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Author Topic: [XCR] Crypti | Dapps | Sidechains | Dapp Store | OPEN SOURCE | 100% own code | DPoS  (Read 804665 times)
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thelittlemanbtc
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October 26, 2014, 12:53:38 PM
 #8061

oh gee sorry for making it go 500 sat..  had to sell 25% lower than ipo  Cry
the litlte man btcs btc saga ends it shortlived life  Angry

good luck boys..
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October 26, 2014, 12:54:50 PM
 #8062

Some very interesting discussions going on here, good to see active and intellectual community involvement.

We've not heard about the new logo design from some time now - is it still being discussed or has been sidelined as we are finding a way for PoT implementation ?

Also would like to know about new web design. Not expecting quick updates on this as I understand GreXX is on leave for a week but wanted to
put this query out there.



Just between you and me, both projects have been outsourced to professional designers.  Don't tell anyone I told you, OK?

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October 26, 2014, 12:56:37 PM
 #8063

1. Without forging fees, how will you combat spam?  I have only talked to one developer that has said he can do this and his coin hasn't been released so there you go. 

Transaction fees, if implemented to prevent spam, don't automatically have to go to forgers as a "prize".  They can go to a single pot under control of the Crypsi Foundation and be spent by committee vote on worthy projects that benefit everybody.  Then it's a "tax", not a "prize", and Crypti would still be the only legal cryptocoin not running an illegal lottery.

2. The approach of putting it all on vendors and their hardware is in theory a sustainable model, and one I think is a good idea, just not from Crypti.  The problem is the bootstrap.  It would literally take a company like Apple or Google to release their iBits or Gbits to get mass amounts of retailers to update their hardware. 

Crypti doesn't have the money, power, or pull of Google or Apple, so trying to get vendors to install new hardware is a dream.  Your best bet would be to find some pre-existing hardware that would be compatible with Crypti and try to get a firmware update.  It couldn't be a hack because nobody is going to trust a third party changing the code in their POS terminal.  That is unwise.  Sooooo, that means talking directly to the manufacturer and good luck with that.  I'm not sure if you could even get somebody high up to even answer the phone. 

The Coinbox guys are talking to pcDuino about using their $39 nano : http://liliputing.com/2014/09/pcduino3-nano-smaller-cheaper-mini-pc-arduino-support.html

I totally agree that getting vendors to buy in cold and install one of these as JUST a Crypti node is a fantasy.  However, if it ALSO supported Bitcoin transactions at the same time as it was running Crypti node software,  Bitcoin vendors would buy it for the flexibility it would offer their existing Bitcoin transactions.  The initial sales pitch would educate them by highlighting that Bitcoin is an illegal lottery and is going to be declared illegal soon, Bitcoin is on the decline, Cryptsi is on the upswing and this board is not only a valuable tool for today but insurance for an uncertain tomorrow as well.  On the day a State AG issues a ruling that Bitcoin mining is illegal in his State and violates his lottery laws, our message goes viral and demand for our dual-purpose board would skyrocket.

3. As Starik pointed out, then this system isn't decentralized which of course is not necessary, but it is, because it is an established cannon rule that whatever crypto win the alt wars be, it must be decentralized and open sourced.

I presume you are talking about the various proposed PoT system upgrades.  As I understand it (and I may be wrong, and maybe the consultant can come up with some other approach), the original PoT implementation used identical decentralized peers but wouldn't scale beyond 50 nodes.  The upgrades being evaluated to allow PoT scaling involve either (a) a tree structure with comm-linked "super-peers" controlling groups of identical peers under them, with ALL nodes having the possibility of forging a block every blocktime, or (b) numerous small networks of comm-linked identical peers that are rotated in to forge a block by some central authority when their turn comes, with only SOME nodes having the possibility of forging a block every blocktime.  Neither (a) nor (b) is a decentralized approach.

There are only three possible outcomes here.  First, Crypti gets its original decentralized all-equal-peer PoT algorithm working despite initial latency problems.  Second, Crypti goes with a PoT system that is not decentralized and has one-or-more privileged "super-peers" at centralized locations within the algorithm.  Third, Crypti goes with a non-PoT system.  

If Boris & Co. are successful with the first outcome (and if there is no community effort made to change the development course for Crypti), then there is no further decision to be made.  The Crypti team delivers a PoT algorithm exactly as they said they would, forgers are selected by decentralized PoT and get paid exactly as they expected to be paid, and as vendors slowly come to dominate the Crypti system in the future, forgers will eventually "weed themselves out naturally" over RoI considerations.  

