipulate results especially if the fight turned out close.

Because of that, I remember the Bivol-Canelo bout where there are speculations that if the fight instead turned out close the whole time, judges can easily score more points for Canelo every round. This fight turned the underdog Bivol into a superstar overnight.

Yeah right, it can be or it vice versa, we really can't conclude if they are using it in that said purpose, but manipulation in any sports are very possible, I think if there's money involve both judges and refs will take that risk, the amount of profits that they will be getting is not the same with how much they will get in a regular fight.

We all know what they are risking, and for sure the offer is really enticing that they are willing to risk their job and their names
in doing it for the sake of the money that they will be earning after the fight/game.

[cryptomaniac_xxx]

You see no reason for referees using a headset inside the ring but when they do, that is something to really wonder why. There were just hypotheses about referees getting instructions from the top where they could just raise the hand of a fighter that obviously fated to win even before the fight started.

Maybe true, maybe not. We can't just associate that with a form of cheating as maybe, that serves another purpose. Although, who knows?

Generally, from judges to referees, there's really a chance to manipulate results especially if the fight turned out close.

Because of that, I remember the Bivol-Canelo bout where there are speculations that if the fight instead turned out close the whole time, judges can easily score more points for Canelo every round. This fight turned the underdog Bivol into a superstar overnight.

I think in the Bivol vs Canelo, everything was wrong in the beginning, but the judges can't do anything to reward Canelo the win so they make it as close as possible. But we have seen the public making a uproar about the scoring, and who knows, if Bivol didn't dominate the way he did, maybe he could lose by 1 point in that fight and it could be a clear day highway robbery for Bivol. Good thing is that it didn't happen because it will be worst for the judges and Canelo Alvarez reputation. Sometimes its very clear if there is a biased based on the score by those judges.

[LUCKMCFLY]

Speaking of Casimero, the decision was turn over no contest to knockout by the KBM (Korea Boxing Member's Commission).

Source: https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/sports/othersports/855186/casimero-vs-akaho-result-overturned-to-knockout/story/

Not sure though how will this affect those who bet on Casimero winning by knockout, will casino's also turn over their decision and give the winnings to the bettors? I'm asking this because this is the first time that I see this happening for a a long time.

Thank you for the update bro.
I was expecting that to happen but I didn't know the association will be that fast to investigate and conclude the winner of that fight.
It was too obvious, we all know who won that game.
Now, this will give a push for Casimero for his next battle. Will it be Inoue? If he will stay and try to defend his title then there's a chance they will meet.
Or does Casimero need to fight one more boxer to rank up and reach him?

Maybe the Korean boxing commission was really ashamed on what they see on the Japanese fighter and that's why a swift investigation and reversal of the decision. And Akaho admitted that it he was not really hit behind his head so that admission is enough for them to overturn.

I doubt that Casimero will get Inoue, it seems though that Bob Arum is pushing for Naoya to get an immediate title shot against Fulton.

Although it might hurt those in line, but Top Rank is powerful promotion and could do that to the boxing organizations to request that fight immediately. And it's a good match as well, fans are going to be happy if this fight is going to be made once Inoue moves up.

And Akaho should pay for the embarrassment he gave towards the boxing community because he robbed Casimero's chance to win on that very same day and celebrate afterwards but Ryo Akaho is quite wise to retire first before he was given some penalties as he knew that his career was already over the moment he faked what happened in the ring.

As for Inoue, Bob Arum wasn't the one who is pushing Inoue to fight against Fulton. Truth is, it's the other way around because Arum wanted a much safer journey where his cow, Inoue, can test the waters first before facing Stephen Fulton. It's the WBO who made a huge move and gave Inoue a bantamweight super-champion title where he will have the option to go directly to the champion and waste no more time going through the ranks.

Hopefully, it will be Inoue's decision that will prevail in the end, not Arum. Because that's what Inoue wanted in his 122 lbs, against the champion in Stephen Fulton.

And maybe at the back of the mind of Arum, his cash cow could be damage, but as we have seen Inoue's rise to fame, he has improved a lot so it's going to be a good match and I think he has a equal chances against Fulton or any champion at 122 lbs.

