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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1953460 times)
Ivanhoe
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July 02, 2015, 06:09:32 PM
 #28041

Starting to believe more and more that September will be SHTF month.

yeah, usually it goes "sell in May and go away", then SHTF in the Fall.  most ppl think October is the worst month but it's really September.  right around the corner.

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/septworstmonth.asp

7 year collapse in Sept 2015?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DP4499Bbhw&safe=active

Something like that. I don't necessarily believe the Shemitah theory, but I think the end of this year we will start seeing the economic bubble pop.

Personally, I want to see how a stock market/economic crises affects Bitcoin price. I can care less about the stock markets because I have nothing invested in it.

yep, me too. 

that's what James Rickards has been going on about for years now.  personally, from what price action we've had along with the alignment of the cycles, i expect Bitcoin to do quite well.

we just need to get past this block size issue to let it run.
Divide et impera, something i see much in the community lately compared to earlier years.
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cypherdoc
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July 02, 2015, 06:17:36 PM
 #28042

Anyhow, back to the shilling business. It seems to me that the multi persona/account copying and pasting shill shenanigans could well and truly be ascribed, in the context of Bitcointalk.org, not to cypherdoc, but to TPTB/Anonymint, surely.

He has exhibited all of the characteristics that, to my mind, a successful shill would have at his disposal :-  he has , for example, just enough knowledge in the field to hoodwink those among us who are suggestible and naive (but not enough knowledge to clearly and concisely contribute anything meaningful)  ;   he has multiple accounts (which are fairly easily recognisable) with which to endorse and give legitimacy to his own views    ; he promises an alternative, a better alternative, a nirvana, a shangri la - but never delivers;    but, most of all, his mission seems to be to implant doubt and create confusion.

A kind of crypto nihilist Pontius Pilate.

 And, in truth, ultra conservative and reactionary. He has aptly named himself in his latest incarnation, TPTB. He, and they (the real TPTB that is) don't want a decentralised democratic store and mechanism by which to transfer value - they require a means by which they are able to stop the masses accessing their illegitemately horded stashes via taxation. They don't give a monkeys toss about the ordinary Jo being "his own banker" - for that is a privilege that the ordinary Jo (the "sheeple")hasn't earned.

      Anthow, in the end I guess we all know that you judge a tree by its fruit - and in the context in which we are all operating this might best be ascertained by the strength of the argument. I mean, the strongest argument should carry the day - and who are we to judge wether that be put forward by someone with vested interests or not (ie. a shill) - would it, indeed, matter anyway ?

FWIW it seems to me that at present btc isn't seen as a threat precisely because of the limit on transactions - lift that limit and it becomes a serious player. I can see (I think) the arguments against lifting the block limit (centralisation), and the arguments for sc's etc - but I remain to be convinced.



thank you, thank you, thank you.

and i might add, he insults all of us in turn trying to create doubt in each and every one of us; w/o ever producing the promised coin.

notice the vision keeps changing too.  at first it was Bitcoin will become the NWO currency which upon that achievement would then be used to rape us all in the doomsday scenario.  then it morphed to "Monero might be a thing".  then, while at first being dismissive of Blockstream and SC's, he is now saying SC's will enable his perfect coin and Bitcoin is doomed here in the present.  also, his repeated claims to leave the thread to code.  must be a bored coder.  but of course tvbcof would latch on to him as his buddy.  they're both doom and gloomer socialist types.

finally, the consistent message is that we're all doomed and nothing we do can stop that.  except his coin that never shows up.
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July 02, 2015, 06:39:12 PM
 #28043

Full nodes can detect invalid blocks produced by miners because they have a full history of transactions, so if a miner tries to mine a transaction that spends coins that don't exist the full node will detect this.

A miner can't spend coins that don't exist if it's being checked by full nodes - it actually has to pay enough proof of work cost to rewrite the history of the blockchain retroactively make the coins exist.

This is very expensive, even for a miner with a majority hash power.