If the first possible outcome fails, Crypti will be forced to go with the second or third outcome.

If Boris & Co. are successful with the second outcome (and if there is no community effort made to change the development course for Crypti), then there is no further decision to be made.  The Crypti team delivers a PoT algorithm exactly as they said they would, forgers are selected by centralized PoT and get paid exactly as they expected to be paid, and as vendors slowly come to dominate the Crypti system in the future, forgers will eventually "weed themselves out naturally" over RoI considerations.  Plus, Crypti is a weaker-than-desired cryptocoin because of its unfortunately-necessary embedded centralization.

Note second outcome ("centralized super-peer PoT") may be infeasible and so never released by the devs.  It may also be undesirable to a point where it is rejected by the community even if released by the devs.  Note that infeasible and undesirable are two different sets of circumstances, but both lead to selecting the third option (non-PoT).    

There are many possible non-PoT variants for Crypti.  My proposed vendor-oriented, no forging version and starting an illegal-lottery PR war with Bitcoin is only one possibility.  Let's hear yours.

4. There is some great theoretically ideas being tossed around here about how to solve many of the PoW problems that Bitcoin has plagued us with, but the [final] answer just hasn't come yet. 

We're not done introducing new ideas yet, either.  At least, I'm not.  Stay tuned.
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October 26, 2014, 01:03:28 PM
 #8064

Mal,

I like your essay, but I see a couple of errors.  Bitseed addressed one already.

Your statement that solving the PoW on BTC mining is random chance is not entirely true.  It is not random chance because every failed hash results in one less possibility for the solution.  Each failed hash increases the chance of finding the solution.

For example:  To open a combination lock, every possible combination is attempted in numerical order from lowest to highest.  When the combination is found, it was not a random chance, it is an eventuality of the process.

Random chance would be if any person could only try one combination, and had no knowledge of the previous attempted combinations.

Also, supposing BTC was declared an illegal lottery...... that would only affect the mining, not the existing coins.

California has declared BTC to be a legal currency.

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October 26, 2014, 01:14:03 PM
Last edit: October 27, 2014, 01:10:23 AM by MalReynolds
 #8065

Mal, these are some serious statements about attacking Bitcoin. I dont like that at all. I mean hurting Bitcoin means hurting everyone in Crypto and this is not a solution or proper way to start new currency or any project for that matter. If Crypti should overcome Bitcoin thats great, but intentionally trying to destroy Bitcoin – i wont be participating in that, thats for sure!

Sigh.  That's exactly what they said to me at NXT.

History shows that new world orders are established by revolutions, which are messy and inflict some hurt on everybody.

Bitcoin has serious flaws that are eventually going to kill it, and its legal status is only one of them.  

Bitcoin IS an illegal lottery under US State law.  Keeping that fact "quiet" doesn't make it untrue.  

Today Bitcoin has a market cap of 4.8 billion dollars.  Crypti has a market cap of 183 thousand dollars.

Bitcoin's market cap is over 25,000 times that of Crypti.

The only way that Crypti can become a key cryptocurrency is by using every edge at its disposal.

I'm ready to do that.  
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October 26, 2014, 01:16:33 PM
 #8066

Mal,

As I stated earlier, California has declared BTC to be a legal currency.  Why?  Taxes of course.

I know from personal experience that California charges income tax on "world wide income", not just income earned within the state.  I had to pay California income tax on my wife's Idaho income because I earned over $600 in California in 2013. 

By declaring BTC as legal currency, California can collect income tax on the world wide BTC  income of anyone that earned $600 or more from a California entity.

If your BTC is banked at Coinbase (in San Francisco) and you made money on it........... congratulations!!!  you now have to file and pay California Income Taxes on all your world wide income. 


The ANSWER TO EVERYTHING is not "42".  It's "FOLLOW THE MONEY"

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October 26, 2014, 01:36:09 PM
Last edit: October 26, 2014, 01:57:47 PM by MalReynolds
 #8067


As I stated earlier, California has declared BTC to be a legal currency.  Why?  Taxes of course.