So bring Inoue to fight any one them and chase for another greatness in the super bantamweight division.

Well the truth about Casimero and Inoue what happened to that? I know that Inoue is ignoring him, it seems that he didn't want him to be able to face him, it's as if he was avoiding it, I know that when Casimero was going to appeal and was challenging, he couldn't hold back and at once he sent the arrow to Inoue, I think That for that reason is that he will not want to fight him? Although I have seen that Inoue is a calm boxer, he does not mess with anyone and apart from that, he is someone who can give his best without saying much, perhaps his culture applies it totally to what sport is, he only does his job to the best of his ability possible without much talking.

If intentionally done and the wild social media attacks take place it will mean of their job, I see your point about that and maybe refs are already aware though we can't tell if they can take that risk, most probably if the money that is being offer is really enticing and can't be ignored, those refs can take it and deal with it.

Even they are risking their job, they are willing to take that to have an instant bulk of money in their paycheck.

With the nature of their job, I think they won't hesitate to take the offer behind the curtain as long as they see some advantage for them the offer. That's why even the Refs are paid to let the other fighter win, we cannot really see how they perform their tricks but we are certain it's there, especially when the fights are close and they find a way to give the other fighter an advantage like for example letting him hit his opponents in the back head which truly has huge damage if constantly done.

I think referee could be as corrupt as the organizations themselves, we have seen some bad calls to the point that it's clear to us that they are biased. Speaking of referee, what do you think of using reply in boxing?

In any case, it's really hard to really have a perfect fight without the referee and the judges messing it up, specially great fights like the Akaho vs Franco recently wherein it was really controversial scoring.

That has become a norm in boxing, don't expect too much, just enjoy the fight, and always believe that sometimes decisions of the refs are not in our favor. Even since in the past, there were allegations already that sports are corrupt, maybe because people are also betting that's why they fix the game to give the bookies huge money, or worst if the fighters themselves would try to sell the fight.

Now the focus of our discussion in this thread is based more than anything on the arbitration decisions, and it is something very important, but how can we go against what supposedly some very experts decide? how to do it? Yes, we are people who can also have many ways of thinking, sometimes we mix emotions with our favorite boxers, and sometimes we have a very impartial position for the decision, we as boxing fans sometimes do not understand referee decisions, but If we refuse to see, they are the ones who are authorized to make decisions, the most transparent thing they can do is show the scoring criteria and release them to the public so that nothing is questioned, that is what I can think of as a solution .

[mirakal]

You see no reason for referees using a headset inside the ring but when they do, that is something to really wonder why. There were just hypotheses about referees getting instructions from the top where they could just raise the hand of a fighter that obviously fated to win even before the fight started.

Maybe true, maybe not. We can't just associate that with a form of cheating as maybe, that serves another purpose. Although, who knows?

Generally, from judges to referees, there's really a chance to manipulate results especially if the fight turned out close.

Because of that, I remember the Bivol-Canelo bout where there are speculations that if the fight instead turned out close the whole time, judges can easily score more points for Canelo every round. This fight turned the underdog Bivol into a superstar overnight.

Referees wearing headset will really raise some suspicion to the public, even if they will have a valid reason for it, people and the respective camps will of course doubt as they don't know what's going on with the headset thing as they don't know what the referees are hearing. Anyway, are they using some kind of headset nowadays? I don't know that, if yes, then that shouldn't be allowed to prevent the referees from clouding their judgement.

[inthelongrun]

It didn't took long before the Philippines won a belt. But this was unexpected as most of the country are rooting for the likes of Casimero, Donaire and Magsayo to grab the nation's first belt this year. Melvin Jerusalem captured the WBO minimumweight belt earlier today in Osaka, Japan. Jerusalem landed a perfect thunderous straight right on now former champion Masataka Taniguchi's face who fell hard and was not able to recover.

[carlisle1]

You see no reason for referees using a headset inside the ring but when they do, that is something to really wonder why. There were just hypotheses about referees getting instructions from the top where they could just raise the hand of a fighter that obviously fated to win even before the fight started.

