Bitcoin Forum
November 21, 2017, 08:29:50 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 1358 1359 1360 1361 1362 1363 1364 1365 1366 1367 1368 1369 1370 1371 1372 1373 1374 1375 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 1393 1394 1395 [1396] 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 1408 1409 1410 1411 1412 1413 1414 1415 1416 1417 1418 1419 1420 1421 1422 1423 1424 1425 1426 1427 1428 1429 1430 1431 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 1437 1438 1439 1440 1441 1442 1443 1444 1445 1446 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010636 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:09:22 PM
 #27901

You fundamentally do not understand how distributed P2P networks work if you believe that.

If you broadcast two different transactions at the exact same time, then there will be disagreement among peers over which transaction was first. Some of your peers would say transaction a was first and some would say transaction b was first.

In which case you've just broken the 3rd property of well formed transactions that I listed above (i.e. accepted by all of your peers).

In your example, it is easy to see that this transaction is not well formed, is at risk of being a double spend, and is thus not accepted until it confirms in a block.

That is how zero confirm transactions are proceeded today in a perfectly safe manner.

The only method to attack a well formed zero confirm transaction is to collude with a mining pool that agrees to include a transaction double spend that was not announced to the P2P network. Your chance of success is only as good as the miner's chance of finding the next block.

Very clear explanation, rocks. 

Odalv, stop, please!

OK, I agree with you ( I'm tired :-), and I believe readers are not stupid )
1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed
2. The more mining costs the more miners will mine.
3. The bigger blocks are the less spam.
4. ... another pearls :-)

actually, i have one last question.  if your simultaneous spending tx's were a viable attack, why aren't you rich by now?
1511252990
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511252990

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511252990
Reply with quote  #2

1511252990
Report to moderator
1511252990
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511252990

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511252990
Reply with quote  #2

1511252990
Report to moderator
Join ICO Now A blockchain platform for effective freelancing
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:13:25 PM
 #27902

You fundamentally do not understand how distributed P2P networks work if you believe that.

If you broadcast two different transactions at the exact same time, then there will be disagreement among peers over which transaction was first. Some of your peers would say transaction a was first and some would say transaction b was first.

In which case you've just broken the 3rd property of well formed transactions that I listed above (i.e. accepted by all of your peers).

In your example, it is easy to see that this transaction is not well formed, is at risk of being a double spend, and is thus not accepted until it confirms in a block.

That is how zero confirm transactions are proceeded today in a perfectly safe manner.

The only method to attack a well formed zero confirm transaction is to collude with a mining pool that agrees to include a transaction double spend that was not announced to the P2P network. Your chance of success is only as good as the miner's chance of finding the next block.

Very clear explanation, rocks. 

Odalv, stop, please!

OK, I agree with you ( I'm tired :-), and I believe readers are not stupid )
1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed
2. The more mining costs the more miners will mine.
3. The bigger blocks are the less spam.
4. ... another pearls :-)

actually, i have one last question.  if your simultaneous spending tx's were a viable attack, why aren't you rich by now?

Really did not realize till now that there are so many fools accepting ZCT. Thank you for your informations.
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1149


View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:17:28 PM
 #27903

I think tvbcof means to say Bitcoin wasn't ever going to be useful for point of sales. (I assume that means Bitcoin by itself.)

In the interest of not repeating old points, this is what Hearn has to say on this: https://medium.com/@octskyward/replace-by-fee-43edd9a1dd6d

Right.  I think the people pushing full-RBF are more interested in making on-chain Bitcoin transactions less useful for point-of-sales than the often-stated goal of allowing users to "unstick" stuck transactions.  Since we can "unstick" a TX in ways that are first-seen safe, why break a system (zero-confirm TXs) that many people currently enjoy (well unless you're of the ideology that Bitcoin should only be a settlement backbone)?    

...or unless your transaction can wait for some non-trivial amount of time to confirm to the level of reliability that is necessary for it.


I don't follow.  It sounds like you think it would be a good thing to make zero-confirm transactions less secure.  Is this true?

Zero-confirm transactions are totally insecure. Use it only if you are a gambling company.