An SPV client can only verify proof of work - it doesn't have the transaction history to verify that inputs are valid. A miner with majority hash power can spend coins that don't exist, and SPV clients will accept their chain as valid, and there currently exists no proof which an honest full node can supply to the SPV clients to convince them that the chain containing the highest proof of work is actually invalid.

You can try to fix this with committed UTXO sets, but it doesn't really change anything - SPV clients can't validate the UTXO sets any more than they can verify blocks, so a miner with majority hash power can just commit an invalid UTXO set without needing to pay the proof of work cost to retroactively rewrite the blockchain.

Maybe instead of a UTXO set, the protocol should be changed to require miners to commit a tree of existence proofs for all the inputs referenced in the block.

This way honest full nodes can produce fraud proofs which SPV clients can verify, so now the cost of producing fake blocks which SPV clients will accept is the same as the cost of producing fake blocks which full nodes will accept.
TPTB_need_war
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July 02, 2015, 08:00:01 PM
 #28044


No worries mates. I think I've said enough don't you?

Cheers.

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July 02, 2015, 08:07:05 PM
 #28045

We all think you've said more than enough.
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July 02, 2015, 08:09:00 PM
 #28046

We all think you've said more than enough.

 Grin

ThePussyThatBullshits_needs_STFU
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July 02, 2015, 08:15:38 PM
 #28047

Anyhow, back to the shilling business. It seems to me that the multi persona/account copying and pasting shill shenanigans could well and truly be ascribed, in the context of Bitcointalk.org, not to cypherdoc, but to TPTB/Anonymint, surely.

He has exhibited all of the characteristics that, to my mind, a successful shill would have at his disposal :-  he has , for example, just enough knowledge in the field to hoodwink those among us who are suggestible and naive (but not enough knowledge to clearly and concisely contribute anything meaningful)  ;   he has multiple accounts (which are fairly easily recognisable) with which to endorse and give legitimacy to his own views    ; he promises an alternative, a better alternative, a nirvana, a shangri la - but never delivers;    but, most of all, his mission seems to be to implant doubt and create confusion.

A kind of crypto nihilist Pontius Pilate.

 And, in truth, ultra conservative and reactionary. He has aptly named himself in his latest incarnation, TPTB. He, and they (the real TPTB that is) don't want a decentralised democratic store and mechanism by which to transfer value - they require a means by which they are able to stop the masses accessing their illegitemately horded stashes via taxation. They don't give a monkeys toss about the ordinary Jo being "his own banker" - for that is a privilege that the ordinary Jo (the "sheeple")hasn't earned.

      Anthow, in the end I guess we all know that you judge a tree by its fruit - and in the context in which we are all operating this might best be ascertained by the strength of the argument. I mean, the strongest argument should carry the day - and who are we to judge wether that be put forward by someone with vested interests or not (ie. a shill) - would it, indeed, matter anyway ?

FWIW it seems to me that at present btc isn't seen as a threat precisely because of the limit on transactions - lift that limit and it becomes a serious player. I can see (I think) the arguments against lifting the block limit (centralisation), and the arguments for sc's etc - but I remain to be convinced.



thank you, thank you, thank you.

and i might add, he insults all of us in turn trying to create doubt in each and every one of us; w/o ever producing the promised coin.

notice the vision keeps changing too.  at first it was Bitcoin will become the NWO currency which upon that achievement would then be used to rape us all in the doomsday scenario.  then it morphed to "Monero might be a thing".  then, while at first being dismissive of Blockstream and SC's, he is now saying SC's will enable his perfect coin and Bitcoin is doomed here in the present.  also, his repeated claims to leave the thread to code.  must be a bored coder.  but of course tvbcof would latch on to him as his buddy.  they're both doom and gloomer socialist types.

finally, the consistent message is that we're all doomed and nothing we do can stop that.  except his coin that never shows up.

