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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807458 times)
silverbox
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May 22, 2012, 10:33:15 PM
 #1501

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)
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May 22, 2012, 10:33:39 PM
 #1502

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard.  you couldn't move the metal fast enough. 

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems.  once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

AFAIK, Nixon abandoning gold standard in 1971 was neither because we couldn't move gold fast enough,  nor because gold centralizing didn't work.
miscreanity
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May 22, 2012, 10:34:35 PM
 #1503

If you do not physically control it you do not own it. If you are given something to represent the value of it you have exchanged it for that representation. Somebody else controls the actual, physical metal.

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May 22, 2012, 10:37:13 PM
 #1504

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard.  you couldn't move the metal fast enough. 

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems.  once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

That's right. Heavy metal is still heavy. Unless you control it physically (either in your pocket or in a vault) you can not be assured that what you are transferring is fully backed by the metal, i.e. the metal itself. Practical, daily movements will require the addition of an abstraction layer and that will be vulnerable to fractionalization. The direct transfer of value in the form of the metal itself will always be relegated to a backwater of economic functionality.

So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

Fractionalization depends on the notion that everyone won't do that, and they won't unless there is a run, and there wouldn't be a run if everyone is assured that the full value of their currency in the form of the metal is at hand... It is still a house of cards that is dependent on the assurance by an external authority that things are operating as they should.

Good point, but a prudent person could just function completely with physical under such a system (pre '33 for example) and be assured that things are operating as they should for them personally.  So long as a decent chunk of the people did this, the system would be authentic.  
miscreanity
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May 22, 2012, 10:37:47 PM
 #1505

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)

Yes, but it's officially treated as a tradeable asset, not a currency. Treating it as a currency would be very simple in practice.
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May 22, 2012, 10:42:41 PM
 #1506

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)

Yes, but it's officially treated as a tradeable asset, not a currency. Treating it as a currency would be very simple in practice.

What, you want a law saying its legal tender for all debts public and private??  Go to Utah Wink  

It doesn't take long to convert paper gold/silver to fiat..  Its functionally the same as currency.
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May 22, 2012, 10:43:04 PM
 #1507



So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously.  that's the point.
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May 22, 2012, 10:45:20 PM
 #1508

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)

yes, but what about THE CONSPIRACY!?!!!!
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May 22, 2012, 10:49:15 PM
 #1509

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard.  you couldn't move the metal fast enough. 

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems.  once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

That's right. Heavy metal is still heavy. Unless you control it physically (either in your pocket or in a vault) you can not be assured that what you are transferring is fully backed by the metal, i.e. the metal itself. Practical, daily movements will require the addition of an abstraction layer and that will be vulnerable to fractionalization. The direct transfer of value in the form of the metal itself will always be relegated to a backwater of economic functionality.

So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

Fractionalization depends on the notion that everyone won't do that, and they won't unless there is a run, and there wouldn't be a run if everyone is assured that the full value of their currency in the form of the metal is at hand... It is still a house of cards that is dependent on the assurance by an external authority that things are operating as they should.

Good point, but a prudent person could just function completely with physical under such a system (pre '33 for example) and be assured that things are operating as they should for them personally.  So long as a decent chunk of the people did this, the system would be authentic.  

Only, a decent chunk of people won't do this, because they cant. Just like they can't function without plastic. 

So those peeps make their beds.  The prudent ones will be protected.  

I run the plastic like crazy, they give out tons of free shit, cashback, points, bonus money for the first 500, 1000 whever you spend.  I credit card hop those bitches, get a new one every few months take the free shit, dumb ass's.  I always pay em off every month, never balance transfer...   and peeps wonder why the banks are going broke..  The next one on my list is a capital one free $100 with the first $500 spent, 1.5% cashback.  I'll take that 20% thanks.. The one I been using for the last few months.. free $200 for the first $1000 spent.. 1% cashback, 5% on select stuff, chase freedom..  I could just pay cash, but why?? when I get a 15-20% dicsount to use the plastic..
silverbox
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May 22, 2012, 10:51:03 PM
 #1510



So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously.  that's the point.

We run out of cargo jets or sumpin??
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May 22, 2012, 10:52:06 PM
 #1511

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard.  you couldn't move the metal fast enough. 

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems.  once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

AFAIK, Nixon abandoning gold standard in 1971 was neither because we couldn't move gold fast enough,  nor because gold centralizing didn't work.

i disagree.  the US trading partners took the word of the US Treasury/Fed that theirs/ours gold reserves were actually present in Fort Knox (centralized).  the trading partners left them there b/c it was too inconvenient/heavy to be moving around the world on a daily basis. 

eventually the French got suspicious and called us on it.  what did we do?  DEFAULT.
miscreanity
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May 22, 2012, 10:55:49 PM
 #1512

What, you want a law saying its legal tender for all debts public and private??  Go to Utah Wink  

It doesn't take long to convert paper gold/silver to fiat..  Its functionally the same as currency.

Too hot Smiley

It doesn't take long, but it generally can't be exchanged directly. That kills the convenience factor.
silverbox
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May 22, 2012, 10:58:04 PM
 #1513


Only, a decent chunk of people won't do this, because they cant. Just like they can't function without plastic. 

So those peeps make their beds.  The prudent ones will be protected.  