Maybe true, maybe not. We can't just associate that with a form of cheating as maybe, that serves another purpose. Although, who knows?

Generally, from judges to referees, there's really a chance to manipulate results especially if the fight turned out close.

Because of that, I remember the Bivol-Canelo bout where there are speculations that if the fight instead turned out close the whole time, judges can easily score more points for Canelo every round. This fight turned the underdog Bivol into a superstar overnight.

Referees wearing headset will really raise some suspicion to the public, even if they will have a valid reason for it, people and the respective camps will of course doubt as they don't know what's going on with the headset thing as they don't know what the referees are hearing. Anyway, are they using some kind of headset nowadays? I don't know that, if yes, then that shouldn't be allowed to prevent the referees from clouding their judgement.

If there's a doubt that may develop better not to allow refs to have that kind of headset, we can't tell what they are
hearing or what are the real purpose of those headsets.

It's better to not to have that kind of device while you are in the middle of the fight as doubt may develop if there's a problem
with fair judging.

Best to remove any possible ways to question any judgements.

[danherbias07]

We have a good card tomorrow guys.

Full schedule:
Jan. 7: Washington D.C. (Showtime PPV)
Gervonta Davis vs. Hector Luis Garcia, 12 rounds, lightweights

Jaron Ennis vs. Karen Chukhadzhian, 12 rounds, for the IBF interim welterweight title

Rashidi Ellis vs. Roiman Villa, 12 rounds, welterweights

Demetrius Andrade vs. Demond Nicholson, 10 rounds, super middleweights

Brandun Lee vs. Diego Gonzalo Luque, 8 rounds, junior welterweights

Vito Mielnicki Jr vs. Omar Rosales, 8 rounds, junior middleweights

Kyrone Davis vs. Cristian Fabian, 8 rounds, super middleweights

Travon Marshall vs. Shawn West, 8 rounds, junior middleweights

Keeshawn Williams vs. Gustavo David Vittori, 6 rounds, welterweights

Lamont Peterson vs. Michael Ogundo, 6 rounds, junior welterweights

Anthony Peterson vs. Raul Chirino, 6 rounds, junior welterweights

Mia Ellis vs. Karen Dulin, 4 rounds, women's lightweights

Jalil Major Hackett vs. Joel Guevara, 4 rounds, welterweights

https://www.espn.ph/boxing/story/_/id/12508267/boxing-schedule
I already fixed my beer on the fridge so I can relax on this day and bets are locked on.
Ennis as the winner in KO for the undercard and Davis also a KO for the main card. Both favorites and I sincerely doubt they will be defeated so I am sticking with them to finish this before the 9th round. My only defeat is if it goes beyond that or a decision will happen. I hope not.
I believe in the impossible but in my opinion, it's a high risk to bet for the underdogs this time.

[Baofeng]

^^ You might as well be interested in this fight,

Rashidi Ellis vs. Roiman Villa, 12 rounds, welterweights

During the press con, Ellis and Ennis has some heated arguments so it might be interesting to see if this two are going to face each other in the future although Ennis is looking for the big boys in the division specially Spence. But who knows, they already started trash talking and maybe if Ennis can't get a fight with Spence or Crawford then probably Ellis might be a good choice for him.

Demetrius Andrade vs. Demond Nicholson fight as well, Andrade is trying to get into the mix fighting the sweepstakes in Canelo so let's see. He has been opening his mouth and always talking trash against Alvarez whenever he can.

[lionheart78]

You see no reason for referees using a headset inside the ring but when they do, that is something to really wonder why. There were just hypotheses about referees getting instructions from the top where they could just raise the hand of a fighter that obviously fated to win even before the fight started.

If the money is worth I guess they can be morally negotiated if that is the right term.

There is a reason why the referee uses a headset.  It is for communication purposes such as when a boxer got knocked down, the counter will relay the counts through the headset, it is hard to listen in a cheering crowd  and I also believe it is used more than that but I do see the importance of a referee having a headset.  It is not because they had laid out a plan but I know it is necessary for communication between inside and outside the ring just like in my given example.