Completely not true, and again there is a large bitcoin ecommerce industry that proves you wrong.

Receivers of well formed transactions (i.e. transactions where all inputs are already confirmed, include an appropriate fee, and which are accepted by all your P2P peers [meaning you did not receive any alternative broadcasts using the same inputs]) are very secure with today's P2P rules and easy to accept for nominal amounts.

full-RBF breaks this.

I'll broadcast 2 (or even 10) transactions to different nodes(and services) at same time  and you cannot know what transacion was FIRST.
I can make it harder if I'll brodcast transactions just after block is found ... or DDOS you during this time

You fundamentally do not understand how distributed P2P networks work if you believe that.

If you broadcast two different transactions at the exact same time, then there will be disagreement among peers over which transaction was first. Some of your peers would say transaction a was first and some would say transaction b was first.

In which case you've just broken the 3rd property of well formed transactions that I listed above (i.e. accepted by all of your peers).

In your example, it is easy to see that this transaction is not well formed, is at risk of being a double spend, and is thus not accepted until it confirms in a block.

That is how zero confirm transactions are proceeded today in a "safe enough" manner.

The only method to attack a well formed zero confirm transaction is to collude with a mining pool that agrees to include a transaction double spend that was not announced to the P2P network. Your chance of success is only as good as the miner's chance of finding the next block.

This is exactly what I think about you. You are spreading nonsense after nonsense. You are living in ideal/happy world where
 - there is not cheating
 - there are not governments like in china, russia ... (the one in USA are not using CIA, FBI .. to control citiziens)
 - there are not terrorists
 - only bitcoin happy community exists MtGox, Pirate40 ... :-)


So you have no counter argument to present or explanation on how to attack a well formed transaction beyond the one example I provided, and instead just bring tin foil hat nonsense to the table. Got it.

As I wrote.
1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed


And who here besides you has made the statement that zero confirm transactions are 100% secure, no one.

As Peter said they are shades of gray. Well formed zero confirm transactions are not absolute but pretty reliable, in the same manner that 1-confirm transactions are not absolute but even more reliable and so on.

It's only malformed zero confirm transactions that are explicitly not reliable, but as explained those are easy to spot on the P2P network (and yes even a P2P network with cheaters, terrorists, Russia and China)

You should be a consultant for Bitpay and Coinbase warning them of the dangers of ZCT and how they need to stop. I'm sure they will gladly benefit from your insights.  Roll Eyes
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:17:32 PM
 #27904

 Roll Eyes  thats 13000 unconf tx's

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:18:12 PM
 #27905

 Roll Eyes

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:19:49 PM
 #27906

 Roll Eyes

Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:20:40 PM
 #27907

1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed

No one is claiming that.  I'm claiming that:

   0-conf (+ RBF)   <   0-conf (as is)   <  1-conf   <   2-conf …

Where the symbol [ < ] means "less secure than."  Do you disagree with the above inequality?

If not, what is the benefit of purposely making 0-conf less secure?

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1149


View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
 #27908

Roll Eyes



It was BTCChina Pool that only processed 81KB of transactions. If I was a miner on them I'd move to someone else.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:22:04 PM
 #27909

You fundamentally do not understand how distributed P2P networks work if you believe that.

If you broadcast two different transactions at the exact same time, then there will be disagreement among peers over which transaction was first. Some of your peers would say transaction a was first and some would say transaction b was first.

In which case you've just broken the 3rd property of well formed transactions that I listed above (i.e. accepted by all of your peers).

In your example, it is easy to see that this transaction is not well formed, is at risk of being a double spend, and is thus not accepted until it confirms in a block.

That is how zero confirm transactions are proceeded today in a perfectly safe manner.

The only method to attack a well formed zero confirm transaction is to collude with a mining pool that agrees to include a transaction double spend that was not announced to the P2P network. Your chance of success is only as good as the miner's chance of finding the next block.

Very clear explanation, rocks. 

Odalv, stop, please!

OK, I agree with you ( I'm tired :-), and I believe readers are not stupid )
1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed
2. The more mining costs the more miners will mine.
3. The bigger blocks are the less spam.
4. ... another pearls :-)

actually, i have one last question.  if your simultaneous spending tx's were a viable attack, why aren't you rich by now?

