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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1923461 times)
Odalv
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June 30, 2015, 09:47:11 PM
 #27941

1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed

No one is claiming that.  I'm claiming that:

   0-conf (+ RBF)   <   0-conf (as is)   <  1-conf   <   2-conf …

Where the symbol [ < ] means "less secure than."  Do you disagree with the above inequality?

If not, what is the benefit of purposely making 0-conf less secure?

0-conf (+ RBF)  is as TOTALLY INSECURE as any 0-conf
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1498689439
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rocks
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June 30, 2015, 09:48:52 PM
 #27942

1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed

No one is claiming that.  I'm claiming that:

   0-conf (+ RBF)   <   0-conf (as is)   <  1-conf   <   2-conf …

Where the symbol [ < ] means "less secure than."  Do you disagree with the above inequality?

If not, what is the benefit of purposely making 0-conf less secure?

0-conf (+ RBF)  is as TOTALLY INSECURE as any 0-conf

And Peter, myself, cypher and others already stated this as the original argument that 0-conf(+RBF) are insecure. We are discussing today's 0-conf (as-is), which functions good enough in the real world.

You've started to behave like TBTP
Odalv
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June 30, 2015, 09:55:15 PM
 #27943

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

Have you heard of this little company called BitPay, you might want to Google them. They've accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013 without issue.

We are not discussing theoretical what-if scenarios here. This is real world use of ZCT and evidence Bitcoin functions good enough here for ecommerce.
 
But you've already ignored this, you either aren't even bothering to read replies and just screaming, or are incapable of rudimentary reading comprehension.

BitPay is not "accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013" until you are a US citizen and they know who is your grandma. -> So they know who you are and they know  how to apply law.
Erdogan
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June 30, 2015, 09:57:08 PM
 #27944

1. Zero confirmed transactions, are the safest way how to transact with bitcoin.  100% security is confirmed

No one is claiming that.  I'm claiming that:

   0-conf (+ RBF)   <   0-conf (as is)   <  1-conf   <   2-conf …

Where the symbol [ < ] means "less secure than."  Do you disagree with the above inequality?

If not, what is the benefit of purposely making 0-conf less secure?

The antifragility. We need all the problems we can get.
Peter R
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June 30, 2015, 09:58:52 PM
 #27945

BitPay is not "accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013" until you are a US citizen and they know who is your grandma. -> So they know who you are and they know  how to apply law.

I just added credit to a NameCheap account using BitPay.  The credit arrived, and I was able to use it to buy hosting, before the transaction confirmed.  I also recently bought a Starbucks card using Gyft/BitPay and was able to use the card before the transaction confirmed.  

EDIT: And I'm not from the US nor registered with BitPay (does BitPay ever know who the buyer is?).

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc
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June 30, 2015, 10:06:11 PM
 #27946

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.

you are one of those devs who actually helped me realize that most of what some of you guys say is complete bullshit, aka fabricated armchair logic.

when i realized this, it was liberating.
Erdogan
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June 30, 2015, 10:08:55 PM
 #27947

here is a little tidbit as to why full nodes might be failing during this stress test.  it makes sense:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3bmb5r/stress_test_in_full_effect/csnr4fi

We should have had more than one implementation/developer set/user group. Even a simple fork like XT could do, they could compete on timely bugfixing and other trivial usage related qualities.

If so, an incident could rebalance the weight of those implementation organically. It is like in darwinian evolution, a catastophy like a flood or a fire can instantly change the volume of genes of certain types, leaving the losing genes lurking, ready to take over if a new and different event takes place. They represent the antifragility. I like to compare the laisses fleur economy to nature.
Odalv
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June 30, 2015, 10:13:44 PM
 #27948

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.

you are one of those devs who actually helped me realize that most of what some of you guys say is complete bullshit, aka fabricated armchair logic.

when i realized this, it was liberating.

actually, i have one last question.  if I simultaneous spending tx's how can I get rich by reading your newsletter for free?
Adrian-x
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June 30, 2015, 10:16:19 PM
 #27949

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.

you are one of those devs who actually helped me realize that most of what some of you guys say is complete bullshit, aka fabricated armchair logic.

when i realized this, it was liberating.

actually, i have one last question.  if I simultaneous spending tx's how can I get rich by reading your newsletter for free?
Not sure you could, you need a little understanding in economics to do that, but you could be rich double spending on all those payment service providers who use 0 confirmations.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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June 30, 2015, 10:18:41 PM
 #27950

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.

you are one of those devs who actually helped me realize that most of what some of you guys say is complete bullshit, aka fabricated armchair logic.

when i realized this, it was liberating.

actually, i have one last question.  if I simultaneous spending tx's how can I get rich by reading your newsletter for free?