The California Franchise Tax Board (CFTB - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Franchise_Tax_Board has not declared Bitcoin to be "legal" anymore than the Federal IRS has. They both have "only" declared profits from Bitcoin speculation and appreciation to be a taxable form of income.   Technically, criminal drug dealers and prostitutes are supposed to declare their earnings as taxable income, too, even tho what they are selling is illegal.  This is how they put Al Capone behind bars.  They never arrested him for selling illegal booze during Prohibition - they jailed him for not paying taxes on that income.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone  

Tax organizations like IRS and CFTB are parts of a governing body's "Department of Treasury (DOT)" and do not have the authority to declare something "legal" or "illegal" under that governing body's established law.   That is the duty of the governing body's "Department of Justice (DOJ)" and for States, the top DOJ officer is the State Attorney General.  There are 50+ of these (see http://www.naag.org/current-attorneys-general.php ), and not a single one has made a statement declaring Bitcoin to be legal.  I maintain that they will be forced to declare Bitcoin mining to be an illegal lottery if and when its specifics are clearly explained to them.  

Your other comments about "progressively changing chance" does not alter the legal fact that a chance mechanism is involved to select the winning miner that wins a 25 Bitcoin prize every ten minutes.  

Also, a declaration that PoW mining is an illegal lottery would make existing coins tainted and eligible for confiscation because they came from a poisoned source.  Don't believe me?  See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/?hpid=z3

I believe that a ruling that Bitcoin was an illegal lottery would send vendors to a no-forging Crypti in droves, overnight.

Use some of the 750 BTC in the Crypti fund to buy an hour or two of a professional lawyer's time to prove me wrong:

http://www.theiaga.org/
http://bestlawfirms.usnews.com/gaming-law

For now, I stand by my claims.
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October 26, 2014, 01:37:14 PM
Last edit: January 12, 2015, 11:52:38 AM by karmacoma24
 #8068

History shows that new world orders are established by revolutions, which are messy and inflict some hurt on everybody.

Bitcoin has serious flaws that are eventually going to kill it, and its legal status is only one of them.  

Bitcoin IS an illegal lottery under US State law.  Keeping that fact "quiet" doesn't make it untrue.  

Today Bitcoin has a market cap of 4.8 billion dollars.  Crypti has a market cap of 183 thousand dollars.

Bitcoin's market cap is over 25,000 times that of Crypti.

The only way that Crypti can become a key cryptocurrency is by using every edge at its disposal.

I'm ready to do that.  

I think many would agree. Nowadays, we all seem to be under US jurisdiction regardless of where we live in the world. If we are going to have a revolution, then lets pick our enemies wisely. I for one don't regard Bitcoin as an enemy. In fact I regard Bitcoin as a fellow comrade who is still stuck in the trenches. Maybe in 5-10 years after governments have imposed their various regulations on us, we will all be at each others throats...

A revolution requires weapons (PoT, PoP) and an army (Forgers, Vendors). At the moment we don't have much of either one.

Let's focus on building what we have so far, whilst keeping an open mind along the way.

Btw I am enjoying reading your comments. So please carry on... Smiley

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October 26, 2014, 01:46:01 PM
 #8069


As I stated earlier, California has declared BTC to be a legal currency.  Why?  Taxes of course.


The California Franchise Tax Board (CFTB - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Franchise_Tax_Board has not declared Bitcoin to be "legal" anymore than the Federal IRS has. They both have "only" declared profits from Bitcoin speculation and appreciation to be a taxable form of income.   Technically, criminal drug dealers and prostitutes are supposed to declare their earnings as taxable income, too, even tho what they are selling is illegal.  This is how they put Al Capone behind bars.  They never arrested him for selling illegal booze during Prohibition - they jailed him for not paying taxes on that income.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone  

Tax organizations like IRS and CFTB are parts of a governing body's "Department of Treasury (DOT)" and do not have the authority to declare something "legal" or "illegal" under that governing body's established law.   That is the duty of the governing body's "Department of Justice (DOJ)" and for States, the top DOJ officer is the State Attorney General.  There are 50+ of these (see http://www.naag.org/current-attorneys-general.php ), and not a single one has made a statement declaring Bitcoin to be legal.  I maintain that they will be forced to declare Bitcoin mining illegal if and when its specifics are clearly explained to them.  

Your other comments about "progressively changing chance" does not alter the legal fact that a chance mechanism is involved to select the winning miner that wins a 25 Bitcoin prize every ten minutes.  

Use some of the 750 BTC in the Crypti fund to buy an hour or two of a professional lawyer's time to prove me wrong:

http://www.theiaga.org/
http://bestlawfirms.usnews.com/gaming-law

For now, I stand by my claims.

Mal, California has declared BTC to be LEGAL INCOME. as versus ILLEGAL INCOME. 

One of the little 'gotchas" in California Tax Law is that you have to declare all income, legal and illegal, but you cannot deduct expenses for illegal income.

A dope dealer that sells dope for 100,000 dollars, but bought it for 80,000 dollars is liable for tax on the whole 100,000, not just he 20,000 dollar profit.

