[ANN] AEON: Scalable, private, mobile-friendly cryptocurrency

[kazuki49]

Also, I need to do some research into Boolberry.  Do they have a trailing block reward or are they pure hard capped deflationary?  If they have a hard cap on coins, then it makes the case for low inflation in Aeon all the stronger - that way there is an original Cryptonote fork with all three economic mechanisms: deflation, disinflation, and inflation.

They are deflationary - and the dev gets 1% of all coins per block mined unless the miner bother to add a special flag, I don't have problem with this but it could easily mean trouble in the future (for the dev). They got lucky the emission is considerable slower than Monero and its making up for the lack of development (but it shows signs of not being completely abandoned).

Even if the miners vote against the reward, the reward is just deferred. If miners ever vote for the reward in the future, the deferred rewards will be paid out. So it is pretty much a 1% premine, with a lock released slowly (and at an uncertain rate). The only way to get rid of the reward entirely is to hard fork.

Boolberry has no trailing reward at all, it just goes down exponential to zero eventually like Bitcoin.

On the matter of reducing the percentage every year that seems so close to a fixed tail reward amount that it doesn't seem worth pursuing as a distinct option. As I stated on reddit I prefer a fixed reward as it has self-stabilzing properties. In erok's case of burning, the fixed reward becomes a higher percentage. regrowing the money supply more quickly. If none is burned or lost, then the percentage shrinks. This tends toward a constant money supply that is a function of the average long term burn/loss rate.

But I think an small exponential percentage is not bad either. At 1% inflation, at most (assuming no burn/loss) 50% of the share of wealth of a holder who does nothing else to add value to the economy is redistributed over 70 years (sort of a lifetime, though this might be longer in the future). Even in that case the amount of wealth may still increase if the value of the total money supply grows >1%/year. I have no problem with that.

I did not know that, this is effectively a stealthy premine, I cannot support it, the Boolberry community seems nice but here I'm wishing for a takeover now.

I trust your decision as final with regard the tail emission as it will fall within the inherited social contract, it feels like shooting in the dark regarding the correct tail as the optimal economic output will depend on many external factors that are not constant either! I just agree that it should keep the mining going forever.

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[dEBRUYNE]

i think we hashed out something like this before... do you remember? maybe it was something related.

I might have missed this discussed earlier - please forgive me for being wrapped up in something else atm - but money velocity for XMR, AEON & others: doesn't it correlate to the statistical untraceability of transactions? Iow: the more txs, the more mixed-up they are for a given mixin level?

You don't need activity on the chain to mix, see -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ojjkq/can_someone_help_me_understand_the_claims_of/cvxwq10

Also, CT for Monero will hide the amounts in the future -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3pw30d/ringct_for_monero_updated_versions/

But I guess you are somewhat right. That is, with more transaction volume, it will be more difficult for a blockchain observer to spot a certain transaction (although in the future, an observer could not see the amount nor destination).

[smooth]

i think we hashed out something like this before... do you remember? maybe it was something related.

I might have missed this discussed earlier - please forgive me for being wrapped up in something else atm - but money velocity for XMR, AEON & others: doesn't it correlate to the statistical untraceability of transactions? Iow: the more txs, the more mixed-up they are for a given mixin level?

You don't need activity on the chain to mix, see -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ojjkq/can_someone_help_me_understand_the_claims_of/cvxwq10

Also, CT for Monero will hide the amounts in the future -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3pw30d/ringct_for_monero_updated_versions/

But I guess you are somewhat right, that with more transaction volume, it will be more difficult for a blockchain observer to spot a certain transaction (although in the future, an observer could not see the amount nor destination).

Yup. More activity does make everything "more mixed" overall (larger haystack to hide the needle) but it doesn't matter for individual transactions the way it does for coinjoin type techniques or centralized mixers. You are mixing with all transactions that have ever occurred in the past (and even in a slightly different sense ones that will happen in the future), not just the ones happening now. The other techniques only mix between transactions happening at the same time.

[yugo23]

Is it still possible to withdraw delisted AEON from Poloniex? I sent some small quantity to my synced AEON wallet, but nothing arrived. Actually withdrawal status is Pending on Poloniex.

[opennux]

They are deflationary - and the dev gets 1% of all coins per block mined unless the miner bother to add a special flag, I don't have problem with this but it could easily mean trouble in the future (for the dev). They got lucky the emission is considerable slower than Monero and its making up for the lack of development (but it shows signs of not being completely abandoned).

