Bitcoin Forum
March 19, 2024, 10:59:17 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 26.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 1321 1322 1323 1324 1325 1326 1327 1328 1329 1330 1331 1332 1333 1334 1335 1336 1337 1338 1339 1340 1341 1342 1343 1344 1345 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 1358 1359 1360 [1361] 1362 1363 1364 1365 1366 1367 1368 1369 1370 1371 1372 1373 1374 1375 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 1393 1394 1395 1396 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 1408 1409 1410 1411 ... 1557 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2032123 times)
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 08:00:55 PM
 #27201

wow, no wonder ppl are so willing to offer up their coin for short selling.  dangerous as hell though.  i won't, and never will, do it:

The Bitcoin ecosystem will soon need a reference interest rate similar to LIBOR. I am promoting the concept of BIBOR (Bitcoin Inter Broker Offered Rate). This reference rate is important in striking contracts, making loans, and for brokers providing bitcoin to potential short sellers. According to broker loan rates, the current implied annual interest rate for bitcoin is 26.5% (.0644 per day compounded x 365 days).

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114648/jon-matonis-the-bitcoin-ecosystem-will-soon-need-a-reference-interest-rate-similar-to-libor
1710845957
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710845957

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710845957
Reply with quote  #2

1710845957
Report to moderator
"Bitcoin: the cutting edge of begging technology." -- Giraffe.BTC
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1710845957
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710845957

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710845957
Reply with quote  #2

1710845957
Report to moderator
1710845957
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710845957

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710845957
Reply with quote  #2

1710845957
Report to moderator
sickpig
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008


View Profile
June 23, 2015, 08:01:31 PM
 #27202

"this Rusty guy" is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Russell

to make a long story short he wrote Linux kernel packets filtering system ipchains/iptables (aka Linux firewall), lguest virtualization system (ancestor of docker/lxc) and contribute to samba/cifs  (a way to let Linux and ms win talk together), just to name a few.

edit: fix misattribution about samba/cifs projecf

no, i know who he is.  i like his independent spirit.

just want to be sure Tongue

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400
Merit: 1006



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 08:08:06 PM
 #27203

to make a long story short he wrote Linux kernel packets filtering system ipchains/iptables (aka Linux firewall)
Random coincidence: You post about this today, while I've spent all day writing rules for an automation system (cfengine) that will generate the configuration files for tool for automating the creation of iptables rules (shorewall).
sickpig
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008


View Profile
June 23, 2015, 08:43:21 PM
 #27204

to make a long story short he wrote Linux kernel packets filtering system ipchains/iptables (aka Linux firewall)
Random coincidence: You post about this today, while I've spent all day writing rules for an automation system (cfengine) that will generate the configuration files for tool for automating the creation of iptables rules (shorewall).

devops is one of my domains, though I'm currently using https://www.chef.io/, but I'll surely look at cfengine.

that said you sure are very versatile!

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400
Merit: 1006



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 09:11:35 PM
 #27205

devops is one of my domains, though I'm currently using https://www.chef.io/, but I'll surely look at cfengine.

that said you sure are very versatile!
It's out of necessity. I have a home server whose routine maintenance is consuming too much of my time. I need to put an automation system in place so that I have more time available to do things other than keep my server running.

Also a sufficiently-complete automation system is close enough to Linux distro that I might as well make it publicly available as one.

To save time.

NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
June 23, 2015, 09:37:14 PM
 #27206

But polls show that Gavin has a clear majority... its just certain core devs who object and not on technical grounds.  And most of them are working for a single organization.  How is that "hectoring a community"?


It isn't. Who said that?

There is a difference between "we need a hard fork to increase the block size" and "Gavin's plan is the way to do it, (which ever plan he settles upon)"

Most all the devs want a hard fork to increase block size.  Very few are on board with Gavin's plan.
Anyhow, it looks like the Bitcoin Core hard fork will be more likely to progress from gmaxwell's BIP, and the XT fork from Gavins perhaps.
They may remain compatible until there is a block that one would process and the other wouldn't.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400
Merit: 1000



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 09:38:21 PM
 #27207

that's quite encouraging.  the more i hear from this Rusty guy, the more i like him:

"Cheers,
Rusty.
PS. I work for Blockstream.  And I'm supposed to be working on
    Lightning, not this."