A year prior he was supposed to release his "coin" but instead worked with Monero and then suggested it isn't truly anon although he did contribute to the design discussion and perhaps not the coding, and now says Monero has fundemental flaws yet all the while still claims to have the design in his head ready to be wrapped up but IMO looking for a coder to create an alt coin with which he can do a nice P&D. His views keep changing based on latest bitcoin developments which he grasps on and either uses it to his advantage by saying it will "help" his new coin which never existed or never will exist or he says it will be the end of bitcoin because of this feature (or non existant feature ie: anon, and now "infinite" transaction speed). Let bygones be bygones and let us see what he may come up with, or disappear into the night.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
Odalv
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July 02, 2015, 09:56:06 PM
 #28048

...

btw, you never answered why you're not rich yet doing your simultaneous double spends?

Hmm, I have no balls to sell HashFast BabyJets

... Looks like cypherdoc siphoned 3000BTC off Hashfast ...
practicaldreamer
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July 02, 2015, 10:47:55 PM
 #28049

...

btw, you never answered why you're not rich yet doing your simultaneous double spends?

Hmm, I have no balls to sell HashFast BabyJets

... Looks like cypherdoc siphoned 3000BTC off Hashfast ...

Oh - OK.

So Anonymint is definitely a shill - but with Cypherdoc, the jury is still out.

Come on doc, tell me it aint so.

The floor is yours.

BTW - tvbcof isn't a socialist moaner - that would be me - he is in fact a sceptic (in a grand English tradition). And on a forum dedicated to value (money) and its transference that is starting to look to me to be a very good philosophical standpoint to take (arguments re. blocksize notwithstanding).
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July 02, 2015, 11:10:32 PM
 #28050

...

btw, you never answered why you're not rich yet doing your simultaneous double spends?

Hmm, I have no balls to sell HashFast BabyJets

... Looks like cypherdoc siphoned 3000BTC off Hashfast ...

Oh - OK.

So Anonymint is definitely a shill - but with Cypherdoc, the jury is still out.

Come on doc, tell me it aint so.

The floor is yours.

BTW - tvbcof isn't a socialist moaner - that would be me - he is in fact a sceptic (in a grand English tradition). And on a forum dedicated to value (money) and its transference that is starting to look to me to be a very good philosophical standpoint to take (arguments re. blocksize notwithstanding).

look up the definition of a shill.
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July 02, 2015, 11:31:57 PM
 #28051

interesting vision for Bitcoin by Reid Hoffman, Blockstream investor:

Now, is bitcoin going to be great or not? I don’t know. I think the least interesting question about bitcoin is the current price. The most interesting thing about bitcoin is that it’s an open platform the way the Internets are an open platform, but for financial systems.

http://fortune.com/2015/07/02/reid-hoffman-greylock-qa/
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July 02, 2015, 11:37:26 PM
 #28052

interesting vision for Bitcoin by Reid Hoffman, Blockstream investor:

Now, is bitcoin going to be great or not? I don’t know. I think the least interesting question about bitcoin is the current price. The most interesting thing about bitcoin is that it’s an open platform the way the Internets are an open platform, but for financial systems.

http://fortune.com/2015/07/02/reid-hoffman-greylock-qa/
The comparisons between the infancy of Bitcoin and the infancy of the Internet have always been obvious.

It's good to see mainstream journalists pick up on it, but hopefully Bitcoin can someday escape this comparison that it can almost definitely never completely live up to.
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July 02, 2015, 11:41:51 PM
 #28053

interesting vision for Bitcoin by Reid Hoffman, Blockstream investor:

Now, is bitcoin going to be great or not? I don’t know. I think the least interesting question about bitcoin is the current price. The most interesting thing about bitcoin is that it’s an open platform the way the Internets are an open platform, but for financial systems.

http://fortune.com/2015/07/02/reid-hoffman-greylock-qa/
The comparisons between the infancy of Bitcoin and the infancy of the Internet have always been obvious.

It's good to see mainstream journalists pick up on it, but hopefully Bitcoin can someday escape this comparison that it can almost definitely never completely live up to.

my point is that Satoshi always meant for Bitcoin to be Sound Money or cash.  not a speculative platform for financial assets.  the whitepaper title:

"Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System"
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July 03, 2015, 12:30:59 AM
 #28054

What if there were too many txns for any one computer to hold and process?  A full node could be implemented by a network of computers that trust each other but this would necessarily be costly and centralized.  But a more common situation analogous to todays P2P bitcoin network would be that every node knows a fraction of the txn history and can make statements like these UTXOs are confirmed by X amount of work.  Of course any node could request and verify the validity of any txn data it does not hold... so both of the above could coexist.

