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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804020 times)
iCEBREAKER
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June 26, 2015, 01:14:28 AM
 #27501

Isn't the real pressing issue recently the discovery that it takes less than the cost of a Smart car to spam up the system for hours and hours?

The *initial* cost to fill blocks is low, but (assuming actual non-spam/noise demand exists) fee pressure will result in an upward price spiral for the attacker.

However, the more room available in the block, the less effective this free market self-correcting remedy/mechanism becomes.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
"If you don't want people to know you're a scumbag then don't be a scumbag." -- margaritahuyan
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BlindMayorBitcorn
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June 26, 2015, 01:19:15 AM
 #27502

Isn't the real pressing issue recently the discovery that it takes less than the cost of a Smart car to spam up the system for hours and hours?

The *initial* cost to fill blocks is low, but (assuming actual non-spam/noise demand exists) fee pressure will result in an upward price spiral for the attacker.

However, the more room available in the block, the less effective this free market self-correcting remedy/mechanism becomes.

So bigger blocks will make this worse?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
TPTB_need_war
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June 26, 2015, 01:31:19 AM
 #27503

The situation with bandwidth being affordable enough given the proposals on the table is a little more uncertain. The political climate now steers the debate on the price of internet bandwidth, that has ominous concerns as to the slow, fine grinding outcome. There's also reason to be more certain; alot of new and alternative delivery channels are set to go live in the next few years (numerous air/space based internet services, evolving meshnet tech, increased leverage of the cartel licensed spectrum). This can't be looked at any other way than a huge spike in bandwidth supply throughput.

Three times I have pointed out that you guys ignore statistical variance of the bandwidth at any particular node.

I feel I am talking to concrete.

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June 26, 2015, 01:32:52 AM
 #27504

Isn't the real pressing issue recently the discovery that it takes less than the cost of a Smart car to spam up the system for hours and hours?

The *initial* cost to fill blocks is low, but (assuming actual non-spam/noise demand exists) fee pressure will result in an upward price spiral for the attacker.

However, the more room available in the block, the less effective this free market self-correcting remedy/mechanism becomes.

So bigger blocks will make this worse?

Did you not read what he wrote.

BlindMayorBitcorn
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June 26, 2015, 01:35:38 AM
 #27505

Isn't the real pressing issue recently the discovery that it takes less than the cost of a Smart car to spam up the system for hours and hours?

The *initial* cost to fill blocks is low, but (assuming actual non-spam/noise demand exists) fee pressure will result in an upward price spiral for the attacker.

However, the more room available in the block, the less effective this free market self-correcting remedy/mechanism becomes.


So bigger blocks will make this worse?

Did you not read what he wrote.

I read it like this.

Who are you?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
cypherdoc
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June 26, 2015, 02:45:06 AM
 #27506

Isn't the real pressing issue recently the discovery that it takes less than the cost of a Smart car to spam up the system for hours and hours?

The *initial* cost to fill blocks is low, but (assuming actual non-spam/noise demand exists) fee pressure will result in an upward price spiral for the attacker.

However, the more room available in the block, the less effective this free market self-correcting remedy/mechanism becomes.

such shallow, naive economic thinking.
cypherdoc
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June 26, 2015, 03:42:56 AM
 #27507

Heh, the Gavinistas are having a very bad day week.   Cool

First, Frap.doc was put upon to explain...
Actually it's been a bad 18 months and counting for Mr. 'bitcoin up' fap.doc.

OK sure, but the recent one-two wombo combo of Gavin declaring

A. "the financial crisis is over"

and

B. "The sky will not fall if the block size stays at 1MB"

can't be easy for poor old Doctor Frappy to explain away with his usual hand-waving assclown routine.

By ignoring gainsaying and insulting the expertise of Nick Szaboshi, Adam Bakomoto, Bram Cohen, and ALL THE CORE DEVS, he's really painted himself into a corner.   Cheesy

iCEBlow continues to be lost.

the harder he flaps his lips for Blockstream the worse Monero gets.  his thuggery knows no bounds.  but the harder he thugs for SC's, the faster Monero falls.  and he has no idea why.

meanwhile:

cypherdoc
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June 26, 2015, 03:46:32 AM
 #27508

this is interesting.

maybe a job for 21 Inc's embedded chips for negotiating right of way:

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-two-rival-self-driving-cars-have-close-call-in-california-2015-6
rocks
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June 26, 2015, 04:04:42 AM
 #27509

The way to generate resiliency for Bitcoin is to get to the point that each block generates $10M in fees.

Today each block generates around $4,500 in fees on average.