If BTC was illegal income, the expense of mining would not be deductible under Calif law, but is under Federal law.


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October 26, 2014, 01:54:00 PM
 #8070


As I stated earlier, California has declared BTC to be a legal currency.  Why?  Taxes of course.


The California Franchise Tax Board (CFTB - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Franchise_Tax_Board has not declared Bitcoin to be "legal" anymore than the Federal IRS has. They both have "only" declared profits from Bitcoin speculation and appreciation to be a taxable form of income.   Technically, criminal drug dealers and prostitutes are supposed to declare their earnings as taxable income, too, even tho what they are selling is illegal.  This is how they put Al Capone behind bars.  They never arrested him for selling illegal booze during Prohibition - they jailed him for not paying taxes on that income.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone  

Tax organizations like IRS and CFTB are parts of a governing body's "Department of Treasury (DOT)" and do not have the authority to declare something "legal" or "illegal" under that governing body's established law.   That is the duty of the governing body's "Department of Justice (DOJ)" and for States, the top DOJ officer is the State Attorney General.  There are 50+ of these (see http://www.naag.org/current-attorneys-general.php ), and not a single one has made a statement declaring Bitcoin to be legal.  I maintain that they will be forced to declare Bitcoin mining illegal if and when its specifics are clearly explained to them.  

Your other comments about "progressively changing chance" does not alter the legal fact that a chance mechanism is involved to select the winning miner that wins a 25 Bitcoin prize every ten minutes.  

Use some of the 750 BTC in the Crypti fund to buy an hour or two of a professional lawyer's time to prove me wrong:

http://www.theiaga.org/
http://bestlawfirms.usnews.com/gaming-law

For now, I stand by my claims.

Mal, California has declared BTC to be LEGAL INCOME. as versus ILLEGAL INCOME.  

One of the little 'gotchas" in California Tax Law is that you have to declare all income, legal and illegal, but you cannot deduct expenses for illegal income.

A dope dealer that sells dope for 100,000 dollars, but bought it for 80,000 dollars is liable for tax on the whole 100,000, not just he 20,000 dollar profit.

If BTC was illegal income, the expense of mining would not be deductible under Calif law, but is under Federal law.


For now we can agree to disagree.  I stand by my statement that the CTFB does not have the authority to interpret California gaming law and did not issue their ruling with "prize / chance and consideration" in mind.  These bureaucrats do not understand just what is under the hood of PoW mining, all they see is lots of piles of money they can tax.  Bitcoin has been on the public radar for only a year or so.  There is much more legal interpretation on its status yet to come.  It will only take one AG to declare it an illegal lottery to start the FUD ball rolling and a huge movement to a non-lottery based cryptocoin - which will be somebody and could be Crypti.

A declaration that PoW mining is an illegal lottery would make existing coins tainted and eligible for confiscation because they came from a poisoned source.  Don't believe me?  See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/?hpid=z3
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October 26, 2014, 01:55:18 PM
 #8071

Anyone saw the flash dump on BTER? Just got myself some more XCR  Wink
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October 26, 2014, 02:00:28 PM
 #8072

Some very interesting discussions going on here, good to see active and intellectual community involvement.

We've not heard about the new logo design from some time now - is it still being discussed or has been sidelined as we are finding a way for PoT implementation ?

Also would like to know about new web design. Not expecting quick updates on this as I understand GreXX is on leave for a week but wanted to
put this query out there.



From an earlier post from GreXX :

Christine Isslander has been hired as Crypti's professional designer. Take a look at some of her work here : https://dribbble.com/christineissland, once you see her work you'll realize just how good she actually is. She has also recently designed the snapCard.io site : http://snapcard.io/

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October 26, 2014, 03:20:58 PM
 #8073

I welcome all challenging commentary by others that would show any of my presumptions to be incorrect.

Why would anyone argue presumptions?   Undecided

I DO NOT CONSENT TO ANY AND ALL PRESUMPTIONS OF Crypti RUNNING AN ILLEGAL LOTTERY

You see...  the above would end the story right there...  presumptions won't/can't take you too far!   Wink

...I will be in the background reading though...


I think you are confusing ASSUMPTION with Presumption:


 From Wiki:

There are two types of presumption: rebuttable presumption and conclusive presumption. An example of presumption without basic facts is presumption of innocence.[5]

An example of presumption with basic facts is Declared death in absentia, e.g., the law says if a person has been missing for seven years or more (basic fact), that person is presumed dead



I question Mal's conclusions, not his thought train.  As above, a seven year missing person is presumed dead, which allows legal issues to be settled, but it does not then end the physical life of the person if he/she were in hiding or kept in the basement as a sex slave by the local creep.



