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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808595 times)
Zarathustra
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June 24, 2015, 10:18:04 AM
 #27341

Fun watching u two dance.. Get a room already! :p

Me and cypherdoc:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qoys8eUn9k

And I only wanted to box  Shocked

Here's what inevitably happens to poor cypherdoc when he bothers me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnSpeGlc9ic

It's been going on for years but the guy never seems to learn.



no one cares for your socialist, elitist view around here except for maybe TPTB and a few others.  but go ahead, dream on.

This is true.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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Zangelbert Bingledack
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June 24, 2015, 11:45:32 AM
 #27342

I'm more of the opinion that Bitcoin will succeed, provided that it does not fail, and that a misstep can easily be worse than doing nothing.
Intelligent people may disagree with this.

The question is, what more qualifies as "doing nothing":

  • Letting Bitcoin operate with constantly full blocks, which has never been done before, or
  • Continuing to let Bitcoin operate with non-full blocks, effectively uncapped,* as it always has

   ?


*Of course a large part of the debate is over whether the current hard cap is actually doing anything. So the appeal to conservatism implied by "doing nothing" just pushes the question back.
NewLiberty
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June 24, 2015, 12:32:29 PM
 #27343

I suppose that all depends on the definition of "success".

My definition of success is perhaps modest to some, but it is still far away:

Bitcoin being the protocol and the coin of the internet realm.

If it achieves this, it could well become much more, but this is the success for which it is designed.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
macsga
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Strange, yet attractive.


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June 24, 2015, 01:20:57 PM
 #27344

I suppose that all depends on the definition of "success".

My definition of success is perhaps modest to some, but it is still far away:

Bitcoin being the protocol and the coin of the internet realm.

If it achieves this, it could well become much more, but this is the success for which it is designed.

Knowing your way of thinking, yes; it is a modest target for something that incorporates so many different things in just one package. Maybe the "beginning of success" would've been more appropriate. Smiley

thezerg
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June 24, 2015, 02:11:33 PM
 #27345

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-who-is-most-exposed-to-a-greek-default-2015-06-23

“The private sector “has almost no direct exposure to Greece anymore,” wrote strategists at J.P. Morgan Cazenove, in a Monday note urging clients to get back into German stocks.


So the whole 2011-2012 Greek loan restructuring was basically a strategy to move the bagholders from rich powerful bankers and investors into the hands of the general population (as taxed by their governments), wasn't it?

EDIT: the entire system is broken.  Let private lenders lend to eurozone countries at essentially no risk (that's moral hazard of bailouts).  Then bail out the country and the private lenders using public money because of political/social concepts like one unified europe. 

How about letting governments default on loans WITHOUT kicking them out of the eurozone.  How about a government bankruptcy -> elect a new govt, fire the top 10 central bankers and any other bankers the other central banks deem responsible and have a 5-10 year probationary period where their local central bank cannot give euro-creating loans.
sickpig
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June 24, 2015, 03:08:45 PM
 #27346

gavin has just posted a bip on the btc dev mailing list

  BIP: ??
  Title: Increase Maximum Block Size
  Author: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
  Status: Draft
  Type: Standards Track
  Created: 2015-06-22

https://github.com/gavinandresen/bips/blob/blocksize/bip-8MB.mediawiki


Update: gavin's BIP has been assigned number 101.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
hdbuck
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June 24, 2015, 03:24:12 PM
 #27347

gavin has just posted a bip on the btc dev mailing list

  BIP: ??
  Title: Increase Maximum Block Size
  Author: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
  Status: Draft
  Type: Standards Track
  Created: 2015-06-22

https://github.com/gavinandresen/bips/blob/blocksize/bip-8MB.mediawiki


Update: gavin's BIP has been assigned number 101.

lol as in "blocksize 101"? MIT get out of here! Cheesy
cypherdoc
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June 24, 2015, 03:27:15 PM
 #27348

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-who-is-most-exposed-to-a-greek-default-2015-06-23

“The private sector “has almost no direct exposure to Greece anymore,” wrote strategists at J.P. Morgan Cazenove, in a Monday note urging clients to get back into German stocks.


So the whole 2011-2012 Greek loan restructuring was basically a strategy to move the bagholders from rich powerful bankers and investors into the hands of the general population (as taxed by their governments), wasn't it?

EDIT: the entire system is broken.  Let private lenders lend to eurozone countries at essentially no risk (that's moral hazard of bailouts).  Then bail out the country and the private lenders using public money because of political/social concepts like one unified europe.  

