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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808740 times)
Zarathustra
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June 17, 2015, 08:06:10 AM
 #26701

check out of the gold collapse

I told you all upthread there would likely be a bounce this June in both gold and BTC but the final lows are still coming.

I continue (via Armstrong) to predict every price move. Yet I (and he) get no acknowledgement.

What a shame! The feet of the prophets are to be kissed!

He is still pissed off because I don't buy into his "we are going back to cavemen" theory of economics.


No. This species is going forward; leaving your collectivist behavior behind. Crypto based Anonymity is not a tool to maintain collectivism; it will destroy collectivism and society and that will lead to the rebirth of the selfsufficient community. Not nice for you the collectivsts, but inevitable. Cheesy

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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TPTB_need_war
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June 17, 2015, 08:08:53 AM
 #26702

check out of the gold collapse

I told you all upthread there would likely be a bounce this June in both gold and BTC but the final lows are still coming.

I continue (via Armstrong) to predict every price move. Yet I (and he) get no acknowledgement.

What a shame! The feet of the prophets are to be kissed!

He is still pissed off because I don't buy into his "we are going back to cavemen" theory of economics.


No. This species is going forward; leaving your collectivist behavior behind. Crypto based Anonymity is not a tool to maintain collectivism; it will destroy collectivism and society and that will lead to the rebirth of the selfsufficient community. Not nice for you the collectivsts, but inevitable. Cheesy

Well then take solace in that I am working for you then because I (as AnonyMint) have been pushing for greater anonymity since 2013. And I am pushing for it not just in cryptocoins but also on the entire internet and my plans are much broader in scope than just cryptocoins.

TPTB_need_war
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June 17, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
 #26703

...
Btw, just because you want to stay only in BTC, doesn't mean others won't want to speculate on higher ROI and the potential to jump back in time and front run your early investment in BTC. And they might be correct. One thing you have to contemplate is that an altcoin could be structured to benefit from the pegged side chain BTC investment it (yes an altcoin that is also a pegged side chain) and offer a higher ROI on its own coin. You might assert you'd opt for the pegged side chain clone that eliminated the side coin atribute, but market dynamics may not play nicely with your desire.

I try to never play in a game where other's have superior info, though sometimes it's not avoidable.  I don't play the various mainstream markets for this reason.  I'm also lazy.  It's funny and half-true that I don't really care that much about ROI, and if someone jumps out and back in again and does better than me, more power to them.  They have my respect for having balls, skill, and luck.

I've timed various things about as perfectly as possible (so far), but it has been almost complete luck and in a funny way that I cannot put my finger on, I think it has been a result of fairly deliberately not trying very hard to maximize my ROI and such.  I seem to be uniquely bad at predicting price behaviors on less than year long intervals.

Sometimes I've had myself half-convinced that if I had to choose between Bitcoin achieving something substantive for humanity and Bitcoin making me rich, I'd choose the former.  Sometimes not.  Since I've made some money already I'm pretty sure that I will put a fairly significant emphasis on furthering other goals going forward.  At this point I see the goals of making money and having Bitcoin (or a follow-on) being worthwhile as being fairly aligned but this is just and accident of fate.

This is the why 90% slow burn into the NWO is so assured, because most people don't act to save themselves until it is too late. They actively avoid pain if the losses to society are only 10% on each iteration:

nwo future prosperity = 0.90 ^ n, where n is time elapsed and 1 is maximum prosperity and 0 is total destruction of the human race.

Also people get lulled to sleep by their past success in following the herd.

My rebuttal is talk to some people whose grandparents lost everything in the Great Depression because they trusted society to not go F.U.B.A.R. Realize that every 79 years or so, society does default and reset.

I do firmly believe your Bitcoin will be expropriated before 2032 (most likely before 2024), unless you've cashed out to something more protective BEFORE THE NSA HAS BEEN TRACKING IT. Gold will only work if you plan to never be able to cash it nor spend it, i.e. it won't work.

I do believe there will be clawbacks and they come asking what you did with the Bitcoin you sold back in the day. And they will use any excuse to expropriate everything they can find. The only wealth that is going to survive what is coming is that which can't be found.

---

I also do anticipate that sidechains will be 'half-alt' in most situations.  I anticipate that the maintainers of them will generally have their own inflation/deflation schemes among other things.  I'd anticipate (and look forward to) situations where an sidecoin had sort of a 'buffered peg' such that they could play with the circulation but not so fast that they could rip people off.  As long as things are what Peter Todd characterizes as a 'glass bank', I'm cool with that.

I think that some of my conceptions of sidechains are at significant variance to what Back is thinking and I say that in part because he is anticipating a very much smaller number of sidechains that I am anticipating. That's fine with me...and probably would be with Back as well I'm guessing.  It's possible to have an unknown future but be pretty confident that whatever it is will be better than the status quo.