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October 26, 2014, 03:55:31 PM
 #8074

Whew... lot of great conversation here since I logged off for the night.

Let me start off by stating definitively that we will be expending NO energy starting a war with Bitcoin at this time or anywhere in the near future. As I mentioned before, we don't see Bitcoin as an enemy, but a partner in attempting to change the landscape and take the power away from the banks, credit companies, and traditional financial system.

What Mal is suggesting may be attempted by someone (Mal or otherwise, i.e. Ripple) and needs to be taken into consideration. We want to ensure that Crypti is as strong as possible from a legal standpoint from the ground up. In developing our PoT formula and system, we were attempting to take this into consideration and I had actually thought through this very scenario (and it's why I am so averse to the current solution). We specifically designed the PoT system to NOT be random and to reward based on input and work provided. In essence, work in, hit a threshold, payment out.

My long term worry, and one I am still working out, is the possibility that someone will declare forgers as employees due to the nature of the system. That is a completely separate possible headache that I am trying to figure out the logistics of. We will continue to consider all possible legal ramifications of our system and that of the crypto currency landscape and prepare Crypti to have answers were any of them to become issues.

What Mal says does however prove that we need to be prepared and have contingencies for these types of inevitable possibilities and legal maneuvers by competitors and people like the current financial industry that have very expensive lawyers and never ending resources. Were they at some point to see us as a true threat, you better believe we would see the weight of it all.

So back to Crypti.

One of the goals of crypto currencies in general was to create a financial system that could not be controlled by anyone. This was our goal as well and centralization is not something we favor or want to implement. As a last resort plan DEF, sure, we would consider it, but it is not very high on our list of possibilities.

As mentioned previously, we continue to strive to develop the system that we said we would. We have no plans to adjust course until we can definitively say that what we intend is just 100% not possible (which you may never convince me of that). As far as we are concerned, nothing has changed from the initial direction we laid out on day 1. This is still our driving force and is the system we are building.


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October 26, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
 #8075

As far as an update on the web design, Christine and I are working on it. We most likely will not post anything until it is all complete (as we won't receive final versions of materials until the full contract is complete and paid), but I'll consider posting some sneak peeks as we go.

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October 26, 2014, 05:29:41 PM
 #8076

What Mal has proposed has given me an idea on solving the PoT problem. I have never liked the lottery aspect of Bitcoin mining since it encourages the consolidation of mining into mining pools. Joining a mining pool lets the participant earn a steady return instead of hoping to eventually win a block reward.

With Crypti, I would rather see all nodes, or those meeting a minimum threshold of uptime, divide all of the forger portion of fees as they come in. This would eliminate the windfall a node receives if it happens to forge a block containing a large total of fees while other blocks pay less by simply distributing a portion of the fees to each node in proportion to its weight determined by PoT and PoP. This would work as a consensus system to confirm transactions as they come in. It simplifies things a lot by not needing to sort or compare weights from nodes to determine the winner of the next block.

This would maintain the decentralized architecture of Crypti, eliminate the lottery aspect, and improve network performance.

The proposed plan to attack other projects using legal means is a non-starter for me as it goes completely against my ethics. I go out of my way to avoid doing business with companies and professions which receive protectionist mercantile privilege or use the legal system to thwart competition and force people to do business with them.

Bitseed - dedicated full node hardware
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October 26, 2014, 06:01:41 PM
 #8077

So what you are proposing is that the forging would still be randomly assigned, but the fees would be divided among all the nodes online at the time?

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October 27, 2014, 12:41:03 AM
 #8078

Can somebody tell me where we were at?

Our goal right now is to find a solution to build the system that we said we would, build it, and then bring it to market.

How long does it take you to find a solution?A month will be enough?

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October 27, 2014, 01:46:02 AM
 #8079

Can somebody tell me where we were at?

Our goal right now is to find a solution to build the system that we said we would, build it, and then bring it to market.

How long does it take you to find a solution?A month will be enough?

The PoT problem has been put on a fast track at extra expense to our budget.  We cannot release it half done, so it will be released when it is fully tested. 

What more can I promise?  Free Cryptoshis? 


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October 27, 2014, 08:58:15 AM
 #8080

Ah~~~
Why the price is so low, does the coin dead?
Just few traders playing.
Most of the bag-holders are sleeping and go for holiday. Cheesy


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