i used to think, surely this dev must be running optimized simulations in the background that gives him some verified data to make these assertions, right?  or, at the very least, he's gone thru this situation before and has a foundation of knowledge in this area.  i would go quiet contemplating deeply what he had to say.

eventually, i realized no, it's complete bullshit.  he's just going thru a logic process winging it that i am more than capable of doing as well.

epiphany!
Odalv
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June 30, 2015, 10:32:46 PM
 #27951

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.

you are one of those devs who actually helped me realize that most of what some of you guys say is complete bullshit, aka fabricated armchair logic.

when i realized this, it was liberating.

actually, i have one last question.  if I simultaneous spending tx's how can I get rich by reading your newsletter for free?

i used to think, surely this dev must be running optimized simulations in the background that gives him some verified data to make these assertions, right?  or, at the very least, he's gone thru this situation before and has a foundation of knowledge in this area.  i would go quiet contemplating deeply what he had to say.

eventually, i realized no, it's complete bullshit.  he's just going thru a logic process winging it that i am more than capable of doing as well.

epiphany!

I do not know what devs do. (a lot of them are "running optimized simulations in the background that gives him some verified data to make these assertions"). And maybe a lot of them "gone thru this situation before and has a foundation of knowledge in this area".

What about you "Is it complete bullshit?"
cypherdoc
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June 30, 2015, 10:37:19 PM
 #27952

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

I'm not interesting to buy your babbling  for 2 btc/month. I believe you had no problem if you received 2 btc. And I believe you had no problem if you received nothing.  -> I'll not get reach if I'll spend hours receiving your newsletter for free.

you are one of those devs who actually helped me realize that most of what some of you guys say is complete bullshit, aka fabricated armchair logic.

when i realized this, it was liberating.

actually, i have one last question.  if I simultaneous spending tx's how can I get rich by reading your newsletter for free?

i used to think, surely this dev must be running optimized simulations in the background that gives him some verified data to make these assertions, right?  or, at the very least, he's gone thru this situation before and has a foundation of knowledge in this area.  i would go quiet contemplating deeply what he had to say.

eventually, i realized no, it's complete bullshit.  he's just going thru a logic process winging it that i am more than capable of doing as well.

epiphany!

I do not know what devs do. (a lot of them are "running optimized simulations in the background that gives him some verified data to make these assertions"). And maybe a lot of them "gone thru this situation before and has a foundation of knowledge in this area".

What about you "Is it complete bullshit?"

no, what i say is based on what i learn here and elsewhere.

btw, you never answered why you're not rich yet doing your simultaneous double spends?
rocks
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June 30, 2015, 11:05:04 PM
 #27953

BitPay is not "accepted zero confirm transaction since 2013" until you are a US citizen and they know who is your grandma. -> So they know who you are and they know  how to apply law.

I just added credit to a NameCheap account using BitPay.  The credit arrived, and I was able to use it to buy hosting, before the transaction confirmed.  I also recently bought a Starbucks card using Gyft/BitPay and was able to use the card before the transaction confirmed.  

EDIT: And I'm not from the US nor registered with BitPay (does BitPay ever know who the buyer is?).

My pizza place uses BitPay, they accept blind pay-to address transactions with no registration or anything as zero confirm transactions, usually clears in 2-3 seconds, has since 2013. There is zero recourse for BitPay if I successfully cheat, but the network prevents that so BitPay works.

Odalv, you are so absolutely wrong here
tvbcof
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June 30, 2015, 11:05:20 PM
 #27954

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

Zero-conf transactions did make some sense for worthless things like your newsletter, but those days are behind us after half a decade or working on trying to fill 1MB blocks so a market could develop.


rocks
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June 30, 2015, 11:10:22 PM
 #27955

here is a little tidbit as to why full nodes might be failing during this stress test.  it makes sense:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3bmb5r/stress_test_in_full_effect/csnr4fi

We should have had more than one implementation/developer set/user group. Even a simple fork like XT could do, they could compete on timely bugfixing and other trivial usage related qualities.

I think there is a lot beyond bugfixing and trivial usage qualities they could compete on. There are real optimizations that could be done with pruning and other enhancements. Today these are being ignored for RBF changes and focus on LN and SC development. A set of devs working on an alternative core implementation that dedicate their time to improving the user experience, would develop a better implementation that attracts people over time.
cypherdoc
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June 30, 2015, 11:10:46 PM
 #27956

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

Zero-conf transactions did make some sense for worthless things like your newsletter, but those days are behind us after half a decade or working on trying to fill 1MB blocks so a market could develop.



during that time period, price went from $4 to $266.

guess if i was telling my subs to buy or sell?
tvbcof
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June 30, 2015, 11:22:45 PM
 #27957

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

Zero-conf transactions did make some sense for worthless things like your newsletter, but those days are behind us after half a decade or working on trying to fill 1MB blocks so a market could develop.


during that time period, price went from $4 to $266.