If I did a pegged side chain with its own coin, that coin would be entirely orthogonal to the BTC coins in the chain. I wouldn't want the BTC holders to feel threatened in any way. They bring greater network effects to the coin, thus indirectly driving up the value of the coin used to pay miners with debasement.

Btw, in my coin's design the miners can not be paid with transaction fees that originate from prior balances because this is a source of censorship of transactions (even if the inputs are blinded by a mix because one blacklisted input in the mix could cause censorship of the entire mix). My design is 100% censorship free (no heuristic arguments, rather 100% provable).

Shit I am giving away too much of my design. I better STFU.

You will end up buying my coin if I create it, because it will blow your fucking mind or I mean to say the design will make your jaw drop to the floor and you will say, "I must buy this".

Zarathustra
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June 17, 2015, 09:09:59 AM
 #26704

But just step back for a moment and ask yourself who in the hell had the power to do 9/11?

Anyone who took some flying lessons?  Because pilots were trained to follow a terrorist's orders, similarly to how bank tellers today are told "no heroics, just give a robber the cash; we'll round him up eventually".  

And FYI the idea literally was written into a Tom Clancy novel years before (although IIRC it was Japan that attacked) so the terrorists did not even need to be creative.

That same novel put forth the idea of combined physical/economic warfare as well -- crash the stock market just before you attack.

Chomsky's confrontation with a truther idiot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i9ra-i6Knc

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
Zarathustra
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June 17, 2015, 09:16:01 AM
 #26705

check out of the gold collapse

I told you all upthread there would likely be a bounce this June in both gold and BTC but the final lows are still coming.

I continue (via Armstrong) to predict every price move. Yet I (and he) get no acknowledgement.

What a shame! The feet of the prophets are to be kissed!

He is still pissed off because I don't buy into his "we are going back to cavemen" theory of economics.


No. This species is going forward; leaving your collectivist behavior behind. Crypto based Anonymity is not a tool to maintain collectivism; it will destroy collectivism and society and that will lead to the rebirth of the selfsufficient community. Not nice for you the collectivsts, but inevitable. Cheesy

Well then take solace in that I am working for you then because I (as AnonyMint) have been pushing for greater anonymity since 2013. And I am pushing for it not just in cryptocoins but also on the entire internet and my plans are much broader in scope than just cryptocoins.

Wow, on the entire internet?! That's really impressive!

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
Asrael999
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June 17, 2015, 09:18:29 AM
 #26706

But just step back for a moment and ask yourself who in the hell had the power to do 9/11?

Anyone who took some flying lessons?  Because pilots were trained to follow a terrorist's orders, similarly to how bank tellers today are told "no heroics, just give a robber the cash; we'll round him up eventually".  

And FYI the idea literally was written into a Tom Clancy novel years before (although IIRC it was Japan that attacked) so the terrorists did not even need to be creative.

That same novel put forth the idea of combined physical/economic warfare as well -- crash the stock market just before you attack.

Chomsky's confrontation with a truther idiot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i9ra-i6Knc

note the oil price move in the last few months, and compare to movements before the fall of the USSR (80-86 for the big move - 3yrs more for the impact to cripple)
NewLiberty
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June 17, 2015, 09:58:44 AM
 #26707

i smell DOOM for Blockstream, gmax, and Adam:

“We have really good communication with Gavin Andresen on this issue."
Doom is not the ideal outcome.

It would likely mean any positive contributions they could make would be squandered.

well, they could go BK; in a year or so.  

mining really is the last piece to Gavin's puzzle and that quote is telling.  everyone else in the space clearly has an interest in seeing tx growth; users, merchants, exchanges.  and they have expressed themselves as such.  the only one's that were questionable were the miners; esp the big Chinese one's that had spoken up a couple of weeks ago.  now that they seem to be clearly onboard with the Big Picture, which Blockstream clearly isn't, the only thing remaining is just exactly how much we are going to increase the block size.  since 8MB is completely fine with them, that should be the starting point.  we definitely should build in an automatic increase.

the only part that makes me pause is this voting mechanism for block size expansion which was part of Jeff's proposal.  but overall, quite positive.

JGarzik's proposal:
http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/BIP100-blocksizechangeproposal.pdf
Wherein the central authority of developers to set block size is passed to the miners who vote (with the highs and lows dropped).

This seems to solve the issue of figuring out the right size a bit better than one person picking an arbitrary number.

It also moves the ball forward in automating the governance of the protocol.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
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ssmc2
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June 17, 2015, 01:30:20 PM
 #26708

check out of the gold collapse

I told you all upthread there would likely be a bounce this June in both gold and BTC but the final lows are still coming.

I continue (via Armstrong) to predict every price move. Yet I (and he) get no acknowledgement.