Referees wearing headset will really raise some suspicion to the public, even if they will have a valid reason for it, people and the respective camps will of course doubt as they don't know what's going on with the headset thing as they don't know what the referees are hearing. Anyway, are they using some kind of headset nowadays? I don't know that, if yes, then that shouldn't be allowed to prevent the referees from clouding their judgement.

If there's a doubt that may develop better not to allow refs to have that kind of headset, we can't tell what they are
hearing or what are the real purpose of those headsets.

It's better to not to have that kind of device while you are in the middle of the fight as doubt may develop if there's a problem
with fair judging.

Best to remove any possible ways to question any judgements.

There is a need for a head set, the count must be sync with the counter and it is provided by the headset.  Aside from that, there might be some crucial instruction that needed to implement such as telling the referee that he is so lapse sided and need more focus in officiating the fight or instructing the referee about the missed call fouls like low blows, elbows etc.  Or have an instruction to check the condition of the boxer and have it checked by the ring side physician when their cut is too deep to continue.

[TravelMug]

^^ You might as well be interested in this fight,

Rashidi Ellis vs. Roiman Villa, 12 rounds, welterweights

Yeah, saw the clip between Ennis and Ellis, how old is Ellis though, he seems to be talking about a fight that has been offered to him years ago, the fight that Manny did take as a comeback fight, against Lucas Matthysse. So I'm thinking why just now?

During the press con, Ellis and Ennis has some heated arguments so it might be interesting to see if this two are going to face each other in the future although Ennis is looking for the big boys in the division specially Spence. But who knows, they already started trash talking and maybe if Ennis can't get a fight with Spence or Crawford then probably Ellis might be a good choice for him.

Again we will see if Ellis is just pure talk or what. If he has been in the ring more than Ennis, then he needs to get back into his act and make a statement win.

Demetrius Andrade vs. Demond Nicholson fight as well, Andrade is trying to get into the mix fighting the sweepstakes in Canelo so let's see. He has been opening his mouth and always talking trash against Alvarez whenever he can.

Everyone is barking on Canelo, for me Andrade is way past his prime.

[mirakal]

Referees wearing headset will really raise some suspicion to the public, even if they will have a valid reason for it, people and the respective camps will of course doubt as they don't know what's going on with the headset thing as they don't know what the referees are hearing. Anyway, are they using some kind of headset nowadays? I don't know that, if yes, then that shouldn't be allowed to prevent the referees from clouding their judgement.

If there's a doubt that may develop better not to allow refs to have that kind of headset, we can't tell what they are
hearing or what are the real purpose of those headsets.

It's better to not to have that kind of device while you are in the middle of the fight as doubt may develop if there's a problem
with fair judging.

Best to remove any possible ways to question any judgements.

There is a need for a head set, the count must be sync with the counter and it is provided by the headset.  Aside from that, there might be some crucial instruction that needed to implement such as telling the referee that he is so lapse sided and need more focus in officiating the fight or instructing the referee about the missed call fouls like low blows, elbows etc.  Or have an instruction to check the condition of the boxer and have it checked by the ring side physician when their cut is too deep to continue.

But despite of these numerous needs of the referees to wear some form of headset, people are still not complacent by the fact because they don't know what's going on behind it. It's best give the respective camps some headwears too so that there won't be an anomaly and a suspicion won't be raised because they can also hear what's going on behind these headsets.

[Baofeng]

Referees wearing headset will really raise some suspicion to the public, even if they will have a valid reason for it, people and the respective camps will of course doubt as they don't know what's going on with the headset thing as they don't know what the referees are hearing. Anyway, are they using some kind of headset nowadays? I don't know that, if yes, then that shouldn't be allowed to prevent the referees from clouding their judgement.

If there's a doubt that may develop better not to allow refs to have that kind of headset, we can't tell what they are
hearing or what are the real purpose of those headsets.

It's better to not to have that kind of device while you are in the middle of the fight as doubt may develop if there's a problem
with fair judging.

Best to remove any possible ways to question any judgements.

There is a need for a head set, the count must be sync with the counter and it is provided by the headset.  Aside from that, there might be some crucial instruction that needed to implement such as telling the referee that he is so lapse sided and need more focus in officiating the fight or instructing the referee about the missed call fouls like low blows, elbows etc.  Or have an instruction to check the condition of the boxer and have it checked by the ring side physician when their cut is too deep to continue.