"this Rusty guy" is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Russell

to make a long story short he wrote Linux kernel packets filtering system ipchains/iptables (aka Linux firewall), lguest virtualization system (ancestor of docker/lxc) and contribute to samba/cifs  (a way to let Linux and ms win talk together), just to name a few.

edit: fix misattribution about samba/cifs projecf

no, i know who he is.  i like his independent spirit.

Wow, what happened. Do you like "for profit" and  "blockstream" developer ?
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 09:45:36 PM
 #27208

that's quite encouraging.  the more i hear from this Rusty guy, the more i like him:

"Cheers,
Rusty.
PS. I work for Blockstream.  And I'm supposed to be working on
    Lightning, not this."


"this Rusty guy" is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Russell

to make a long story short he wrote Linux kernel packets filtering system ipchains/iptables (aka Linux firewall), lguest virtualization system (ancestor of docker/lxc) and contribute to samba/cifs  (a way to let Linux and ms win talk together), just to name a few.

edit: fix misattribution about samba/cifs projecf

no, i know who he is.  i like his independent spirit.

Wow, what happened. Do you like "for profit" and  "blockstream" developer ?

NO, I DON'T.
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3430
Merit: 3068



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 09:48:17 PM
 #27209

But polls show that Gavin has a clear majority... its just certain core devs who object and not on technical grounds.  And most of them are working for a single organization.  How is that "hectoring a community"?


It isn't. Who said that?

There is a difference between "we need a hard fork to increase the block size" and "Gavin's plan is the way to do it, (which ever plan he settles upon)"

Most all the devs want a hard fork to increase block size.  Very few are on board with Gavin's plan.
Anyhow, it looks like the Bitcoin Core hard fork will be more likely to progress from gmaxwell's BIP, and the XT fork from Gavins perhaps.
They may remain compatible until there is a block that one would process and the other wouldn't.

You can include me in that contingent: we do need a hard fork to increase the block size (and only for what that will achieve, buying time). Very few people are debating that now, and I myself have been aware of the scalability issue for almost as long as I've been interested in bitcoin.

Re: which designs will be implemented on which fork; I thought Gavin had decided against the hostile fork?

Vires in numeris
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
June 23, 2015, 09:54:39 PM
 #27210

But polls show that Gavin has a clear majority... its just certain core devs who object and not on technical grounds.  And most of them are working for a single organization.  How is that "hectoring a community"?


It isn't. Who said that?

There is a difference between "we need a hard fork to increase the block size" and "Gavin's plan is the way to do it, (which ever plan he settles upon)"

Most all the devs want a hard fork to increase block size.  Very few are on board with Gavin's plan.
Anyhow, it looks like the Bitcoin Core hard fork will be more likely to progress from gmaxwell's BIP, and the XT fork from Gavins perhaps.
They may remain compatible until there is a block that one would process and the other wouldn't.

You can include me in that contingent: we do need a hard fork to increase the block size (and only for what that will achieve, buying time). Very few people are debating that now, and I myself have been aware of the scalability issue for almost as long as I've been interested in bitcoin.

Re: which designs will be implemented on which fork; I thought Gavin had decided against the hostile fork?

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:05:31 PM
 #27211

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

For readers who have studied feedback control systems:

   Q. How do you get a good closed-loop response?

   A. Start with a good open-loop one. 

The point is that the Bitcoin system will need tweaking (feedback) at some point in time in the future.  It is best if these tweaks are as small as possible.  That means that the guesses we make now about the future (realize that there's no way not to guess) should be as realistic as possible, thereby giving us a good open-loop response that needs as little feedback as possible to correct. 

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:08:46 PM
 #27212

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

For readers who have studied feedback control systems:

   Q. How do you get a good closed-loop response?

   A. Start with a good open-loop one.  

The point is that the Bitcoin system will need tweaking (feedback) at some point in time in the future.  It is best if these tweaks are as small as possible.  That means that the guesses we make now about the future (realize that there's no way not to guess) should be as realistic as possible, thereby giving us a good open-loop response that needs as little feedback as possible to correct.  

Gavin's guesses about the future look pretty good to me in his current proposal.  what do you think?

i still think he is trying to automate out himself.
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3430
Merit: 3068



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:13:14 PM
 #27213

But polls show that Gavin has a clear majority... its just certain core devs who object and not on technical grounds.  And most of them are working for a single organization.  How is that "hectoring a community"?


It isn't. Who said that?

There is a difference between "we need a hard fork to increase the block size" and "Gavin's plan is the way to do it, (which ever plan he settles upon)"

Most all the devs want a hard fork to increase block size.  Very few are on board with Gavin's plan.
Anyhow, it looks like the Bitcoin Core hard fork will be more likely to progress from gmaxwell's BIP, and the XT fork from Gavins perhaps.
They may remain compatible until there is a block that one would process and the other wouldn't.