How about letting governments default on loans WITHOUT kicking them out of the eurozone.  How about a government bankruptcy -> elect a new govt, fire the top 10 central bankers and any other bankers the other central banks deem responsible and have a 5-10 year probationary period where their local central bank cannot give euro-creating loans.


they're lying:

cypherdoc
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June 24, 2015, 03:31:58 PM
 #27349

gavin has just posted a bip on the btc dev mailing list

  BIP: ??
  Title: Increase Maximum Block Size
  Author: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
  Status: Draft
  Type: Standards Track
  Created: 2015-06-22

https://github.com/gavinandresen/bips/blob/blocksize/bip-8MB.mediawiki


Update: gavin's BIP has been assigned number 101.

when did that happen?  i asked Greg about it late last night and he said it had been assigned.  but it couldn't have been too much before that.  or did it occur after i asked?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3awomg/how_the_bitcoin_experiment_might_fail/csgt8ed
sickpig
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June 24, 2015, 03:36:22 PM
 #27350

gavin has just posted a bip on the btc dev mailing list

  BIP: ??
  Title: Increase Maximum Block Size
  Author: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
  Status: Draft
  Type: Standards Track
  Created: 2015-06-22

https://github.com/gavinandresen/bips/blob/blocksize/bip-8MB.mediawiki


Update: gavin's BIP has been assigned number 101.

when did that happen?  i asked Greg about it late last night and he said it had been assigned.  but it couldn't have been too much before that.  or did it occur after i asked?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3awomg/how_the_bitcoin_experiment_might_fail/csgt8ed

gavin's just sent an email on btc dev mailing list

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/009047.html

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
cypherdoc
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June 24, 2015, 03:37:08 PM
 #27351

oh my:

sickpig
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June 24, 2015, 03:39:38 PM
 #27352

(sorry for the OT)

if memory serves somewhere in the last few dozens of pages there was a debate
involving climate change,  I've just found this interesting article titled
"What's really warming the world"

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/




Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
NewLiberty
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June 24, 2015, 03:40:21 PM
 #27353

I suppose that all depends on the definition of "success".

My definition of success is perhaps modest to some, but it is still far away:

Bitcoin being the protocol and the coin of the internet realm.

If it achieves this, it could well become much more, but this is the success for which it is designed.

Knowing your way of thinking, yes; it is a modest target for something that incorporates so many different things in just one package. Maybe the "beginning of success" would've been more appropriate. Smiley

It merely scratches the surface of the capabilities, but achieving only this satisfies the Whitepaper and thus remains my criteria for success.

As a guiding principle for the project, doing anything that reduces this potential in order to achieve something other than this, would be against the spirit of Bitcoin.
Thus, those efforts could/should be a different project, or would otherwise naturally follow from the success of this one goal, which remains a long way off.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
NewLiberty
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June 24, 2015, 03:43:02 PM
 #27354

(sorry for the OT)

if memory serves somewhere in the last few dozens of pages there was a debate
involving climate change,  I've just found this interesting article titled
"What's really warming the world"

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/


There are other threads on this topic here already.  Why pollute this one?  Wink

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
sickpig
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June 24, 2015, 03:52:31 PM
 #27355

(sorry for the OT)

if memory serves somewhere in the last few dozens of pages there was a debate
involving climate change,  I've just found this interesting article titled
"What's really warming the world"

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/


There are other threads on this topic here already.  Why pollute this one?  Wink

You're absolutely right.

Again sorry for being off topic.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
sickpig
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June 24, 2015, 04:24:00 PM
 #27356

EU Banks Forced to Report Bitcoin-Linked Accounts Transacting Over €1,000

http://www.xbt.money/eu-banks-forced-to-report-bitcoin-linked-accounts-transacting-over-e1000/

Quote
An anonymous Dutch bank employee has revealed that major banks in the EU are applying new rules forcing banks to report, monitor or investigate accounts receiving or sending over €1,000 connected to bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
cypherdoc
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June 24, 2015, 04:28:52 PM
 #27357

Tsipras taking to Twitter!

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2015/06/24/equities-turn-red-as-greek-optimism-fades-tsipras-vents-on-twitter/
cypherdoc
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June 24, 2015, 04:36:13 PM
 #27358

another person who sees problems with block size voting.  i haven't analyzed the attack; just posting here from bitcoin-dev:

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 8:05 PM, William Madden <will.madden@novauri.com> wrote:

    Here are refutations of the approach in BIP-100 here:
    http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/BIP100-blocksizechangeproposal.pdf

    To recap BIP-100:

    1) Hard form to remove static 1MB block size limit
    2) Add new floating block size limit set to 1MB
    3) Historical 32MB message limit remains
    4) Hard form on testnet 9/1/2015
    5) Hard form on main 1/11/2016
    6) 1MB limit changed via one-way lock in upgrade with a 12,000 block
    threshold by 90% of blocks
    7) Limit increase or decrease may not exceed 2x in any one step
    Cool Miners vote by encoding 'BV'+BlockSizeRequestValue into coinbase
    scriptSig, e.g. "/BV8000000/" to vote for 8M.
    9) Votes are evaluated by dropping bottom 20% and top 20%, and then the
    most common floor (minimum) is chosen.