But despite of these numerous needs of the referees to wear some form of headset, people are still not complacent by the fact because they don't know what's going on behind it. It's best give the respective camps some headwears too so that there won't be an anomaly and a suspicion won't be raised because they can also hear what's going on behind these headsets.

If I'm not mistaken, the count is in sync with the time keeper and before the referee starts his count, he will confirm it first where the count is before he officially starts the count, so I don't think the referee needs to wear something.

I guess maybe in the amateur ranks this could be effective, but in pro I don't think this kind of headwears will be helpful. On the contrary, I would agree that it will just raise more suspicions that anything else.

[chaser15]

But despite of these numerous needs of the referees to wear some form of headset, people are still not complacent by the fact because they don't know what's going on behind it. It's best give the respective camps some headwears too so that there won't be an anomaly and a suspicion won't be raised because they can also hear what's going on behind these headsets.

Speaking of these headset concerns, I think that was just for communicating with the panel.

In the panel, I truly believed that not all personnel there will likely participate in the ongoing manipulation if there's any. If they will do some shitting with the results and speak that to the referee, they will likely be heard by those people around them.

Besides, the announcement of the winner won't be decided by the referees. They will just raise the hands of the winner. The manipulation will be at the hands of the judges and no need for them to speak with the referees thru headsets.

[Baofeng]

Unfortunate event as the highly anticipated match between Stanionis and Vergil Ortiz Jr. will not happen per schedule date of March 18 due to Eimantas Stanionis will have a appendectomy surgery.

One of the most anticipated fights on the boxing calendar has been hit with a delay.

WBA ‘Regular’ welterweight titlist Eimantas Stanionis was hospitalized and forced to undergo appendectomy surgery on Friday, thus postponing his planned title defense versus mandatory challenger Vergil Ortiz Jr.

https://www.boxingscene.com/eimantas-stanionis-forced-go-emergency-appendectomy-surgery-vergil-ortiz-fight-postponed--171656

So this is another setback since Stanionis is the WBA regular champion, and possible the winner of this fight could be the mandatory belt for the WBA Welterweight (super) held by Spence.

Hopefully once the surgery is done and totally healed, this two will still face each other in the future, both undefeated boxers and in their prime and as I have said, could have a shot against the top dog right now, in Errol Spence.

[blockman]

But despite of these numerous needs of the referees to wear some form of headset, people are still not complacent by the fact because they don't know what's going on behind it. It's best give the respective camps some headwears too so that there won't be an anomaly and a suspicion won't be raised because they can also hear what's going on behind these headsets.

Speaking of these headset concerns, I think that was just for communicating with the panel.

In the panel, I truly believed that not all personnel there will likely participate in the ongoing manipulation if there's any. If they will do some shitting with the results and speak that to the referee, they will likely be heard by those people around them.

Besides, the announcement of the winner won't be decided by the referees. They will just raise the hands of the winner. The manipulation will be at the hands of the judges and no need for them to speak with the referees thru headsets.

Too many conspiracies as for these headsets, people are forgetting that it will still be visible on who is clearly going to be the winner of a match. I agree that it could just be for communication and you are right that it is still the judges that will give points unless there is a clear KO or TKO for which is visible to everyone ans not just for the ref.

[TravelMug]

Unfortunate event as the highly anticipated match between Stanionis and Vergil Ortiz Jr. will not happen per schedule date of March 18 due to Eimantas Stanionis will have a appendectomy surgery.

One of the most anticipated fights on the boxing calendar has been hit with a delay.

WBA ‘Regular’ welterweight titlist Eimantas Stanionis was hospitalized and forced to undergo appendectomy surgery on Friday, thus postponing his planned title defense versus mandatory challenger Vergil Ortiz Jr.

https://www.boxingscene.com/eimantas-stanionis-forced-go-emergency-appendectomy-surgery-vergil-ortiz-fight-postponed--171656

So this is another setback since Stanionis is the WBA regular champion, and possible the winner of this fight could be the mandatory belt for the WBA Welterweight (super) held by Spence.