What a shame! The feet of the prophets are to be kissed!

He is still pissed off because I don't buy into his "we are going back to cavemen" theory of economics.


No. This species is going forward; leaving your collectivist behavior behind. Crypto based Anonymity is not a tool to maintain collectivism; it will destroy collectivism and society and that will lead to the rebirth of the selfsufficient community. Not nice for you the collectivsts, but inevitable. Cheesy

Well then take solace in that I am working for you then because I (as AnonyMint) have been pushing for greater anonymity since 2013. And I am pushing for it not just in cryptocoins but also on the entire internet and my plans are much broader in scope than just cryptocoins.

Wow, on the entire internet?! That's really impressive!

He's that good.
TPTB_need_war
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June 17, 2015, 01:31:09 PM
 #26709

But just step back for a moment and ask yourself who in the hell had the power to do 9/11?

Anyone who took some flying lessons?  Because pilots were trained to follow a terrorist's orders, similarly to how bank tellers today are told "no heroics, just give a robber the cash; we'll round him up eventually".  

And FYI the idea literally was written into a Tom Clancy novel years before (although IIRC it was Japan that attacked) so the terrorists did not even need to be creative.

That same novel put forth the idea of combined physical/economic warfare as well -- crash the stock market just before you attack.

Chomsky's confrontation with a truther idiot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i9ra-i6Knc

Btw, I debated Chomsky in email several years ago before my Multiple Sclerosis symptoms had become severe (meaning I was more mentally complete ... I'm sure you notice my prose is often missing words and this is due to fatigue and trying to write too much with this illness).

I have all the copies of the debate. Maybe I will publish them in this forum someday if I can justify the downtime to dig them up (I did publish already a small portion at goldwetrust.up-with.com).

I remember we got off into existential philosophy and what could and could not be proven. My appraisal of the outcome is it was a draw. He is extremely smart (impressively so at his advanced age) but he did meet his match with me (which is why I think he was compelled to debate me and also because I did show him respect and appreciation). So that will give you some clue into my logic capabilities. The computer and I were destined to be one since I think like one.

Btw, Chomsky is a gatekeeper for the establishment (perhaps unwittingly). That doesn't mean I dislike him. He was very cordial, empathic, and willing to debate an unknown person.

I don't have time to watch that video above, but I am quite sure he can not win a debate against me about 9/11 because I will focus only on the irrefutable physical science arguments and not the circumstantial innuendo that most Truthers blabber.

An example of circumstantial arguments is, "why was the steel rushed off to China for melting and under such intense security?". I believe that data point adds to the probability of understanding, but I wouldn't use it in debate because someone could attack me on that point. Another example, "why did Donald Rumsfeld announce that $3 trillion was missing from the DoD budget on the eve of 9/11 and the next day all of the documents and investigators were destroyed by whatever hit the Pentagon and just that one section of the Pentagon".

Or another one, "why were all of Armstrong's voice recordings of the manipulations the banksters were doing in the markets destroyed at the WTC, as admitted in a letter to Armstrong from the SEC?".

So many circumstantial points taken together form a nexus of improbability of an unplanned event.

But I don't need to revert to those arguments because most people can't correlate holistic probabilities (and debaters use this disingenuously and/or unwittingly). They study issues piece-meal only. This is also why they can't assess the holistic design failure of Bitcoin.

TPTB_need_war
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June 17, 2015, 01:55:29 PM
 #26710

check out of the gold collapse

I told you all upthread there would likely be a bounce this June in both gold and BTC but the final lows are still coming.

I continue (via Armstrong) to predict every price move. Yet I (and he) get no acknowledgement.

What a shame! The feet of the prophets are to be kissed!

He is still pissed off because I don't buy into his "we are going back to cavemen" theory of economics.


No. This species is going forward; leaving your collectivist behavior behind. Crypto based Anonymity is not a tool to maintain collectivism; it will destroy collectivism and society and that will lead to the rebirth of the selfsufficient community. Not nice for you the collectivsts, but inevitable. Cheesy

Well then take solace in that I am working for you then because I (as AnonyMint) have been pushing for greater anonymity since 2013. And I am pushing for it not just in cryptocoins but also on the entire internet and my plans are much broader in scope than just cryptocoins.

Wow, on the entire internet?! That's really impressive!

He's that good.

It is not me. It is you all are that good but you don't know how to organize yourselves except to be corralled by the banksters (even you don't know it). The only way to accomplish that is get a lot of capital focused on solving these problems. Right now all your capital is going to the utility and hardware companies. It is not being focused where it can actually form an ecosystem. The Bitcoin ecosystem is dominated by bankster whoreshipping venture capital (and your individual capital gets siphoned off by PoW and the shitcoins).