I have mixed feelings about this.  On one hand, it is vastly superior to any IPO in existence, made even more valid by the fact that with a few additional bytes of code any miner is free to opt out.  
  
I believe that perhaps it is defendable if the collected funds go to a "development account" and not just to one person's wallet.  
  
Also, knowing that Boolberry is deflationary pushes my resolve on this issue farther.  
  
I humbly propose we should move to a fixed inflation rate, and the subject of discussion should be what rate is appropriate.  I feel like anything between 0.75% and 0.9% would be fine (but lean towards a nice crisp 0.9%)

Most currencies are 2-4% I think that a .75% rate would not be earthshattering and could give be the evergreen tree from the rear view mirror fresh smell. The fixed rate idea and deflationary theories are fundamentally flawed for crypto imho in many many ways including accidental and purposeful burning of currencies and network activity. I liked the idea before about having an algo that addresses that which controls a dynamic inflation rate... but yeah most countries are 2-4. Now hyperinflation is an interesting concept but when mixed with POS gives the ponzi feels. I dunno what is right but I think 0.75 wont burn the world to the ground, nor will it create a second earth. Run with it. GJ.

Are there any numbers and thoughts on velocity in bitcoin during ascending prices versus descending prices?

I tend to hold on to coins more during descend than ascend.

The more money people have the more money they spend.

[smooth]

Is it still possible to withdraw delisted AEON from Poloniex? I sent some small quantity to my synced AEON wallet, but nothing arrived. Actually withdrawal status is Pending on Poloniex.

Yes but it is a manual process for them and may take a week or longer. If you don't receive it for a few days you might want to open a ticket.

[Nxtblg]

i think we hashed out something like this before... do you remember? maybe it was something related.

I might have missed this discussed earlier - please forgive me for being wrapped up in something else atm - but money velocity for XMR, AEON & others: doesn't it correlate to the statistical untraceability of transactions? Iow: the more txs, the more mixed-up they are for a given mixin level?

You don't need activity on the chain to mix, see -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ojjkq/can_someone_help_me_understand_the_claims_of/cvxwq10

Also, CT for Monero will hide the amounts in the future -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3pw30d/ringct_for_monero_updated_versions/

But I guess you are somewhat right, that with more transaction volume, it will be more difficult for a blockchain observer to spot a certain transaction (although in the future, an observer could not see the amount nor destination).

Yup. More activity does make everything "more mixed" overall (larger haystack to hide the needle) but it doesn't matter for individual transactions the way it does for coinjoin type techniques or centralized mixers. You are mixing with all transactions that have ever occurred in the past (and even in a slightly different sense ones that will happen in the future), not just the ones happening now. The other techniques only mix between transactions happening at the same time.

Got it; thanks. In the back of my mind is the degenerate case wherein there's only one tx on the whole blockchain, except for coinbase txes....

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Then like a quantum foam settling on what it wants to become, let's narrow it down to two binary options for inflation, 0.75% or 0.9%?  
  
I'll make an altcoin topic with a poll in a little while with those two options, "fixed block reward", or "none of the above".  If you have an interest in Aeon, please make your voice heard.  

I argue it's pointless either way. I doubt (without any supporting argument) that anything less than 1% is enough to have any significant effect beyond incentivizing mining. I certainly don't think it's enough to discourage hoarding. If Aeon is really the experimental coin we all pretend it is, then why not actually experiment with it?

[DrkLvr_]

Coins have already experimented with High inflation schemes, as well as anti-hoarding schemes like Freicoin. You don't hear much about them these days. I don't think the inflation rate should the part being experimented with. Just come up with something usable and reasonable that will stand the test of time. I also don't think this should be put up for a community vote. My hope is that smooth will weigh all the pro's and cons and make a leadership decision at some point.

Cheers

[pa]

But I think an small exponential percentage is not bad either. At 1% inflation, at most (assuming no burn/loss) 50% of the share of wealth of a holder who does nothing else to add value to the economy is redistributed over 70 years (sort of a lifetime, though this might be longer in the future). Even in that case the amount of wealth may still increase if the value of the total money supply grows >1%/year. I have no problem with that.

I like this idea of a 1% perpetual inflation. Money is memory. Inflation is forgetting and creates headroom for value creation.

[DrkLvr_]

1%.

Simple.

Elegant.