Hopefully once the surgery is done and totally healed, this two will still face each other in the future, both undefeated boxers and in their prime and as I have said, could have a shot against the top dog right now, in Errol Spence.

This is bad news indeed, as there are a lot of eliminators in the 147 lbs since Spence has the 3 belts for this weight division. In any case though, it might extend Spence reign and probably the won't be force to give up his WBA super belt because obviously he can't defend it to his mandatory.

While there is looming fight for him this April as the name Keith Thurman might be his next fight.

And then we also have Ennis as well fighting for the interim belt in IBF as the Davis-Hector Garcia undercard, so he too can have a shot at Spence in the future if he wins here.

[danherbias07]

Okay, so that ends it.

Gervonta Davis def. Hector Luis Garcia via eighth-round TKO
Jaron Ennis def. Karen Chukhadzhian via unanimous decision (120-108, 120-108, 120-108)
Roiman Villa def. Rashidi Ellis via majority decision (114-112, 114-112, 113-113)
Demetrius Andrade def. Demond Nicholson via unanimous decision (100-88, 100-88, 100-88)

https://www.cbssports.com/boxing/news/gervonta-davis-vs-hector-luis-garcia-fight-results-live-boxing-updates-scorecard-start-time-undercard/live/

Garcia repeatedly told his corner "I can't see" in between rounds and the fight is over! Davis does it again, having some rocky moments before scoring the fight-ending shot.

I really thought Garcia can prolong it until it becomes a UD but he felt that last shot in the 8th round.
His soul went out, he was out and yet still fighting and standing. I am amazed he can make it until that round with all the banging in his head and also he didn't fall. Garcia is a great fighter indeed with a lot of heart.

Davis already said in his interview, the other Garcia (Ryan) will be next in April. He will be back to training after celebrating for a week or two.

[Fredomago]

Davis already said in his interview, the other Garcia (Ryan) will be next in April. He will be back to training after celebrating for a week or two.

This is really anticipated and both will be preparing for this upcoming fight, we all know that both fighters are eager to win from one another and it will be concluded once they already inside the ring and throwing their best combinations to win the fight, I see that Davis still will get the favor of bookies here and for those who loves to bet with the underdog, Ryan is someone that they can take as it worth the risk betting with him.

[Baofeng]

Okay, so that ends it.

Gervonta Davis def. Hector Luis Garcia via eighth-round TKO
Jaron Ennis def. Karen Chukhadzhian via unanimous decision (120-108, 120-108, 120-108)
Roiman Villa def. Rashidi Ellis via majority decision (114-112, 114-112, 113-113)
Demetrius Andrade def. Demond Nicholson via unanimous decision (100-88, 100-88, 100-88)

https://www.cbssports.com/boxing/news/gervonta-davis-vs-hector-luis-garcia-fight-results-live-boxing-updates-scorecard-start-time-undercard/live/

Garcia repeatedly told his corner "I can't see" in between rounds and the fight is over! Davis does it again, having some rocky moments before scoring the fight-ending shot.

I really thought Garcia can prolong it until it becomes a UD but he felt that last shot in the 8th round.
His soul went out, he was out and yet still fighting and standing. I am amazed he can make it until that round with all the banging in his head and also he didn't fall. Garcia is a great fighter indeed with a lot of heart.

Davis already said in his interview, the other Garcia (Ryan) will be next in April. He will be back to training after celebrating for a week or two.

The Ellis hype train though has ended in this fight, hehehe. And also Ennis, I guess there is always a first time, as he was extended by Karen to 12 rounds but it was a complete domination by Jaron to win every rounds. So no more Ennis vs Ellis fight in the future, too bad, they hype it already during the press con in this fight.

As what we expected, Davis won but not after a tough and need some rounds to figure out Hector Garcia. But the ring IQ of Davis is one of the best in the game and keep on hitting that same spot of the eye of Garcia. And the total accumulation, as he did the damage was enough and his eye was hurt. And if the boxer complains that he can't see, then it's gonna be over. Hopefully the eye is not that damage to the extend that it needed a repair or something.