This is the reason you would buy my coin, because there will be an ecosystem that as a geek you will be damn proud of. And it will be your ecosystem, not mine. I am just here as the seed (who needs to as quickly as possibly set things on an open-source auto-pilot and get out of the way), and will hopefully be rewarded for my efforts so I can retire comfortably.

Somebody has to be crazy enough to try. Then the others will follow once they see it working.

thezerg
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June 17, 2015, 02:06:52 PM
 #26711

For the expansionist here, what do you think?  Should we compromise at 8MB?  Personally I am ok with that, esp if an automatic periodic increase is baked in.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114577/chinese-mining-pools-propose-alternative-8-mb-block-size

EDIT: page 1337!  gotta have something substantive on it :-)

i'm ok with it with the automatic expansion.  but i'm alittle concerned with the miner voting for expansion.  why just them and is voting really the way we want to go?

Yes the BIP 100 voting scheme seems a bit under developed at this point.  The problem is that POW mining is the only way to prove independent existence, this is the basis of distributed consensus -- you can easily create a bunch of fake AWS "full" nodes for example -- 1000 nodes just forward requests to a single full node.  And if you could solve the voting problem without using mining, you could use that solution to remove mining from consensus (i.e. from bitcoin).

One way to prove unique nodes is to require that every node use asymmetric functions to encode the data to be stored, with uniquifying "salt".  This is essentially hashing but backwards.

For example, every node chooses a unique 256bit identifier (salt).  Then for every 8 or 16 bits of blockchain data Di, it finds and stores Xi such that Hash(Xi + identifier + i) = Di (where "+" means "append").

This search happens continually as the blockchain is being created.

Now a client can validate the uniqueness of storage by another node by requesting random chunks of data from the node.  The node responds with its ID and Xi0-i1.  The client can then quickly validate this by running the hash function and comparing the result to its own blockchain.

A "full" node (one that is calculating this data and storing it as the blockchain is created) will be able to respond quickly where one that is not doing so will have to calculate the reverse hash function (essentially a random search like mining but easier because only 8 or 16 bits) on the fly.

Once you have this "proof of storage" you might be able to turn it into allowing node voting...

So someone rents hard disk space on Amazon AWS during the voting period and becomes many unique entities.

You were correct that there is no way to prove one computer, one vote. PoW doesn't work by voting. It works by random chance. The only problem PoW solves is consensus on ordering.

Ah I grow weary in this thread.

U repeated exactly what I said.  And then didn't read my partial soln

Ahem, try reading again. You proposed proof-of-storage as a potential means to voting.

Prior proof-of-storage (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310323.0) "wastes" storage like POW "wastes" CPU.  It proves that storage exists.  The proposal above proves that a unique copy of the blockchain is stored somewhere.  This is much more valuable than proof that storage exists so it is perhaps better named proof-of-full-node.  The reason you can't just rent hard disk space on AWS to fake this out is because you need to calculate the inverse hash for every byte of the blockchain, salted by your node id.  The designer can choose how hard this is so it could take (say) a normal computer 6 months to do the entire 5 year blockchain. So the proof of storage is backed by POW which makes it hard to calculate the values on-the-fly.  You could rent a bunch of AWS storage AND separately rent a supercomputer to individually calculate the hash-1 blockchain data, storing the result into AWS.  But if you do that, you actually HAVE N individual copies of the blockchain so would receive N votes.

Because I am basically arguing with myself here I will now criticize the approach's limitations.  It is possible that modifications to this approach could solve them:

1. "Difficulty" is chosen in advance, not dynamically.  This is problematic as processing power increases.
2. It takes a long time for a new node to become a provably "full" node.  Of course, nodes could become non-provably "full" nodes just by downloading the blockchain as is done today, and nodes could advertise themselves as partly provable, receiving a partial vote...
3. The provable blockchain could be constructed by many CPUs running in parallel... is this a problem?  If so we could force serialization by salting Xi with Xi-1.
4. The system functions as a real-time interactive proof.  There is no way store a historical proof that a node was full on date D.  Bitcoin-style POW+blockchain does store historical proof of computation power.
TPTB_need_war
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June 17, 2015, 02:10:46 PM
 #26712

i smell DOOM for Blockstream, gmax, and Adam:

“We have really good communication with Gavin Andresen on this issue."
Doom is not the ideal outcome.

It would likely mean any positive contributions they could make would be squandered.

well, they could go BK; in a year or so.  

mining really is the last piece to Gavin's puzzle and that quote is telling.  everyone else in the space clearly has an interest in seeing tx growth; users, merchants, exchanges.  and they have expressed themselves as such.  the only one's that were questionable were the miners; esp the big Chinese one's that had spoken up a couple of weeks ago.  now that they seem to be clearly onboard with the Big Picture, which Blockstream clearly isn't, the only thing remaining is just exactly how much we are going to increase the block size.  since 8MB is completely fine with them, that should be the starting point.  we definitely should build in an automatic increase.

the only part that makes me pause is this voting mechanism for block size expansion which was part of Jeff's proposal.  but overall, quite positive.

