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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807850 times)
cypherdoc
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June 13, 2015, 05:00:11 PM
 #26441

among the other misperceptions that the anti-scaling tacticians are employing is about how Satoshi never meant for Bitcoin to reach Visa levels, or at least never considered it.  that's wrong too.  here he also talks about bandwidth:

Satoshi Nakamoto wrote:
> The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you
> think.  A typical transaction would be about 400 bytes
> (ECC is nicely compact).  Each transaction has to be
> broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction.
> Visa processed 37 billion transactions in FY2008, or
> an average of 100 million transactions per day.  That
> many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or
> the size of 12 DVD or 2 HD quality movies, or about
> $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices.



https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg10006.html
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justusranvier
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June 13, 2015, 05:04:21 PM
 #26442

you actually still listen to that guy? 

go here and search for the word "determined" and read that sentence.  satoshi talking about it on Nov 17, 2008 before the initial release is evidence he knew all along what the transitive motivation for miners would be.  besides, a good strategy of open source coding is to get a barely working implementation of a good idea out asap so that others can pick it apart and help contribute.

https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg10006.html
Is anyone keeping a list of lies told in the context of the block size limit debate?

"The number of nodes has dropped by 90%"
"Transaction fees were an afterthought added at the last minute"
cypherdoc
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June 13, 2015, 05:07:22 PM
 #26443

also, about this hangup about every single user being capable of running a full node:

Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe
for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section eight) to check for
double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or
about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run
network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the
network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to
specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.  
A server farm would
only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with
that one node.


https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg09964.html
cypherdoc
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June 13, 2015, 05:10:35 PM
 #26444

you actually still listen to that guy? 

go here and search for the word "determined" and read that sentence.  satoshi talking about it on Nov 17, 2008 before the initial release is evidence he knew all along what the transitive motivation for miners would be.  besides, a good strategy of open source coding is to get a barely working implementation of a good idea out asap so that others can pick it apart and help contribute.

https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg10006.html
Is anyone keeping a list of lies told in the context of the block size limit debate?

"The number of nodes has dropped by 90%"
"Transaction fees were an afterthought added at the last minute"


seems like a job for the Wall of Shame? 

but yes, should the core devs be held liable for any misperceptions spread?  after all, they are the stewards of the code and in a highly responsible and critical position.  Gavin understands this which is why he doesn't spend all day running his mouth on Reddit or here.
tvbcof
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June 13, 2015, 05:52:36 PM
 #26445

If you're going to argue that the "original" has some kind of terribly weight to it, then you need to come to grips with all the other ways it was originally broken.

what other things did Satoshi get wrong?

One of the most interesting things I heard recently is Todd's exploration of the commit logs and his findings that transaction fees themselves seemed to be an after-thought hacked in a month before the initial release.  Not sure what to make of this frankly.  The two options for support after the inflation is gone would be subsidization-for-exploitation (a-la e-mail) or transaction fees.  The later made a much more palatable sales pitch to my ears.

you actually still listen to that guy?

Sure.  I listen to everyone.  When a guy says the same thing over and over again (hint hint) it get's tedious and I tend to skim.  In the case of Peter Todd, he seems to be the among the most keenly aware that defensibly against subversion is the most critical thing to maintaining a value proposition of the blockchain which is a position I share.  He is also unusually good at spotting certain kinds of risks from a technical perspective.  I pay close attention to what he says though I don't run across him much these days.


go here and search for the word "determined" and read that sentence.  satoshi talking about it on Nov 17, 2008 before the initial release is evidence he knew all along what the transitive motivation for miners would be.  besides, a good strategy of open source coding is to get a barely working implementation of a good idea out asap so that others can pick it apart and help contribute.

https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg10006.html

Thanks for the link (really!)  I'd not run across that particular piece of mail, or don't remember the details and timings of things if I did.  I do find it interesting that you bloatchain folks cherry pick around the concept of transaction fees so blatantly in your attempts to get everyone buying coffee with native Bitcoin.  Of course these attempts have proven a laughable failure because Bitcoin is so deficient for this kind of a role, and it's failure has nothing to do with resistance and fees neither of which has been much of a factor over the last half-decade even at the 1MB setting.