That is not resilient, that is weak and easy for any state to attack.

This idea that using fee pressure on a low # of transactions is a way to get to high value blocks from fees is absurd. The way to get to high value blocks is tons of transactions paying minimum fees.

Agree with the first 3 sentences, but only in a superficial way.  The fourth is just more absurd, Frappuccino Doc-esque bloviating.

As fee pressure rises, "attacking" (IE filling up) blocks becomes more expensive.  An attacker would have to pay higher fees than anyone else to stop tx propagation.  And PT's replace-by-fee makes that already unworkable strategy obsolete.

Your naive $4.5k/block figure illustrates the fact GavinCoin won't fix this so-called problem; 20 (or eight) times $4.5k is still nothing to any semi-resourceful attacker (much less TLA national statists).

The only way to densely pack "tons of transactions paying minimum fees" into the extremely scarce resource of the blockchain is to use LN/SC/alt/off-chain mechanisms to aggregate payments and settle on the MotherChain.  Even on a cluster of 24-core Xeons, blockchain tech cannot verify tx fast enough to *DIRECTLY* compete with centralized/specialized Visa-scale infrastructure.

What is so boring about this is how none of you one the 1MB side ever say anything factual and instead constantly misrepresent the facts (i.e. lie).

Gavin's proposed change is not $4.5k * 8, instead it is $4.5k * 8 * 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2 = $36.8M in fees. And that is for one block, it works out to $1B per day in fees. What this means is if bitcoin scales to the point that it regularly fills 8GB blocks, then there is a $1B/day in fees to pay for the network.

As others have already noted,

Quote
Bitcoin's value comes from its decentralization, not low tx tees. If u don't value that, centralized systems can meet ur needs

And as others have constantly noted, but you have ignored, is decentralization comes from miners. The P2P network does not represent the level of decentralization, independent miners do. Today we have tens of thousand of independent miners. If fees pay $1B/day we will have even more.
Grand_Voyageur
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June 26, 2015, 04:13:20 AM
 #27510

this is interesting.

maybe a job for 21 Inc's embedded chips for negotiating right of way:

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-two-rival-self-driving-cars-have-close-call-in-california-2015-6

It made me think if any of this rival groups gave a thought to common interoperability concepts before. A 2 way data communication to alert a preceding autonomous vehicle of another incoming one in the fast lane could be really useful. Even more if the preceding one could let the fast incoming vehicle of the need to change lane due to a obstruction...thus forcing the latter to slow down to allow such evasive manouvering.

███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
█   ⚂⚄⚀⚃⚅⚁    ██  d a d i c e  ██    Next Generation Dice Game
• Low 1% house edge. • Provably Fair.  
███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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June 26, 2015, 04:13:44 AM
 #27511

Isn't the real pressing issue recently the discovery that it takes less than the cost of a Smart car to spam up the system for hours and hours?

The *initial* cost to fill blocks is low, but (assuming actual non-spam/noise demand exists) fee pressure will result in an upward price spiral for the attacker.

However, the more room available in the block, the less effective this free market self-correcting remedy/mechanism becomes.

such shallow, naive economic thinking.

Please elaborate and provide (if available) evidence for this assertion characterization.

Or, just go back to using words you apparently do not know the definition of, like "thuggish."

AFAIK I have not robbed and/or murdered any travelers (lately  Wink).  As for Kali worship, [*cough*] no comment.   Cheesy



BRB, need to pick up turban from dry cleaners...

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
iCEBREAKER
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June 26, 2015, 04:37:54 AM
 #27512

the recent one-two wombo combo of Gavin declaring

A. "the financial crisis is over"

and

B. "The sky will not fall if the block size stays at 1MB"

can't be easy for poor old Doctor Frappy to explain away with his usual hand-waving assclown routine.

By ignoring gainsaying and insulting the expertise of Nick Szaboshi, Adam Bakomoto, Bram Cohen, and ALL THE CORE DEVS, he's really painted himself into a corner.   Cheesy

iCEBlow continues to be lost.

the harder he flaps his lips for Blockstream the worse Monero gets.  his thuggery knows no bounds.  but the harder he thugs for SC's, the faster Monero falls.  and he has no idea why.

meanwhile:

[Cherry_Picked.gif]

How many times in this thread alone has the fallacy of cherry picking ranges to 'prooove' some larger point been debunked?  10?  100?  I've lost count!   Roll Eyes

Your hypocrisy is boundless.  After pimping Bitcoin as Gold 2.0 and acting as a shill for HashFast, you have the audacity to pick on poor little Monero?