TL; DR Is it emotionally acceptable (as a holder of coins) that your node can't verify every txn that ever happened only those that it is interested in and so must rely on the network as a whole to validate the txns as a whole?
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July 03, 2015, 01:38:01 AM
 #28055

TL; DR Is it emotionally acceptable (as a holder of coins) that your node can't verify every txn that ever happened only those that it is interested in and so must rely on the network as a whole to validate the txns as a whole?

I think in any future arrangement of full/light nodes, Bitcoin is still Bitcoin as long as any attacker (including a miner with majority hashing power) has to pay the same proof of work cost in order to double spend as they currently have to spend today in order to get their double spend accepted by a full node.

SPV client security will be acceptable once there exist fraud proofs which an attacker can't bypass without paying the full cost of a history rewrite.
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July 03, 2015, 02:42:27 AM
 #28056

...
notice the vision keeps changing too.  at first it was Bitcoin will become the NWO currency which upon that achievement would then be used to rape us all in the doomsday scenario.  then it morphed to "Monero might be a thing".  then, while at first being dismissive of Blockstream and SC's, he is now saying SC's will enable his perfect coin and Bitcoin is doomed here in the present.  also, his repeated claims to leave the thread to code.  must be a bored coder.  but of course tvbcof would latch on to him as his buddy.  they're both doom and gloomer socialist types.
...

I rib the guy fairly regularly about showing us the beef and subtly imply that without this he seems to be quite possibly all hat and no cattle.  OTOH, it is true (and shameful) that I treat him with kid gloves and this is due in part to his being on my side of this particular battle.  Another thing is that he rivals you (cypherdoc) for the King-of-the-Tarbabies crown and I'd just as soon not get tied up in that right now.

IIRC, I had a monster fight with the guy in his anonymint rendition on the Bundy Ranch affair.  I'm pretty sure it was him.  The venom of that interaction rivaled the worst I've had with you if you can believe that.


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July 03, 2015, 02:56:22 AM
 #28057


Yes - multi persona shill software. If it isn't here already, and being used by TPTB (as in USG etc) then I would be very surprised.

I'm pretty sure it was the HB Gary Federal e-mail hack which expose the multi-persona shill software and the U.S. Govt's purchase of some of it.  There have been second-sources for this.  It at least comes pretty close to a known fact I believe.  Of course it's possible that they bought it but it sits unused on a dusty shelf.  I find that very unlikely to say the least.


I have to say that I've followed this thread for a while. I find it, in turns, funny (tvbcof's bull baiting of cypherdoc etc) and quite interesting. The technicals of the protocol are over my head I'm afraid, though I do believe I'm getting the gist.

I swear I believe I've learned more tech by following (and sometimes engaging in) cat-fights on the net than from any other mode.  Back before the world wide web in the precambrian days of the usenet we had little to do but argue with and antagonize one another.  Better people than I focused on coding but I found it more relaxing to be a troll and a dick-head and it took considerable time away from doing useful work.


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July 03, 2015, 03:56:47 AM
 #28058

Starting to believe more and more that September will be SHTF month.

yeah, usually it goes "sell in May and go away", then SHTF in the Fall.  most ppl think October is the worst month but it's really September.  right around the corner.

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/septworstmonth.asp

7 year collapse in Sept 2015?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DP4499Bbhw&safe=active

Something like that. I don't necessarily believe the Shemitah theory, but I think the end of this year we will start seeing the economic bubble pop.

Personally, I want to see how a stock market/economic crises affects Bitcoin price. I can care less about the stock markets because I have nothing invested in it.