Personally I don't put a lot of emphasis on what Satoshi thought or didn't think.  Times change and people's interpretations and philosophies change.  Mine have in various substantive ways.  If Satoshi actually was one guy (or even a group of guys) whatever he may have been thinking about before 2011 may not be what he would be thinking now.  Beyond that, it is perfectly possible that whatever he was thinking then OR now is not something I would agree with.  Since I don't believe in God I don't believe that he is/was one.

On Satoshi, it is worth note that the fallout of his 1MB setting was even the half-decade, an respectable 'market cap', and a lot of attention that has interceded the system can still be brought up with a cheap storage device, an affordable network connection, a bit of power, and a place to operate where one would not end up with a bullet in the head right away.  If this happy (to me) outcome was Satoshi hoped for with his cap, good on him.  If he was clever enough to sell it to those he found gathered around him at the time by being less than complete in his rational, even better.

Everyone and his brother has had the idea of hitching a highly subsidized ride on the blockchain for messenging, time-stamping, secure data storage, etc.  The 1MB setting has been the downfall of each.  Without it it is highly unlikely that the system would look like what we have today (and what I like very much.)  If/when the 1MB thing goes away there are a lot of these 'bad' ideas waiting in the wings to capitalize on the mistake.


justusranvier
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June 13, 2015, 06:09:30 PM
 #26446

Everyone and his brother has had the idea of hitching a highly subsidized ride on the blockchain for messenging, time-stamping, secure data storage, etc.  The 1MB setting has been the downfall of each.  Without it it is highly unlikely that the system would look like what we have today (and what I like very much.)  If/when the 1MB thing goes away there are a lot of these 'bad' ideas waiting in the wings to capitalize on the mistake.
As long as people pay for what people use, who are you to say what they should or should not put in the blockchain?

I suspect one reason I see so much resistance to the idea of fixing the network so that people do pay for what they use is precisely because then the people who want to dictate how Bitcoin can and can not be used suddenly will be unable to justify their position.
tvbcof
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June 13, 2015, 06:33:11 PM
 #26447


Everyone and his brother has had the idea of hitching a highly subsidized ride on the blockchain for messenging, time-stamping, secure data storage, etc.  The 1MB setting has been the downfall of each.  Without it it is highly unlikely that the system would look like what we have today (and what I like very much.)  If/when the 1MB thing goes away there are a lot of these 'bad' ideas waiting in the wings to capitalize on the mistake.

As long as people pay for what people use, who are you to say what they should or should not put in the blockchain?

Typical horseshit dipped in free-market chocolate and tuned chant from one of the masters.  In case it escaped you, large entities will happily give you a reach-around if you allow them to fuck you in the ass.  That distorts any campy 'free-market' dynamics completely beyond recognition.


I suspect one reason I see so much resistance to the idea of fixing the network so that people do pay for what they use is precisely because then the people who want to dictate how Bitcoin can and can not be used suddenly will be unable to justify their position.

All systems are designed with constraints which define how they will exist in the real world.  The constraints on utilization rate in Bitcoin has a DIRECT bearing on how the support infrastructure evolves.  I (pretty much alone as far as I can tell) rate the utilization rate to be a more important design feature than the inflationary parameters.  This because I rate defensibly so highly as the value proposition of a distributed crypto-currency.