You can include me in that contingent: we do need a hard fork to increase the block size (and only for what that will achieve, buying time). Very few people are debating that now, and I myself have been aware of the scalability issue for almost as long as I've been interested in bitcoin.

Re: which designs will be implemented on which fork; I thought Gavin had decided against the hostile fork?

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

That sounds sensible, but it also sounds like you're signed up to Greg Maxwell's prospectus on the issue. I like the idea of dynamic sizing, and of flexibility to make decisions only once that decision is required, but arguments have been made that this creates a perverse incentive for the miners to collude on the vote. Not to say I agree with that, but I haven't fully decided yet. This debate needs a really long time to be adequately digested. Influential people in this community arguably don't understand the system we have now for what it is, the idea that this debate is somehow ready for everyone to make an informed decision is not sensible.

Vires in numeris
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3430
Merit: 3068



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:19:19 PM
 #27214

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

For readers who have studied feedback control systems:

   Q. How do you get a good closed-loop response?

   A. Start with a good open-loop one. 

The point is that the Bitcoin system will need tweaking (feedback) at some point in time in the future.  It is best if these tweaks are as small as possible.  That means that the guesses we make now about the future (realize that there's no way not to guess) should be as realistic as possible, thereby giving us a good open-loop response that needs as little feedback as possible to correct. 

There's a faint suggestion here that there is only one possible way to make bitcoin scale up, and it involves guessing which block size corresponds to which required rate of transactions. Which implies you believe the whole thing scales up using block size increases only. Is this really what you're implying?

Vires in numeris
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:21:21 PM
 #27215

sickpig
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008


View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:26:35 PM
 #27216

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

That sounds sensible, but it also sounds like you're signed up to Greg Maxwell's prospectus on the issue. I like the idea of dynamic sizing, and of flexibility to make decisions only once that decision is required, but arguments have been made that this creates a perverse incentive for the miners to collude on the vote. Not to say I agree with that, but I haven't fully decided yet. This debate needs a really long time to be adequately digested. Influential people in this community arguably don't understand the system we have now for what it is, the idea that this debate is somehow ready for everyone to make an informed decision is not sensible.

As far as I remember the debate about the max block size cap started a "long" time ago,
an it risked to stall indefinitely.

In my opinion Gavin's conduct has objectively an accelerating effect on the decision
process. I dare to say that such "extreme" attitude had stimulated a lot devs
in focusing to find a solution and to come to a compromise.

I'm not saying that his proposal is perfect or better than any others on the table, just
stating that his strategy have moved the situation toward a new equilibrium by a long shot.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3430
Merit: 3068



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:39:26 PM
 #27217

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

That sounds sensible, but it also sounds like you're signed up to Greg Maxwell's prospectus on the issue. I like the idea of dynamic sizing, and of flexibility to make decisions only once that decision is required, but arguments have been made that this creates a perverse incentive for the miners to collude on the vote. Not to say I agree with that, but I haven't fully decided yet. This debate needs a really long time to be adequately digested. Influential people in this community arguably don't understand the system we have now for what it is, the idea that this debate is somehow ready for everyone to make an informed decision is not sensible.

As far as I remember the debate about the max block size cap started a "long" time ago,
an it risked to stall indefinitely.

In my opinion Gavin's conduct has objectively an accelerating effect on the decision
process. I dare to say that such "extreme" attitude had stimulated a lot devs
in focusing to find a solution and to come to a compromise.

I'm not saying that his proposal is perfect or better than any others on the table, just
stating that his strategy have moved the situation toward a new equilibrium by a long shot.

I agree. Gavin's threat of a unilateral hardfork did successfully concentrate minds on coming up with solutions to the problem. How do you know that his intention was not to stage a dev-team coup? He behaved exactly as if he really intended to, nothing suggested otherwise (although I don't claim to be aware of every bit of public commentary Gavin has made, as previously mentioned, I am not a twitter user  Grin)

Vires in numeris
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:48:13 PM
Last edit: June 24, 2015, 07:38:13 AM by Peter R
 #27218

I would rather see voting by miners done in the future for changes to be made in the future, than see guesses made today applied far into the future.