JGarzik's proposal:
http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/BIP100-blocksizechangeproposal.pdf
Wherein the central authority of developers to set block size is passed to the miners who vote (with the highs and lows dropped).

This seems to solve the issue of figuring out the right size a bit better than one person picking an arbitrary number.

It also moves the ball forward in automating the governance of the protocol.

As soon as you introduce voting to Bitcoin, you've entirely lost to the banksters. Any one who doesn't realize democracy is a lie, is really a sheep. I already explained the Logic of Collective Action is a power vacuum. It is amazes me that smart people can't understand this holistically.

A power vacuum is an entropic void that requires a leader. But the only way to lead collective action is to promise everything and steal everything (if you don't, someone else will and they will amass more power). The logic on that is explained in more detail else where.

I grow weary. Just go ahead to your NWO outcome. Some of us others will fork away and survive to continue the human race. <bankster illogic>Perhaps it is better you all continue with your myopia and cull yourselves, so we can clean up the gene pool.</bankster illogic>

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June 17, 2015, 02:14:33 PM
 #26713

Does this post show up for anyone else?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3a5f1v/mike_hearn_on_those_who_want_all_scaling_to_be/cs9jehy

I think it might have been censored.
dEBRUYNE
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June 17, 2015, 02:17:53 PM
 #26714

Does this post show up for anyone else?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3a5f1v/mike_hearn_on_those_who_want_all_scaling_to_be/cs9jehy

I think it might have been censored.

Shows up just fine here.

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
TPTB_need_war
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June 17, 2015, 02:20:59 PM
 #26715

For the expansionist here, what do you think?  Should we compromise at 8MB?  Personally I am ok with that, esp if an automatic periodic increase is baked in.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114577/chinese-mining-pools-propose-alternative-8-mb-block-size

EDIT: page 1337!  gotta have something substantive on it :-)

i'm ok with it with the automatic expansion.  but i'm alittle concerned with the miner voting for expansion.  why just them and is voting really the way we want to go?

Yes the BIP 100 voting scheme seems a bit under developed at this point.  The problem is that POW mining is the only way to prove independent existence, this is the basis of distributed consensus -- you can easily create a bunch of fake AWS "full" nodes for example -- 1000 nodes just forward requests to a single full node.  And if you could solve the voting problem without using mining, you could use that solution to remove mining from consensus (i.e. from bitcoin).

One way to prove unique nodes is to require that every node use asymmetric functions to encode the data to be stored, with uniquifying "salt".  This is essentially hashing but backwards.

For example, every node chooses a unique 256bit identifier (salt).  Then for every 8 or 16 bits of blockchain data Di, it finds and stores Xi such that Hash(Xi + identifier + i) = Di (where "+" means "append").

This search happens continually as the blockchain is being created.

Now a client can validate the uniqueness of storage by another node by requesting random chunks of data from the node.  The node responds with its ID and Xi0-i1.  The client can then quickly validate this by running the hash function and comparing the result to its own blockchain.

A "full" node (one that is calculating this data and storing it as the blockchain is created) will be able to respond quickly where one that is not doing so will have to calculate the reverse hash function (essentially a random search like mining but easier because only 8 or 16 bits) on the fly.

Once you have this "proof of storage" you might be able to turn it into allowing node voting...

So someone rents hard disk space on Amazon AWS during the voting period and becomes many unique entities.

You were correct that there is no way to prove one computer, one vote. PoW doesn't work by voting. It works by random chance. The only problem PoW solves is consensus on ordering.

Ah I grow weary in this thread.

U repeated exactly what I said.  And then didn't read my partial soln

Ahem, try reading again. You proposed proof-of-storage as a potential means to voting.

Prior proof-of-storage (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310323.0) "wastes" storage like POW "wastes" CPU.  It proves that storage exists.  The proposal above proves that a unique copy of the blockchain is stored somewhere.  This is much more valuable than proof that storage exists so it is perhaps better named proof-of-full-node.  The reason you can't just rent hard disk space on AWS to fake this out is because you need to calculate the inverse hash for every byte of the blockchain, salted by your node id.  The designer can choose how hard this is so it could take (say) a normal computer 6 months to do the entire 5 year blockchain. So the proof of storage is backed by POW which makes it hard to calculate the values on-the-fly.  You could rent a bunch of AWS storage AND separately rent a supercomputer to individually calculate the hash-1 blockchain data, storing the result into AWS.  But if you do that, you actually HAVE N individual copies of the blockchain so would receive N votes.