If you recall, I was on the fence (leaning against) SCs for quite a long time.  But unlike you I possess an open mind, free from the ossification of early onset senility and elder rage, which is capable of learning new things.  New things such as the Cryptonote protocol, which incorporates the 'blind signatures' invented by Dr. Chaum in the form of ring signatures plus stealth addresses.  Of course that was the plan all along, which you would know if you were remotely worthy of the 'cypher' adjective in your screen name.

XMR is very stable BTW.  And in terms of UX, is where BTC was four years ago (IE on the cusp of breaking out of the nerdosphere into far wider demographics).

TPTB and you are brothers from different mothers.  Newsletter writing crank?  Check!  Endless moaning about doooom and gloooom?  Double check!

Spurned silverbug?  Triple check!  Resent GMax for being the smartest cryptogeek codemonkey in the room?  Quadruple check!   Smiley

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
TPTB_need_war
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June 26, 2015, 05:02:34 AM
 #27513

TPTB and you are brothers from different mothers.

Resent GMax for being the smartest cryptogeek codemonkey in the room

We'll see about that soon...

In the meantime, it would front load my future ROTFLMAO, if you (not others who want to keep their shirts) buy moar XMR.

Wexlike
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June 26, 2015, 07:27:26 AM
 #27514

Heh, the Gavinistas are having a very bad day week.   Cool

First, Frap.doc was put upon to explain...
Actually it's been a bad 18 months and counting for Mr. 'bitcoin up' fap.doc.

OK sure, but the recent one-two wombo combo of Gavin declaring

A. "the financial crisis is over"

and

B. "The sky will not fall if the block size stays at 1MB"

can't be easy for poor old Doctor Frappy to explain away with his usual hand-waving assclown routine.

By ignoring gainsaying and insulting the expertise of Nick Szaboshi, Adam Bakomoto, Bram Cohen, and ALL THE CORE DEVS, he's really painted himself into a corner.   Cheesy

iCEBlow continues to be lost.

the harder he flaps his lips for Blockstream the worse Monero gets.  his thuggery knows no bounds.  but the harder he thugs for SC's, the faster Monero falls.  and he has no idea why.

meanwhile:

*pic*

I don't think it's useful to post a chart of an altcoin, that has no blocksize limit, in this argument. Smiley
BlindMayorBitcorn
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June 26, 2015, 08:34:06 AM
 #27515

Isn't the real pressing issue recently the discovery that it takes less than the cost of a Smart car to spam up the system for hours and hours?

I just got back, but



Edit: I don't see how any amount of money would ever be too much to deter bad actors from shitting on our parade for sport. Does blocksize even address this at all?

Lots of venom in this thread lately. Embarrassed

I think bigger blocks will just make shit parades more expensive to throw?




The way to generate resiliency for Bitcoin is to get to the point that each block generates $10M in fees.

Today each block generates around $4,500 in fees on average.

That is not resilient, that is weak and easy for any state to attack.

This idea that using fee pressure on a low # of transactions is a way to get to high value blocks from fees is absurd. The way to get to high value blocks is tons of transactions paying minimum fees.


Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
cypherdoc
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June 26, 2015, 09:24:05 AM
 #27516

You see iCEBLow, there is nothing to fear:

https://www.coinprices.io/articles/the-hard-fork-no-need-to-worry-bitcoin-upgrades-harness-free-market-consensus

Now a prolonged 1MB spam attack...  
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June 26, 2015, 11:28:30 AM
 #27517

massive losses on the CHINEXT composite, 8.3% at the close.

https://www.google.com/finance?q=CHINEXT+COMPOSITE&ei=2tSMVdmvLIu2iALN_57IAQ

http://www.wsobserver.com/china-stocks-suffer-biggest-one-day-loss-in-5-months-soufun-holdings-ltd-nysesfun-ctrip-com-international-ltd-adr-nasdaqctrp-500-com-ltd-nysewbai/7220618/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-25/chinese-equity-futures-tumble-ahead-open-morgan-stanely-warns-dont-buy-dip-0
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June 26, 2015, 11:54:27 AM
 #27518


Pruden and sidhujag, you need to be afraid.
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June 26, 2015, 12:24:20 PM
 #27519

Fascinating article about investor psychology and dependence on state intervention in Stock markets:

“The tone from the state media is particularly helpful to retail investors like me, as I have a job to do and am pretty busy,” said Yao, 35. “China’s stock market is really different from other countries. The government surely has some measures to control the movement.”

http://bloom.bg/1Nl6Wzh

The US is surely no different.
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June 26, 2015, 12:33:34 PM
 #27520

Who continues to be so stupid in bailing these guys out?

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