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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022643 times)
kazuki49
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June 21, 2015, 06:04:33 PM
 #27001

Similarly, because 95% has been mined, I am not so sure that people will use bitcoin over an altcoin as a means of p2p transfer. It's supply in 2024 will be far too small to facilitate hundreds of million of people buying in to actually use it. Because by 2024, either the legacy rail has taken over and bitcoin is far too expensive relative to it's supply OR, it will not have happened and bitcoin will be worth nothing. Perhaps this is too simplistic an argument to make, but 10 years is not actually very long.

It didnt use to concern me, but it does now.

It concerns you because you think outside the myopic delusional bubble that is bitcointalk and /r/bitcoin, and thats exactly the reason Monero or other more suited and permanently disinflationary coin for p2p payment will eventually take over, you cant force people into one (public, transparent, NSA-stamped) blockchain.
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June 21, 2015, 06:06:09 PM
 #27002

This is the right time to buy, after this downtrend period we are about to rise and reach again the $300 value.

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June 21, 2015, 06:12:48 PM
 #27003


Yes, you are right. But solex is presenting IBTL like it reduces bandwidth to 1/32

That's probably a misunderstanding. He said: "Obviously the real-time unconfirmed transaction overhead does remain. and is large long-term.".

Solex seems to have been envisioning IBLT's to be akin to how RAID obtains 'magic' results by use of parity bits.  He would be wrong about this...but...

...actually a Merkle tree structure offers the ability to do some pretty significant optimizations and 'magic'.  If, for instance, a branch can be cut off because it contains some taint, all of the twigs and leaves beyond it are irrelevant.  Pruning could be arbitrarily effective at discriminating and reducing bandwidth depending on the taint ratio.  1/32 is hardly inconceivable and it could be much more.

The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block.  My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.


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June 21, 2015, 06:16:49 PM
 #27004


Yes, you are right. But solex is presenting IBTL like it reduces bandwidth to 1/32

That's probably a misunderstanding. He said: "Obviously the real-time unconfirmed transaction overhead does remain. and is large long-term.".

Solex seems to have been envisioning IBLT's to be akin to how RAID obtains 'magic' results by use of parity bits.  He would be wrong about this...but...

...actually a Merkle tree structure offers the ability to do some pretty significant optimizations and 'magic'.  If, for instance, a branch can be cut off because it contains some taint, all of the twigs and leaves beyond it are irrelevant.  Pruning could be arbitrarily effective at discriminating and reducing bandwidth depending on the taint ratio.  1/32 is hardly inconceivable and it could be much more.

The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.



that is the intent.
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June 21, 2015, 06:19:01 PM
 #27005

This is the right time to buy, after this downtrend period we are about to rise and reach again the $300 value.

i fully agree.

if Bitcoin were to have failed, it would have done it by now.  instead, what XT is going to offer is hope for Bitcoin's long awaited and promised growth.  as this percolates thru the mkt place, we will reverse the 90% downtrend and start to climb probably accelerating thru next July's block halving.  i'm hoping for the next 10x ramp as we've seen several times in past years.
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June 21, 2015, 06:21:59 PM
 #27006

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.


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June 21, 2015, 06:27:43 PM
 #27007

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.
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June 21, 2015, 06:33:36 PM
 #27008

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.
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June 21, 2015, 06:43:54 PM
 #27009


perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

A closer match to SV40


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June 21, 2015, 06:56:46 PM
 #27010

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

That's OK. Then we just cut back.

I'd rather try than not try at all.
av123
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June 21, 2015, 07:09:07 PM
 #27011

oh Lordy, now i'm having to educate TBI on digital gold:

https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/612652436126363648

Saw that.

Not sure why he would be so flippant about increasing the hard cap.
Odalv
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June 21, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
 #27012

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

That's OK. Then we just cut back.

I'd rather try than not try at all.


Not increasing block size will enable to start transaction's fee discovery and it creates environment for innovations. This innovations will reduce fees and move transaction to SC. BItcoin will stay decentralized and more powerful.
cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 07:21:40 PM
 #27013

oh Lordy, now i'm having to educate TBI on digital gold:

https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/612652436126363648

Saw that.

Not sure why he would be so flippant about increasing the hard cap.

Maybe because he's a TBI?
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June 21, 2015, 07:28:08 PM
 #27014

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

That's OK. Then we just cut back.

I'd rather try than not try at all.


Not increasing block size will enable to start transaction's fee discovery and it creates environment for innovations. This innovations will reduce fees and move transaction to SC. BItcoin will stay decentralized and more powerful.

Facepalm.

The debate has evolved considerably since last October.
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June 21, 2015, 07:34:34 PM
 #27015


Not increasing block size will enable to start transaction's fee discovery and it creates environment for innovations. This innovations will reduce fees and move transaction to SC. BItcoin will stay decentralized and more powerful.

Facepalm.

The debate has evolved considerably since last October.