I was making the augment that BTC might be a good long term bet and doing so free of charge from $5-ish down to $2-ish as you might recall (though I shut my mouth at the bottom because I don't want to be a perma-pumper who loses people money.  Especially those who cannot afford it.)


guess if i was telling my subs to buy or sell?

I don't know what you told your subs, and never cared much.  You seem to have told everyone else to buy with both hands all the while the price was going from $1100 -> $200 or whatever.  I made it a point (and still do) to not sell under $600 and got some up in the 4-figure range.  If you were telling your subs to do as I did, great.  Maybe you were telling them buy Hashfast or whatever?  I was totally outside the loop on that one and to this day I don't even know what that is/was or that you were pumping it (if indeed you were.)  Whatever it was it doesn't sound like it worked out all that great.


Erdogan
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June 30, 2015, 11:23:58 PM
 #27958

here is a little tidbit as to why full nodes might be failing during this stress test.  it makes sense:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3bmb5r/stress_test_in_full_effect/csnr4fi

We should have had more than one implementation/developer set/user group. Even a simple fork like XT could do, they could compete on timely bugfixing and other trivial usage related qualities.

I think there is a lot beyond bugfixing and trivial usage qualities they could compete on. There are real optimizations that could be done with pruning and other enhancements. Today these are being ignored for RBF changes and focus on LN and SC development. A set of devs working on an alternative core implementation that dedicate their time to improving the user experience, would develop a better implementation that attracts people over time.

Bad quoting, bad.
TPTB_need_war
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June 30, 2015, 11:29:55 PM
 #27959

...since 9/11 was clearly not a attributable to handful of Muslims hiding out in caves half way around the world...

Seriously? Conspiracy theories are fun and all, but most require there to exist a level of perfection in coordination, execution, and secrecy in large organizations, or spanning far more individuals, than is rational to consider a real possibility.

No they don't.  That's why most of these false flags are about as clear as the nose on one's face when someone takes the time to look into them.  Thankfully we have an alternate media and interested individuals in society who, for whatever their set of reasons, will do just that.  We'll see how much longer that lasts now that the FCC has regulatory authority over the internet.  I'm guessing that they'll hold up about as well as Bitcoin when people attempt to use it in it's original P2P form.

Question: has anyone done a single interview with any of the workmen seen working in the elevator shafts of the twin towers in the weeks leading up to 9/11? Not that it would disprove the claims of truthers, but its non-existence is stark.

Before someone can conclude the impossible, I think they should at least refute those reports and/or produce an interview with one of those workmen.

I suppose Melbustus thinks the CIA doesn't have more than 1 or 2 agents sworn to lifetime secrecy under the threat of assassination should they violate the (perhaps unwritten) terms of their servitude. Just because we have a few cases of those who claim be ex-agents coming forward (not necessarily on the 9/11 issue), does not preclude the existence of different levels of secrecy clearances and ramifications for violating them.

I mean seriously grown men. We have a DEEP STATE with $trillions of funding taken from the unaccounted for DoD budget (per the former DoD secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the eve of 9/11 on national TV and other sources hence), and they can't secure the lifetime services a few good men  Huh

I wonder what sense of reality sheep like Melbustus and iCebreaker live in  Huh

cypherdoc
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June 30, 2015, 11:32:47 PM
 #27960

rock and cypherdoc please publish your list of services with zero confirmation transaction you provide.
I'm getting mad ...... I WANT TO BUY !!!

actually, back in the day, i used to do it all_the_time with my newsletter.  never a problem.

Zero-conf transactions did make some sense for worthless things like your newsletter, but those days are behind us after half a decade or working on trying to fill 1MB blocks so a market could develop.


during that time period, price went from $4 to $266.

I was making the augment that BTC might be a good long term bet and doing so free of charge from $5-ish down to $2-ish as you might recall (though I shut my mouth at the bottom because I don't want to be a perma-pumper who loses people money.  Especially those who cannot afford it.)

it was free of charge from me at the time, too.  altho i don't remember you saying much of anything.
Quote



guess if i was telling my subs to buy or sell?

I don't know what you told your subs, and never cared much.  You seem to have told everyone else to buy with both hands all the while the price was going from $1100 -> $200 or whatever.  I made it a point (and still do) to not sell under $600 and got some up in the 4-figure range.  If you were telling your subs to do as I did, great.  Maybe you were telling them buy Hashfast or whatever?  I was totally outside the loop on that one and to this day I don't even know what that is/was or that you were pumping it (if indeed you were.)  Whatever it was it doesn't sound like it worked out all that great.



i told them BUY during the time of the newsletter.  for whomever listened, it worked out great.
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