Make it so 

[smooth]

Coins have already experimented with High inflation schemes, as well as anti-hoarding schemes like Freicoin. You don't hear much about them these days. I don't think the inflation rate should the part being experimented with. Just come up with something usable and reasonable that will stand the test of time. I also don't think this should be put up for a community vote. My hope is that smooth will weigh all the pro's and cons and make a leadership decision at some point.

Good points. On the bold, I suggested discussion, not a vote. These forum votes are a sham anyway. I will do exactly what you said: weigh input and make a decision.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Freicoin, iirc, used a tax-like debasement mechanism and worked on a fixed rate.

I agree that typical forms of inflation have already been experimented with, which is why a fixed X% accomplishes little more than, "look, this coin is inflationary!"

A smart-inflation like system would only increase the money supply as needed, meaning there would effectively be no inflation at all (outside of standard emission) until the coin started seeing greater transaction volumes.

TL;DR I'd rather see a dynamic "smart inflation" that doesn't exceed 1% (which is kind of pointless, but at least the mechanism would be in place) than a fixed 1%, which has been done before.

Also, I realize we haven't yet designed a system for making this work that cannot be gamed, but I have some ideas if it turns out to be something we wish to pursue.

[americanpegasus]

I agree that a 1995 style poll can't capture the true spirit of the community.  
  
For what it's worth, I also put my weight behind 1% inflation.  It's a flat, easy number, never seen before in any serious and major cryptocurrency (and I expect Aeon to become a staple of the Cryptonote world over the coming years).  I also think from everything I've read that those who are pro-inflation (and I haven't heard anyone who is really against the idea) will also agree this is a great compromise between debasement and mining incentive.  It also doesn't break the social contract imho.  
  
As far as Johnny Mneumonic's idea of smart inflation: if there is some revolutionary peer-reviewed economic mechanism invented in coming years which fits this description (and has been properly tested in mock economies in simulations) I think it might be worth examining.  For the time being we need to make a decision now that is time tested and provides us with the ideal fit of all variables and resources.  Satoshi didn't wait until cryptographic ring signatures could be integrated before launching bitcoin; he used what he had and launched the best money possible.  We should do the same.  We don't have any such "ideal variable inflation" in existence yet (if it is possible to even define formally), so all we can do is be open to the idea if it is invented down the road.  
  
I reiterate the move to a compounding 1% emission.  I've made an approximated chart (assuming the initial emission falls to 1% rate in 2022).  Here's what the curve will look like; as you can see - the effect is negligible over just a few short decades but provides some element of 'future proofing' (as a currency named aeon ought to do).  
  
 
  

[generalizethis]

I'm for 1% to 1.5% inflation--anything less is parroting Monero and anything more is parroting fiat. I like JM's idea for dynamic infaltion, but it has to be something that is workable and can be trusted to work as advertised before I could get behind it fully.

[kazuki49]

For the sake of the social contract it can't be 1% or higher, anything equal or bellow 0,999% is valid.

[americanpegasus]

For the sake of the social contract it can't be 1% or higher, anything equal or bellow 0,999% is valid.

 
 
Please elaborate.  I feel like maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

[kazuki49]

For the sake of the social contract it can't be 1% or higher, anything equal or bellow 0,999% is valid.

 
 
Please elaborate.  I feel like maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

If you read the first post on this topic it says:

[2] Proposed: minimum maintenance reward of <1%/year for mining incentive starting after approximately 8 years.

[MbccompanyX]

For the sake of the social contract it can't be 1% or higher, anything equal or bellow 0,999% is valid.

 
 
Please elaborate.  I feel like maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

If you read the first post on this topic it says:

[2] Proposed: minimum maintenance reward of <1%/year for mining incentive starting after approximately 8 years.

1. can you see that at the moment is just proposed? most likely will not be definitive

2. if says after 8 years, the problem is that we can't be sure if after 8 years the coin will be still alive so why are you always thinking that far?

[kazuki49]

For the sake of the social contract it can't be 1% or higher, anything equal or bellow 0,999% is valid.

 
  
Please elaborate.  I feel like maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

If you read the first post on this topic it says:

[2] Proposed: minimum maintenance reward of <1%/year for mining incentive starting after approximately 8 years.

1. can you see that at the moment is just proposed? most likely will not be definitive

2. if says after 8 years, the problem is that we can't be sure if after 8 years the coin will be still alive so why are you always thinking that far?

Because crypto is not just backed by math or cryptography, its monetary rules are set in stone, it can't be changed later.