Because of the fairly impressive and technical work of the Blockstream guys on their sidechains stuff, sidechains can likely become a nearly perfect proxy for BTC itself and do so without straining the native utilization rate configuration which keeps it potentially secure.  Coupled with the ability to custom tune solutions to particular niches, this is a significantly more ideal outcome than simply growing the native system even if that were safe to do.


justusranvier
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June 13, 2015, 06:49:55 PM
 #26448

Typical horseshit dipped in free-market chocolate and tuned chant from one of the masters.  In case it escaped you, large entities will happily give you a reach-around if you allow them to fuck you in the ass.  That distorts any campy 'free-market' dynamics completely beyond recognition.
Great argument,
TPTB_need_war
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June 13, 2015, 07:15:28 PM
 #26449

Because I am not up-to-speed on communicating with the Monero devs (on Github or other back channels), and because my efficiency is my utmost priority and given posting in this forum is the most efficient way for me to communicate my thoughts to all that follow me, I will post this somewhat out-of-band comment here in hopes of getting a response from smooth (or if need be tacotime or fluffypony).

I do not have time to read various Monero research papers and otherwise dig to see if the following concern is already addressed.

I am concerned about a hole in the anonymity of Cryptonote ring signatures. I had sort of described this issue to smooth (who apparently relayed it to all) when I was contemplating ways that BCX might unmask the anonymity of users. I do not recall if I made this specific weakness explicit as follows.

If the actual input to a transaction (in Monero terminology this is the output of the prior transaction) is not also an input to another transaction's ring signature (and when all the other inputs to the ring are spent) or if it is also the input to a subsequent ring in which all the other inputs were outputs created after the said transaction was created, then the anonymity of the said transaction is entirely unmasked.

Combinatorial trees can be searched as well, thus even if only some of the other inputs were outputs created after the said input was created, this could cascade into unmasking the anonymity or at least reducing the anonymity set. And note the anonymity set also vulnerable to further reduction by out-of-band attacks such as IP de-obfuscation, rubber hoses, stolen private keys, hacked users, etc.

There are some tweaks that need to be made to insure the above is unlikely. Hopefully Monero is enforcing some restrictions already on which outputs can be used in ring inputs? If not, they need to get on it pronto.

P.S. for those who thought I wasn't sincerely attempting to help Monero during the BCX incident, I hope the above satisfies you. I think before I had an agreement with the Monero devs (via smooth) not to write publicly all the details of the above weakness in order to give them time to address it. I think they've had sufficient time and I want to make sure this is addressed.

fluffypony
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GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com


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June 13, 2015, 08:22:41 PM
 #26450

If the actual input to a transaction (in Monero terminology this is the output of the prior transaction) is not also an input to another transaction's ring signature (and when all the other inputs to the ring are spent) or if it is also the input to a subsequent ring in which all the other inputs were outputs created after the said transaction was created, then the anonymity of the said transaction is entirely unmasked.

This is really what MRL-0004 deals with (the section on Temporal Association attacks).

A lot of this changes with the recommendations MRL4 made, which will come in a hard fork later this year (once we've established a forking strategy, per this forum post).

I don't check this thread, so if you reply and don't hear back from me in a couple of days just send me a PM nudging me:)

majamalu
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June 13, 2015, 08:31:48 PM
 #26451


In case it escaped you, large entities will happily give you a reach-around if you allow them to fuck you in the ass.


You mean I should be afraid that Mcdonald's may send a hitman instead of a cheeseburger?

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
macsga
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Strange, yet attractive.


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June 13, 2015, 08:41:13 PM
 #26452


In case it escaped you, large entities will happily give you a reach-around if you allow them to fuck you in the ass.


You mean I should be afraid that Mcdonald's may send a hitmen instead of a cheeseburger?

Cheeseburger IS, in essence, a hitman (it will only kill you slowly)... Wink

majamalu
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June 13, 2015, 08:47:39 PM
 #26453


In case it escaped you, large entities will happily give you a reach-around if you allow them to fuck you in the ass.


You mean I should be afraid that Mcdonald's may send a hitman instead of a cheeseburger?

Cheeseburger IS, in essence, a hitman (it will only kill you slowly)... Wink

As Voltaire said when he was informed by his physician that coffee was a “slow, steady poison”: “Yes, it must be a slow poison, it has been poisoning me for over seventy years!”   Cheesy

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
TPTB_need_war
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June 13, 2015, 08:53:14 PM
 #26454

If the actual input to a transaction (in Monero terminology this is the output of the prior transaction) is not also an input to another transaction's ring signature (and when all the other inputs to the ring are spent) or if it is also the input to a subsequent ring in which all the other inputs were outputs created after the said transaction was created, then the anonymity of the said transaction is entirely unmasked.