Really did not realize till now that there are so many fools accepting ZCT. Thank you for your informations.

and even if you didn't realize this, there have probably been on the order of thousands who have tried and failed with your attack.

thanks for the non answer.
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:23:23 PM
 #27910

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:25:32 PM
 #27911

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:32:08 PM
 #27912

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:42:18 PM
 #27913

here is a little tidbit as to why full nodes might be failing during this stress test.  it makes sense:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3bmb5r/stress_test_in_full_effect/csnr4fi
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1149


View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:45:39 PM
 #27914

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

Have you heard of this little company called BitPay, you might want to Google them. They've accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013 without issue.

We are not discussing theoretical what-if scenarios here. This is real world use of ZCT and evidence Bitcoin functions good enough here for ecommerce.
 
But you've already ignored this, you either aren't even bothering to read replies and just screaming, or are incapable of rudimentary reading comprehension.
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:47:11 PM
 #27915

1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed

No one is claiming that.  I'm claiming that:

   0-conf (+ RBF)   <   0-conf (as is)   <  1-conf   <   2-conf …

Where the symbol [ < ] means "less secure than."  Do you disagree with the above inequality?

If not, what is the benefit of purposely making 0-conf less secure?

0-conf (+ RBF)  is as TOTALLY INSECURE as any 0-conf
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1149


View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:48:52 PM
 #27916

1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed

No one is claiming that.  I'm claiming that:

   0-conf (+ RBF)   <   0-conf (as is)   <  1-conf   <   2-conf …

Where the symbol [ < ] means "less secure than."  Do you disagree with the above inequality?

If not, what is the benefit of purposely making 0-conf less secure?

0-conf (+ RBF)  is as TOTALLY INSECURE as any 0-conf

And Peter, myself, cypher and others already stated this as the original argument that 0-conf(+RBF) are insecure. We are discussing today's 0-conf (as-is), which functions good enough in the real world.

You've started to behave like TBTP
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:55:15 PM
 #27917

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

Have you heard of this little company called BitPay, you might want to Google them. They've accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013 without issue.

We are not discussing theoretical what-if scenarios here. This is real world use of ZCT and evidence Bitcoin functions good enough here for ecommerce.
 
But you've already ignored this, you either aren't even bothering to read replies and just screaming, or are incapable of rudimentary reading comprehension.

BitPay is not "accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013" until you are a US citizen and they know who is your grandma. -> So they know who you are and they know  how to apply law.
Erdogan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 826


View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:57:08 PM
 #27918

1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed

No one is claiming that.  I'm claiming that:

   0-conf (+ RBF)   <   0-conf (as is)   <  1-conf   <   2-conf …

Where the symbol [ < ] means "less secure than."  Do you disagree with the above inequality?

If not, what is the benefit of purposely making 0-conf less secure?

The antifragility. We need all the problems we can get.

Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 09:58:52 PM
 #27919

BitPay is not "accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013" until you are a US citizen and they know who is your grandma. -> So they know who you are and they know  how to apply law.

I just added credit to a NameCheap account using BitPay.  The credit arrived, and I was able to use it to buy hosting, before the transaction confirmed.  I also recently bought a Starbucks card using Gyft/BitPay and was able to use the card before the transaction confirmed.  

EDIT: And I'm not from the US nor registered with BitPay (does BitPay ever know who the buyer is?).

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 30, 2015, 10:06:11 PM
 #27920

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.

you are one of those devs who actually helped me realize that most of what some of you guys say is complete bullshit, aka fabricated armchair logic.

when i realized this, it was liberating.
Pages: « 1 ... 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 1358 1359 1360 1361 1362 1363 1364 1365 1366 1367 1368 1369 1370 1371 1372 1373 1374 1375 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 1393 1394 1395 [1396] 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 1408 1409 1410 1411 1412 1413 1414 1415 1416 1417 1418 1419 1420 1421 1422 1423 1424 1425 1426 1427 1428 1429 1430 1431 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 1437 1438 1439 1440 1441 1442 1443 1444 1445 1446 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!