    8MB limits doubling just under every 2 years makes a static value grow
    in a predictable manner.

    BIP-100 makes a static value grow (or more importantly potentially
    shrink) in an unpredictable manner based on voting mechanics that are
    untested in this capacity in the bitcoin network.  Introducing a highly
    variable and untested dynamic into an already complex system is
    unnecessarily risky.

    For example, the largely arbitrary voting rules listed in 9 above can be
    gamed.  If I control pools or have affiliates involved in pools that
    mine slightly more than 20% of blocks, I could wait until block sizes
    are 10MB, and then suddenly vote "/BV5000000/" for 20% of blocks and
    "/BV5000001/" for the remaining 10%.  If others don't consistently vote
    for the same "/BV#/" value, vote too consistently and have their value
    thrown out as the top 20%, I could win the resize to half capacity
    "/BV5000001/" because it was the lowest repeated value not in the bottom
    20%.

    I could use this to force an exodus to my sidechain/alt coin, or to
    choke out the bitcoin network.  A first improvement would be to only let
    BIP-100 raise the cap and not lower it, but if I can think of a
    vulnerability off the top of my head, there will be others on the other
    side of the equation that have not been thought of.  Why bother
    introducing a rube goldberg machine like voting when a simple 8mb cap
    with predictable growth gets the job done, potentially permanently?

NewLiberty
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June 24, 2015, 04:57:51 PM
 #27359

another person who sees problems with block size voting.  i haven't analyzed the attack; just posting here from bitcoin-dev:

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 8:05 PM, William Madden <will.madden@novauri.com> wrote:

    Here are refutations of the approach in BIP-100 here:
    http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/BIP100-blocksizechangeproposal.pdf

    To recap BIP-100:

    1) Hard form to remove static 1MB block size limit
    2) Add new floating block size limit set to 1MB
    3) Historical 32MB message limit remains
    4) Hard form on testnet 9/1/2015
    5) Hard form on main 1/11/2016
    6) 1MB limit changed via one-way lock in upgrade with a 12,000 block
    threshold by 90% of blocks
    7) Limit increase or decrease may not exceed 2x in any one step
    Cool Miners vote by encoding 'BV'+BlockSizeRequestValue into coinbase
    scriptSig, e.g. "/BV8000000/" to vote for 8M.
    9) Votes are evaluated by dropping bottom 20% and top 20%, and then the
    most common floor (minimum) is chosen.

    8MB limits doubling just under every 2 years makes a static value grow
    in a predictable manner.

    BIP-100 makes a static value grow (or more importantly potentially
    shrink) in an unpredictable manner based on voting mechanics that are
    untested in this capacity in the bitcoin network.  Introducing a highly
    variable and untested dynamic into an already complex system is
    unnecessarily risky.

    For example, the largely arbitrary voting rules listed in 9 above can be
    gamed.  If I control pools or have affiliates involved in pools that
    mine slightly more than 20% of blocks, I could wait until block sizes
    are 10MB, and then suddenly vote "/BV5000000/" for 20% of blocks and
    "/BV5000001/" for the remaining 10%.  If others don't consistently vote
    for the same "/BV#/" value, vote too consistently and have their value
    thrown out as the top 20%, I could win the resize to half capacity
    "/BV5000001/" because it was the lowest repeated value not in the bottom
    20%.

    I could use this to force an exodus to my sidechain/alt coin, or to
    choke out the bitcoin network.  A first improvement would be to only let
    BIP-100 raise the cap and not lower it, but if I can think of a
    vulnerability off the top of my head, there will be others on the other
    side of the equation that have not been thought of.  Why bother
    introducing a rube goldberg machine like voting when a simple 8mb cap
    with predictable growth gets the job done, potentially permanently?



Is it meant to be humorous that voting is described as arbitrary when compared to a single person picking a number out of his head?

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Adrian-x
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June 24, 2015, 05:08:48 PM
 #27360

I've come to see a single core as being the single greatest threat to Bitcoin out of all of this. A better situation to me would be a bitcoin P2P network with several separately developed cores that adhere to a common set of rules. The upgrade path is then always put to a vote. Any one core could then propose a change simply by implementing it (with a rule that after x% of blocks back the change it becomes active).

Then if people like the change, more will move to that core. This in turn would cause the other core to adopt the change or lose their users, and that is how consensus is achieved. If a majority did not like the change, they would not move to that core, and the change would never be accepted.

At no point in this do any set of gatekeepers get to dictate terms. Since no core has a majority of users captured, change would always have to come through user acceptance and adoption, and developers would simply be proposers of options.

You just reinvented pegged side chains.
I think you're just starting to understand Bitcoin. No need to fork to SC's?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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