I run the plastic like crazy, they give out tons of free shit, cashback, points, bonus money for the first 500, 1000 whever you spend.  I credit card hop those bitches, get a new one every few months take the free shit, dumb ass's.  I always pay em off every month, never balance transfer...   and peeps wonder why the banks are going broke..  The next one on my list is a capital one free $100 with the first $500 spent, 1.5% cashback.  I'll take that 20% thanks.. The one I been using for the last few months.. free $200 for the first $1000 spent.. 1% cashback, 5% on select stuff, chase freedom..  I could just pay cash, but why?? when I get a 15-20% dicsount to use the plastic..

But do you see the problem? If "those peeps" account for the mass of the economy they don't just make their own beds... It affects the whole economy... It affects you.

Ah but in a pre '33 style system their isn't constant inflation and easy money, easy credit..  Peeps won't get a zillion chances at easy credit, you screw up paying somebody back, you just won't get any credit anymore.  The users (aka "those peeps") won't affect shit, cause they won't have any credit or paper or clanking coins, they will actually have to work for a living and live within their means.  Peeps from the great depression era are savers, not users.
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May 22, 2012, 10:58:24 PM
 #1514



So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously.  that's the point.

We run out of cargo jets or sumpin??

AV gas is pricey.  Bitcoins can be moved across the globe much cheaper.  Even dollars are cheaper to move since gold is so damn heavy.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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silverbox
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May 22, 2012, 10:59:47 PM
 #1515

What, you want a law saying its legal tender for all debts public and private??  Go to Utah Wink  

It doesn't take long to convert paper gold/silver to fiat..  Its functionally the same as currency.

Too hot Smiley

It doesn't take long, but it generally can't be exchanged directly. That kills the convenience factor.

No more inconvienent then writing a check or transfering money from savings to checking..
notme
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May 22, 2012, 11:00:56 PM
 #1516


Only, a decent chunk of people won't do this, because they cant. Just like they can't function without plastic. 

So those peeps make their beds.  The prudent ones will be protected.  

I run the plastic like crazy, they give out tons of free shit, cashback, points, bonus money for the first 500, 1000 whever you spend.  I credit card hop those bitches, get a new one every few months take the free shit, dumb ass's.  I always pay em off every month, never balance transfer...   and peeps wonder why the banks are going broke..  The next one on my list is a capital one free $100 with the first $500 spent, 1.5% cashback.  I'll take that 20% thanks.. The one I been using for the last few months.. free $200 for the first $1000 spent.. 1% cashback, 5% on select stuff, chase freedom..  I could just pay cash, but why?? when I get a 15-20% dicsount to use the plastic..

But do you see the problem? If "those peeps" account for the mass of the economy they don't just make their own beds... It affects the whole economy... It affects you.

Ah but in a pre '33 style system their isn't constant inflation and easy money, easy credit..  Peeps won't get a zillion chances at easy credit, you screw up paying somebody back, you just won't get any credit anymore.  The users (aka "those peeps") won't affect shit, cause they won't have any credit or paper or clanking coins, they will actually have to work for a living and live within their means.  Peeps from the great depression era are savers, not users.

And it's exactly this saver instinct the boomers exploited to rob them.  It's okay, the boomers will get what's coming now that they all need to retire at once.  Last one out's a rotten egg!

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
silverbox
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May 22, 2012, 11:01:07 PM
 #1517



So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously.  that's the point.

We run out of cargo jets or sumpin??

Are you really going to mail in gold coins to pay your gas bill?

Is someone from Algeria really going to DHL gold to Chicago to pay the rent on their oil tanker?

lol, what you want every transaction to be in physical?  You can't have some in physical and some in paper??  Roll Eyes  and just maybe some wait for it... electronic..
notme
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May 22, 2012, 11:03:39 PM
 #1518



So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously.  that's the point.

We run out of cargo jets or sumpin??

Are you really going to mail in gold coins to pay your gas bill?

Is someone from Algeria really going to DHL gold to Chicago to pay the rent on their oil tanker?

lol, what you want every transaction to be in physical?  You can't have some in physical and some in paper??  Roll Eyes

I believe the topic was international settlements.  The problems with paper in this area have been addressed.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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silverbox
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May 22, 2012, 11:05:03 PM
 #1519



So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously.  that's the point.

We run out of cargo jets or sumpin??

Are you really going to mail in gold coins to pay your gas bill?

Is someone from Algeria really going to DHL gold to Chicago to pay the rent on their oil tanker?

lol, what you want every transaction to be in physical?  You can't have some in physical and some in papar??  Roll Eyes

That's the thing though. Once you add that abstraction layer you can not prevent it from becoming fractionalized.


We been over this, of course you can, so long as a good chunk of the peeps keep the majority of their assets in physical.  It's all a matter of whether you trust the bank more, or your neighbors.. Wink
silverbox
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May 22, 2012, 11:07:25 PM
 #1520



So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.  

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously.  that's the point.

We run out of cargo jets or sumpin??

Are you really going to mail in gold coins to pay your gas bill?

Is someone from Algeria really going to DHL gold to Chicago to pay the rent on their oil tanker?

lol, what you want every transaction to be in physical?  You can't have some in physical and some in paper??  Roll Eyes

I believe the topic was international settlements.  The problems with paper in this area have been addressed.

Settle up every few weeks with cargo jets.  *shrug*  In WW2 they used boats filled with gold and silver, but its the modern age, jets will work just as well..
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