For readers who have studied feedback control systems:

   Q. How do you get a good closed-loop response?

   A. Start with a good open-loop one.  

The point is that the Bitcoin system will need tweaking (feedback) at some point in time in the future.  It is best if these tweaks are as small as possible.  That means that the guesses we make now about the future (realize that there's no way not to guess) should be as realistic as possible, thereby giving us a good open-loop response that needs as little feedback as possible to correct.  

There's a faint suggestion here that there is only one possible way to make bitcoin scale up, and it involves guessing which block size corresponds to which required rate of transactions. Which implies you believe the whole thing scales up using block size increases only. Is this really what you're implying?

No, I'm just trying to make the point that there's no way not to guess.  A lot of people think the "static" 1 MB limit is somehow neutral while a growing cap is more of a guess.  They're both guesses.  One will turn out to be more accurate than the other and thus require less tweaking going forward...

On that note, starting with a good open-loop response is not the only way to get a good closed-loop one.  There's another way: throw a lot of energy at your system!  Or in Bitcoin's case, a lot of debate and arguments!!    

Now imagine if Satoshi had taken another few moments when implementing the cap.  He writes this in the code:

- "Let's set the cap at 1 MB for now…"

- "…but since Nielsen's Law suggests 50% growth per year, let's make the cap increase by 50% each year too…"

- "…this may need some tweaking in the future, but it's better to make a guess that's slightly off, than one that ridiculously off (like a static limit)!"

If he had done this, the blocksize limit would be set at 11.4 MB now and I bet everyone would be pretty happy.  It would just be taken for granted that "of course the limit grows with time because the systems grows with time too!"

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
kazuki49
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:51:15 PM
 #27219

speaking of fallacies, what makes you think I'm a 1 MB block man?

To answer your question about who cares when 3rd world people can't get access to 1st world technology: they do. Who is this "who" that you're referring to, when you say "who cares?". What you really mean is: I'm in my little 1st world country group of people, and I don't consider these 3rd world peasants as fully fledged humans. Who cares about them? Everyone got everything solely by merit, ergo I am superior. Let me tell you, you're looking like less of a human to me.

And speaking of consensus polling, the unilateral (i.e. the perfect opposite of a consensus poll) forked client has been rejected in favor of going through the channels to consensus that already exist.

The reality is that the former XT supporters are the people who are in desperate need of a monetary despot; you can't paint unilateral forks any other way than exactly that.

Yes, its not about the 1MB forever which is insuficient for Bitcoin on the long run, its all about consensus, and how it got destroyed prior to the hardfork that removed the 21m cap, and it will happen mark my words.

totally disagree. i've followed Bitcoin and the core dev interactions for a very, very long time in Bitcoin years.  Gavin's built in increases are him trying to automate out himself as much as possible from the process going forward.  he wants to avoid, if possible, the contention that has arisen from this process.  and don't forget he's been lobbying for this increase for 3y but never got anywhere in discussions with the Blockstream folk.  so now he has introduced his first code on this matter in a BIP in Core, not XT.  

he will never propose an increase to the 21M coin cap.  these are two different things you're desperately trying to conflate to push ppl to Monero.

c'mon doc, as much as I would like to "push ppl to Monero" thats not what I mean, its not about Gavin, he is not even the lead core developer, that person is Wladimir J. van der Laan. And if someone can hijack Bitcoin to fork without consensus to increase blocks it will happen with the coin cap, its just a matter of time now I'm afraid.

This is obviously written by an agent of the state.


Yep, busted, in this bizarro world the G-man are behind the most anonymous and resilient e-cash ever invented and the starving (for freedom) masses are behind the biggest paradoxy financial panopticon ever shilled on the Internet.
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007



View Profile
June 23, 2015, 10:53:06 PM
 #27220

Gavin's guesses about the future look pretty good to me in his current proposal.  what do you think?

I think it's fine.  20MB + 50%/yr was fine with me too.  There isn't one set of "magic numbers" that we need to find or everything comes collapsing down. 

Quote
i still think he is trying to automate out himself.

Me too.  The better job he does at guessing, the less energy he (and us) will have to throw at this debate in the future. 

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Pages: « 1 ... 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 1321 1322 1323 1324 1325 1326 1327 1328 1329 1330 1331 1332 1333 1334 1335 1336 1337 1338 1339 1340 1341 1342 1343 1344 1345 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 1358 1359 1360 [1361] 1362 1363 1364 1365 1366 1367 1368 1369 1370 1371 1372 1373 1374 1375 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 1393 1394 1395 1396 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 1408 1409 1410 1411 ... 1557 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!