Because I am basically arguing with myself here I will now criticize the approach's limitations.  It is possible that modifications to this approach could solve them:

1. "Difficulty" is chosen in advance, not dynamically.  This is problematic as processing power increases.
2. It takes a long time for a new node to become a provably "full" node.  Of course, nodes could become non-provably "full" nodes just by downloading the blockchain as is done today, and nodes could advertise themselves as partly provable, receiving a partial vote...
3. The provable blockchain could be constructed by many CPUs running in parallel... is this a problem?  If so we could force serialization by salting Xi with Xi-1.
4. The system functions as a real-time interactive proof.  There is no way store a historical proof that a node was full on date D.  Bitcoin-style POW+blockchain does store historical proof of computation power.

Okay I got it now (I was very fatigued before prior reply and you didn't give any high level description). It is a historic proof that an entity was winning PoW blocks. So basically you have to set a threshold as to what level of cumulative PoW difficulty constitutes a vote, thus a centralized party decides what class of voter is included.

This is representative governance, because the users can't vote and those with more PoW can vote more times (creating numerous sockpuppets which is essentially analogous to my prior rebuttal). Representative governance is even more prone to capture by the Logic of Collective Action.

Bitcoin has no choice but to head these sort of perilous directions because the fundamental design is flawed.

If Bitcoin's design would scale without intervention, we wouldn't be seeing the need to do this.

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June 17, 2015, 02:28:18 PM
 #26716

Now it does for me as well.

I think the auto moderator may have grabbed it for a few minutes, which makes me wonder exactly what kind of setting theymos is using for it.
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June 17, 2015, 02:44:19 PM
 #26717

Now it does for me as well.

I think the auto moderator may have grabbed it for a few minutes, which makes me wonder exactly what kind of setting theymos is using for it.

Note to Blockstream, compromise on a BIP and increase the block size already (and don't blablah about you already suggested they propose a BIP, Gavinmike aren't leaders, etc ... get a compromise done with as few words as possible). You are being out maneuvered politically and will be painted as the bad guys if you continue to write more rebuttals to Mike Hearn. STFU (with the diatribes from Adam) and live to fight another day. Stop that nonsense policy on the bitcoin.org that is divisive.

To Adam and Gregory, when you joined Bitcoin you implicitly agreed that it was "one for all and all for one". If you do anything politically to violate that, even if with good intentions to protect Bitcoin from a mad rush towards centralization or technical breakage as the Coinbase et al drive up TPS rapidly towards Visa scale, then you are violating your own interests believe it or not.

Instead of fighting your battle on the political front, go get clever on your technical work and make an end run around what you fear. STFU and reach compromise asap so you can live to fight another day.

Yes Gavinmike are diluting your power. They know what they are doing. You better know they can do it. If you are wise, you will rescue the clout you still have and retain some of it by using your political power less auspiciously (or let's say don't try to paint yourselves as the good guys, because it makes people sneer or skeptical when they read those diatribes that reflect on your egos more than on the reality of the situation) so you can win some concessions on the rate of increase.

Adam and Gregory are engineers and ostensibly thus far not very astute political scientists.

They apparently can't see that Gavinmike purposely incited them to fight in order to drive a wedge between them and more than 50% of the power in the community. It doesn't matter who is right, because both directions are flawed thus whomever resists forward movement will be the bad guys. The most astute action on their part is to not fight in public.

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June 17, 2015, 02:45:08 PM
 #26718

For the expansionist here, what do you think?  Should we compromise at 8MB?  Personally I am ok with that, esp if an automatic periodic increase is baked in.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114577/chinese-mining-pools-propose-alternative-8-mb-block-size

EDIT: page 1337!  gotta have something substantive on it :-)

i'm ok with it with the automatic expansion.  but i'm alittle concerned with the miner voting for expansion.  why just them and is voting really the way we want to go?

Yes the BIP 100 voting scheme seems a bit under developed at this point.  The problem is that POW mining is the only way to prove independent existence, this is the basis of distributed consensus -- you can easily create a bunch of fake AWS "full" nodes for example -- 1000 nodes just forward requests to a single full node.  And if you could solve the voting problem without using mining, you could use that solution to remove mining from consensus (i.e. from bitcoin).

One way to prove unique nodes is to require that every node use asymmetric functions to encode the data to be stored, with uniquifying "salt".  This is essentially hashing but backwards.

For example, every node chooses a unique 256bit identifier (salt).  Then for every 8 or 16 bits of blockchain data Di, it finds and stores Xi such that Hash(Xi + identifier + i) = Di (where "+" means "append").

This search happens continually as the blockchain is being created.

Now a client can validate the uniqueness of storage by another node by requesting random chunks of data from the node.  The node responds with its ID and Xi0-i1.  The client can then quickly validate this by running the hash function and comparing the result to its own blockchain.