Let's take it out a step further. At the moment we have the technocrats of Europe sacrificing the people of Greece for the sake of the union. While I think the main effect this has on bitcoin is awareness (also some speculation and new people getting in), lets say an economic event occurred that wasn't years in the making or was tantamount to a declaration of war: say China attempted to boot a country out of the SWIFT system (as the US did to Iran). Say this country was a US ally. All of a sudden the financial system itself is under threat. Citizens of the 'sanctioned' country are worst hit. Those in neighboring / allied / opposed countries would probably start to fear retaliation. The question becomes where do those who are able to move their money put it? With bitcoin representing a parallel system and now increasingly in the public mind's eye, I think the conditions would be ripe for a mass influx.


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July 03, 2015, 03:59:52 AM
 #28059

Starting to believe more and more that September will be SHTF month.

yeah, usually it goes "sell in May and go away", then SHTF in the Fall.  most ppl think October is the worst month but it's really September.  right around the corner.

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/septworstmonth.asp

7 year collapse in Sept 2015?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DP4499Bbhw&safe=active

Something like that. I don't necessarily believe the Shemitah theory, but I think the end of this year we will start seeing the economic bubble pop.

Personally, I want to see how a stock market/economic crises affects Bitcoin price. I can care less about the stock markets because I have nothing invested in it.


Let's take it out a step further. At the moment we have the technocrats of Europe sacrificing the people of Greece for the sake of the union. While I think the main effect this has on bitcoin is awareness (also some speculation and new people getting in), lets say an economic event occurred that wasn't years in the making or was tantamount to a declaration of war: say China attempted to boot a country out of the SWIFT system (as the US did to Iran). Say this country was a US ally. All of a sudden the financial system itself is under threat. Citizens of the 'sanctioned' country are worst hit. Those in neighboring / allied / opposed countries would probably start to fear retaliation. The question becomes where do those who are able to move their money put it? With bitcoin representing a parallel system and now increasingly in the public mind's eye, I think the conditions would be ripe for a mass influx.




But we're not ready for it.

Blocks are getting full now much more frequently.
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July 03, 2015, 05:25:16 AM
 #28060

A year prior he was supposed to release his "coin" but instead worked with Monero and then suggested it isn't truly anon

I will respond to statements of factual inaccuracy. If you can find a quote from any of my usernames which refutes any of the following, then please share.

I said and still maintain the following about Monero:

  • I once joined the dev chat room for a few moments, and they were going on and on about Linux and networking esoterica, which is not my interest nor forte. Seemed far off from the things I would like to focus on and gets my juice pumping.
  • there is no great scaling for it in use as a currency that I can see
  • it can't scale decentralized
  • it uses I2P (which along with Tor I don't trust) to obscure the user's IP address (and if IP addresses are revealed the ring mixing anonymity can be unmasked)
  • it doesn't appear to group and force mandatory rings in a way that prevents unmasking the anonymity
  • the PoW hash function is not optimal for minimizing the differential between future ASICs and CPUs, i.e. I measurably know this because I have a better PoW hash function implemented
  • In Cryptonote, the mixes have to be equal value which forces balances to be preloaded into powers-of-10, which complicates wallets, leads to more chances for combinatorial unmasking, and explodes the transaction data sizes (which has impacts on scaling, orphan rate, etc).
  • afaik they have no coins to offer bounties because there was no ICO reserved for such (instead I heard the devs were mining the shit out of the egregiously front loaded debasement curve and rumor was the guy who optimized the PoW hash netted himself $150,000 before releasing the optimizations), nor would they like a rancorous dev coming in and rearranging the house
  • I've heard (not verified) they inherited a sloppy C code base and I hate C and C++, even I am very proficient in those programming languages
  • fluffypony (is he Australian?) was nasty to me from the get go (perhaps I was to him but I was just expressing my opinions similar to what I am saying now), which turned me off since he is apparently the most active dev. I've had respectful exchange with him since, and I retain no animosity towards even people who appear to have lost their mind.
  • over a year ago, rpietila was telling everyone to buy more BTC at $600 and XMR was the greatest thing since sliced bread and I was turned off by the lack of cooler heads and objectivity. Since then, I come to respect smooth and realized that rpietila isn't the key voice of XMR (and I don't dislike rpietila, he is my friend and even a potential token amount seed investor of my controlling group... no I am would not pull rpietila away from XMR, he just likes small diversifications and he is my friend after all).
  • XMR was a coin for those devs who already had money to invest, not for a dev like me who exhausted his former 18,000 oz stash and needs to strike it big one more time in life coming to old age without a retirement, blind in one eye, teenage dependents, and diagnosed with a chronic, progressive illness Multiple Sclerosis.
  • it feels like most in Monero are Europeans and I am an American. This seems to be related to their major boasting about how the coin was launched "fairly" as a collectivist mining (with front loading no less Wink) instead of as an ICO. Seems even though we can probably work together technically if we have some independence and orthogonality in modules, there do exist some cultural attitude differences. Americans (of yore and I am a throwback X gen) tend to be adamantly capitalist, anti-collectivist, very "can do", etc.. My best friend from high school was a Lt. Colonel in USAF and he lamented to me once that he hated meeting with the NATO counterparts because mostly all they did was talk. Obviously Germans are perfectionists and I have some German ancestry.
  • I was very ill most of 2013 and 2014
  • they basically took someone else's work and capitalized on, convincing the market that other Cryptonotes were inferior. For me this felt more like freeloading than capitalism. Even if Boolberry was sort of instigating them by trying to make comparisons, the entire Cryptonote outcome felt like a clusterfuck to me. What innovations did Monero do? I recalled Michael Jordan's criticism when Lebron joined with Dwade and LongNeck in Miami, "I didn't want to join Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, I wanted to beat them." Competition and innovation makes the world a better place. Lebron is athletically nearly as gifted as MJ was, but he doesn't appear to have the same mental gifts. On the flip side, whatever made MJ great as a player, makes him a horrible GM/owner[1].
  • probably lots of other reasons I am not thinking of off the top of my head