A debate does not 'evolve' by one guy (no matter what his impression of himself) or group re-stating the same flawed assertions over and over again.  I and most others on my side of the philosophical debate are entirely unimpressed (and somewhat perplexed) at your activities, but oh well.


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June 21, 2015, 07:49:22 PM
 #27016


Not increasing block size will enable to start transaction's fee discovery and it creates environment for innovations. This innovations will reduce fees and move transaction to SC. BItcoin will stay decentralized and more powerful.

Facepalm.

The debate has evolved considerably since last October.

A debate does not 'evolve' by one guy (no matter what his impression of himself) or group re-stating the same flawed assertions over and over again.  I and most others on my side of the philosophical debate are entirely unimpressed (and somewhat perplexed) at your activities, but oh well.



Please let us know how well Elements is working. I honestly want to know.
Odalv
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June 21, 2015, 08:12:08 PM
 #27017


Not increasing block size will enable to start transaction's fee discovery and it creates environment for innovations. This innovations will reduce fees and move transaction to SC. BItcoin will stay decentralized and more powerful.

Facepalm.

The debate has evolved considerably since last October.

A debate does not 'evolve' by one guy (no matter what his impression of himself) or group re-stating the same flawed assertions over and over again.  I and most others on my side of the philosophical debate are entirely unimpressed (and somewhat perplexed) at your activities, but oh well.



Please let us know how well Elements is working. I honestly want to know.

Confidential Transactions
 -> it is another excellent project from gmaxwell

Quote
Confidential Transactions is enabled in Elements and used by default by all ordinary transactions.
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June 21, 2015, 08:28:44 PM
 #27018

I like this explanation.

ok here in detail how and why it works:

1. payer and payee agree on a 2-of-2 address and own addresses
2. payer crafts a bond transaction that deposits X to the common address, but sends only the hash (outpoint) of it to payee. payer does not yet broadcast it, hence no risk to him.
3. payee crafts and signs a refund transaction that spends the outpoint back to payee time locked, such that it can not be included into the block chain until that time point. Payee can safely sign since if he does not own any coin with the outpoint.
4. payer verifies that the refund transaction if counter-signed and broadcasted by him would return the bond to him and if so broadcasts the bond transaction. He can safely do so, since if payee would not proceed, but he could get his money back on his own after the timeout.
5. now payer wanst to use some service of payee and crafts and signs a settlement transaction spending the same outpoint that pays him X-delta and delta to payee. The transaction is not yet valid since it needs payee's signature, hence payer can not broadcast it. Payer sends it to Payee.
6. Payee verifies that the settlement transaction has valid signature of payer and that it gives him enough to offer the service. Payee could countersign and broadcast the settlement transaction thereby closing the channel and also invalidating (double spending) the refund transaction.
7. Payer keeps sending new versions of the settlement transaction with increasing deltas while using the service. If delta does not increase sufficiently Payee closes the channel.
8. At close of the channel Payee will counter-sign and broadcast latest version, since that is most favorable to him.
9. Payee will close the channel well before the refund timout to avoid a race of the two alternatives.

edit:
This can be used as fast credit card. There is no need to wait for confirmations. Payment is instant. It can be used for all payments during month and then cleared by 1 transaction at the end of month.  (with credit card company)
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June 21, 2015, 08:45:03 PM
 #27019


And that's precisely why we need to keep all those TX's on the mainchain.

Why ? If we split same amount of transactions into 10,000 chains then
a) you can mine all 10,000 chains (it will cost you same resources as 1 BIG chain)  -> big corporation
b) you can mine/verify only 1-3 small chains on your phone -> 99.9% ordinary people

i pointed out upthread how that will lead to tremendous centralization of mining as small miners with poor connectivity would be crushed trying to deal with 10000 chains at once in terms of resources, maintenance, coding reqs, etc.

not good.

It isn't really clear whether one chain 10000x as large is better or worse for small miners than 10000 separate chains. In the latter case at least a smaller miner could drop some of the least important/valuable chains. You can't drop part of blocks.
Odalv
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June 21, 2015, 08:54:15 PM
 #27020


And that's precisely why we need to keep all those TX's on the mainchain.

Why ? If we split same amount of transactions into 10,000 chains then
a) you can mine all 10,000 chains (it will cost you same resources as 1 BIG chain)  -> big corporation
b) you can mine/verify only 1-3 small chains on your phone -> 99.9% ordinary people

i pointed out upthread how that will lead to tremendous centralization of mining as small miners with poor connectivity would be crushed trying to deal with 10000 chains at once in terms of resources, maintenance, coding reqs, etc.

not good.

It isn't really clear whether one chain 10000x as large is better or worse for small miners than 10000 separate chains. In the latter case at least a smaller miner could drop some of the least important/valuable chains. You can't drop part of blocks.


It is even more important if you are not miner. With 10,000x as large chain ordinary user cannot verify if block is valid.  If there are only last 5 big miners left then they can start to produce fake block. b/c there is nobody (except 5 miners)  who has enough resources to verify all blocks.


Edit:
Everyone must verify everything is bad design. => this will collapse.
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