A "full" node (one that is calculating this data and storing it as the blockchain is created) will be able to respond quickly where one that is not doing so will have to calculate the reverse hash function (essentially a random search like mining but easier because only 8 or 16 bits) on the fly.

Once you have this "proof of storage" you might be able to turn it into allowing node voting...

So someone rents hard disk space on Amazon AWS during the voting period and becomes many unique entities.

You were correct that there is no way to prove one computer, one vote. PoW doesn't work by voting. It works by random chance. The only problem PoW solves is consensus on ordering.

Ah I grow weary in this thread.

U repeated exactly what I said.  And then didn't read my partial soln

Ahem, try reading again. You proposed proof-of-storage as a potential means to voting.

Prior proof-of-storage (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310323.0) "wastes" storage like POW "wastes" CPU.  It proves that storage exists.  The proposal above proves that a unique copy of the blockchain is stored somewhere.  This is much more valuable than proof that storage exists so it is perhaps better named proof-of-full-node.  The reason you can't just rent hard disk space on AWS to fake this out is because you need to calculate the inverse hash for every byte of the blockchain, salted by your node id.  The designer can choose how hard this is so it could take (say) a normal computer 6 months to do the entire 5 year blockchain. So the proof of storage is backed by POW which makes it hard to calculate the values on-the-fly.  You could rent a bunch of AWS storage AND separately rent a supercomputer to individually calculate the hash-1 blockchain data, storing the result into AWS.  But if you do that, you actually HAVE N individual copies of the blockchain so would receive N votes.

Because I am basically arguing with myself here I will now criticize the approach's limitations.  It is possible that modifications to this approach could solve them:

1. "Difficulty" is chosen in advance, not dynamically.  This is problematic as processing power increases.
2. It takes a long time for a new node to become a provably "full" node.  Of course, nodes could become non-provably "full" nodes just by downloading the blockchain as is done today, and nodes could advertise themselves as partly provable, receiving a partial vote...
3. The provable blockchain could be constructed by many CPUs running in parallel... is this a problem?  If so we could force serialization by salting Xi with Xi-1.
4. The system functions as a real-time interactive proof.  There is no way store a historical proof that a node was full on date D.  Bitcoin-style POW+blockchain does store historical proof of computation power.

Okay I got it now (I was very fatigued before prior reply and you didn't give any high level description). It is a historic proof that an entity was winning PoW blocks. So basically you have to set a threshold as to what level of cumulative PoW difficulty constitutes a vote, thus a centralized party decides what class of voter is included.

This is representative governance, because the users can't vote and those with more PoW can vote more times (creating numerous sockpuppets). Representative governance is even more prone to capture by the Logic of Collective Action.

Bitcoin has no choice but to head these sort of perilous directions because the fundamental design is flawed.

If Bitcoin's design would scale without intervention, we wouldn't be seeing the need to do this.

I don't think you get it.  It is a proof that an entity is storing a UNIQUE copy of the blockchain.  What little prior PoS work I've read seems to prove that storage exists, or that a file is being stored.  Unfortunately they do not address the idea that you want to store a file in 2 places A & B and ensure that A & B are not in collusion and so the file is only stored one of the 2 locations.

Honestly I'm less interested in the BIP 100 voting scheme (and the usefulness of voting in general as a governance mechanism) as I am in healing the rift between miners and full nodes.  Clearly no-one is going to implement the above proposal for bitcoin just so full nodes can vote on BIP 100! :-)

Justus: I could see your post just fine.

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June 17, 2015, 02:51:15 PM
 #26719

link repost from adam's thread, in case you missed it:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-17/rbs-customer-payments-missing-after-latest-technology-failure
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June 17, 2015, 03:13:09 PM
 #26720

For the expansionist here, what do you think?  Should we compromise at 8MB?  Personally I am ok with that, esp if an automatic periodic increase is baked in.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114577/chinese-mining-pools-propose-alternative-8-mb-block-size

EDIT: page 1337!  gotta have something substantive on it :-)

i'm ok with it with the automatic expansion.  but i'm alittle concerned with the miner voting for expansion.  why just them and is voting really the way we want to go?

Yes the BIP 100 voting scheme seems a bit under developed at this point.  The problem is that POW mining is the only way to prove independent existence, this is the basis of distributed consensus -- you can easily create a bunch of fake AWS "full" nodes for example -- 1000 nodes just forward requests to a single full node.  And if you could solve the voting problem without using mining, you could use that solution to remove mining from consensus (i.e. from bitcoin).

One way to prove unique nodes is to require that every node use asymmetric functions to encode the data to be stored, with uniquifying "salt".  This is essentially hashing but backwards.

For example, every node chooses a unique 256bit identifier (salt).  Then for every 8 or 16 bits of blockchain data Di, it finds and stores Xi such that Hash(Xi + identifier + i) = Di (where "+" means "append").

This search happens continually as the blockchain is being created.