There were other things I had written and later retracted such as for example in debates with smooth. For example, I once had asserted that off chain mixing could have some advantage in that the mixes were not seen by the public, but smooth pointed out that if the NSA is truly recording every packet, then all the unmasking can be done if ever for example Tor's encryption is broken. There were other examples of issues that I retracted during discourse, such as formerly thinking Cryptonote rings could not be pruned, yet recently I revealed how to do that.

My main issue with Monero right now is that I can't see that they've solved all the issues and have momentum on its use as an anonymous currency. They are apparently making progress with a new web wallet coming, rpietila is making a game to potentially drive use as a currency. They probably have other initiatives in the works and I know also they feel that once the debt contagion accelerates, then they will be a beneficiary. We will see.

Also Monero doesn't precisely fit my goals which are to get rich, work on something interesting, and to solve the totalitarianism I believe we are facing. One aspect of "interesting" for me, is to rock the boat and make big waves. I love shocking people. Think of me as Michael Jordan or Dennis Rodman, in that I want to shoot the ball with my eyes closed or win doing it my way.

Yeah I am an American. That doesn't mean I can. Lots of loud mouthed loser Americans,  Tongue. America is at the top of the mountain and headed down the backside, but Europe is already more than halfway down from its former glory. The Asians will be taking over for us by 2032. I am in Asia now trying to adjust.

I have absolutely no desire to be involved in any pump and dump, nor do I want to own 1% of the economy (what a major responsibility and nearly impossible to allocate resources optimally at that scale).

You can be sure if ever I am involved in something it will be a fight to the finish (or unification), very high quality, and very serious. For me it is as much about making a mark on my life before I go, the challenge of competition, the wonderment of try to build something, as it is gaining some fortune to enjoy the time I have remaining.

[1]http://swarmandsting.com/2015/06/26/reports-hornets-turn-down-four-1st-rounders-from-celtics/
http://www.seasonsover.com/nba/the-path-to-prosperity-the-timely-death-of-the-bobcats

Edit: also there some personal redemption involved in my motivation. For example, there is a certain Bitcoin core dev who seems to have a difficult to categorize what appears to be from my perspective an attitude problem about me. Perhaps it has something to do with the conjecture that math conquers creativity or something along those lines. Again I don't hold grudges, for me life is more fun if moveon, but some guys incessantly remind me that they do (hold grudges or repeat the same traits that rub me the wrong way). That is the food I love to eat.

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