This is really what MRL-0004 deals with (the section on Temporal Association attacks).

A lot of this changes with the recommendations MRL4 made, which will come in a hard fork later this year (once we've established a forking strategy, per this forum post).

I don't check this thread, so if you reply and don't hear back from me in a couple of days just send me a PM nudging me:)

The MRL4 imperfect heuristic mitigations notwithstanding, the only absolute solution is to require that sets of outputs be mixed with and only with each other (and the number of inputs per ring must be constant). This also enables pruning the Cryptonote block chain. There I have just given away one of my prior design "secrets" (that I no longer need to keep secret because I stumbled onto a consensus network design which no longer needs pruning and is transaction technology agnostic). Perhaps others already suggested this?

P.S. for those who have already spent their coins to a third party, your hard fork will come too late. Hope you can make necessary improvements sooner.

solex
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100 satoshis -> ISO code


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June 14, 2015, 12:01:38 AM
 #26455

Changing the supply limit fundamentally destroys bitcoin, but increasing the blocksize limit is absolutely needed to make it successful.

Thanks for the distilled wisdom!

I have updated my sig.

TPTB_need_war
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June 14, 2015, 12:13:20 AM
 #26456

Changing the supply limit fundamentally destroys bitcoin, but increasing the blocksize limit is absolutely needed to make it successful.

Oh the strawmen strive for a world with only two opposing choices.

solex
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June 14, 2015, 12:15:53 AM
 #26457

Changing the supply limit fundamentally destroys bitcoin, but increasing the blocksize limit is absolutely needed to make it successful.

Oh the strawmen strive for a world with only two opposing choices.

The perfect is the enemy of the good

TPTB_need_war
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June 14, 2015, 12:22:23 AM
 #26458

One of the reasons I think it's important to be cautious here is so that we can have CT (or a superior successor technology) in the Bitcoin network and not just in a sidechain.

And when the 50% attack has been rendered impossible by some new design, then it no longer becomes necessary to retrofit the Core Bitcoin network. That will radically alter the impact of what you are about to unleash.

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June 14, 2015, 12:38:06 AM
 #26459

But to reach 100k tps will still be tough regardless of implementation.

My design has no theoretical limit on TPS. It will be published this year and I hope within a couple of months.
There always is bottleneck as long as there is physics

My consensus network PoW design places no theoretical limit on the TPS. Physics will still place a limit else where (i.e. aggregate bandwidth of the entire internet), but that limit won't be at the layer of the consensus network. In short, I don't see any practical limit yet, but I caution there has been no peer review. And I've been pretty much overloaded while making this discovery, so it is possible I've overlooked a flaw. I don't think so. The one flaw I'm contemplating is how to set the minimum transaction fees to avoid a Sybil attack while retaining decentralization of that adjustment. But Bitcoin has the analogous dilemma in that if block size is unlimited then attacks are possible (unless also set a minimum transaction fee) and these constants are not set with a decentralized process. So at least my design seems to have the potential of a great leap forward, even if the Holy Grail of decentralization will never quite be entirely devoid of politics.

marcus_of_augustus
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June 14, 2015, 01:10:40 AM
 #26460

It's possible that the covert power grab of the manufactured "governance crisis" by gavin and the MIT g-men may have unintended consequences of their own. (I never took gavin for a blockhead or a hot-head, as he has come across in this debate, but now it is clear there are ulterior motives that fit the observed behaviour much better. Now he just seems like a regular, Machiavellian, conniving politician, it's like he has been media-coached by Hearn.)

Red-team blue-team politics is cat-nip for attracting and fostering interest. We even have referee Garzik to keep the fight clean.

Go at it guys but careful you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

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