Now a client can validate the uniqueness of storage by another node by requesting random chunks of data from the node.  The node responds with its ID and Xi0-i1.  The client can then quickly validate this by running the hash function and comparing the result to its own blockchain.

A "full" node (one that is calculating this data and storing it as the blockchain is created) will be able to respond quickly where one that is not doing so will have to calculate the reverse hash function (essentially a random search like mining but easier because only 8 or 16 bits) on the fly.

Once you have this "proof of storage" you might be able to turn it into allowing node voting...

So someone rents hard disk space on Amazon AWS during the voting period and becomes many unique entities.

You were correct that there is no way to prove one computer, one vote. PoW doesn't work by voting. It works by random chance. The only problem PoW solves is consensus on ordering.

Ah I grow weary in this thread.

U repeated exactly what I said.  And then didn't read my partial soln

Ahem, try reading again. You proposed proof-of-storage as a potential means to voting.

Prior proof-of-storage (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310323.0) "wastes" storage like POW "wastes" CPU.  It proves that storage exists.  The proposal above proves that a unique copy of the blockchain is stored somewhere.  This is much more valuable than proof that storage exists so it is perhaps better named proof-of-full-node.  The reason you can't just rent hard disk space on AWS to fake this out is because you need to calculate the inverse hash for every byte of the blockchain, salted by your node id.  The designer can choose how hard this is so it could take (say) a normal computer 6 months to do the entire 5 year blockchain. So the proof of storage is backed by POW which makes it hard to calculate the values on-the-fly.  You could rent a bunch of AWS storage AND separately rent a supercomputer to individually calculate the hash-1 blockchain data, storing the result into AWS.  But if you do that, you actually HAVE N individual copies of the blockchain so would receive N votes.

Because I am basically arguing with myself here I will now criticize the approach's limitations.  It is possible that modifications to this approach could solve them:

1. "Difficulty" is chosen in advance, not dynamically.  This is problematic as processing power increases.
2. It takes a long time for a new node to become a provably "full" node.  Of course, nodes could become non-provably "full" nodes just by downloading the blockchain as is done today, and nodes could advertise themselves as partly provable, receiving a partial vote...
3. The provable blockchain could be constructed by many CPUs running in parallel... is this a problem?  If so we could force serialization by salting Xi with Xi-1.
4. The system functions as a real-time interactive proof.  There is no way store a historical proof that a node was full on date D.  Bitcoin-style POW+blockchain does store historical proof of computation power.

Okay I got it now (I was very fatigued before prior reply and you didn't give any high level description). It is a historic proof that an entity was winning PoW blocks. So basically you have to set a threshold as to what level of cumulative PoW difficulty constitutes a vote, thus a centralized party decides what class of voter is included.

This is representative governance, because the users can't vote and those with more PoW can vote more times (creating numerous sockpuppets). Representative governance is even more prone to capture by the Logic of Collective Action.

Bitcoin has no choice but to head these sort of perilous directions because the fundamental design is flawed.

If Bitcoin's design would scale without intervention, we wouldn't be seeing the need to do this.

I don't think you get it.  It is a proof that an entity is storing a UNIQUE copy of the blockchain.  What little prior PoS work I've read seems to prove that storage exists, or that a file is being stored.  Unfortunately they do not address the idea that you want to store a file in 2 places A & B and ensure that A & B are not in collusion and so the file is only stored one of the 2 locations.

Honestly I'm less interested in the BIP 100 voting scheme (and the usefulness of voting in general as a governance mechanism) as I am in healing the rift between miners and full nodes.  Clearly no-one is going to implement the above proposal for bitcoin just so full nodes can vote on BIP 100! :-)

If you are not talking about its utility for voting, then how can you say I don't get it, when I was responding to its utility for voting, since that is the context in which you sold your idea initially. And for voting it sucks as I explained because it is basically one vote for one hashrate. So you could simplify your idea into its functional equivalent which is a vote placed into each block, which is fundamentally what your idea does for voting (your idea adds the ability to scale up the threshold of how many blocks constitute one vote but I don't see how that is functionally any different than a threshold on the number of blocks of yes to constitute a yes vote).

Yes you could use one vote per block to vote for those who have stake. And I think that would be a horrendous design for the same reason I think PoS sucks compared to PoW, i.e. that the entropy (randomness) of the system is limited internally and thus is game-able. Whereas, PoW is only game-able from the 50% (actually 30% if propagation is an issue for selfish mining) vector, but I claim (awaiting peer review soon) that I have removed that attack vector from my design.

Apologies to rain on your design. You are obviously creative and contemplating new designs which I applaud. What happened to me is I started to think about the problem at a higher level of semantics and then I was able to make the breakthrough. Studying the math for selfish mining lead me to the concept that propagation delay was the enemy I was fighting.

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