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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010224 times)
Mixles
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June 14, 2015, 09:09:57 PM
 #26441

The one good thing to have come out of Blockstream is the confidential values technique for blinding output amounts.

They hide only the mantissa part of the number and take 2.5KB to achieve that.

My confidential values technique hides the whole number in 0.4KB (subject to ongoing peer review, positive so far).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085436.msg11597427#msg11597427

Can confidential values be implemented without a sidechain/directly on the mainchain?

Yes.

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Zangelbert Bingledack
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June 14, 2015, 09:36:48 PM
 #26442

I think Gavin should de-hitch his wagon from Mike Hearn after hearing how Mike proposed centralized checkpointing. The blacklisting thing was his one free pass at a really horrible idea. Now it just looks like he doesn't get what Bitcoin is really about.

I can see why Gavin would utilize XT as an end-run around the political gridlock in core, and I also see that Mike Hearn has a unique perspective and background that is useful, but he should not be a core committer in my opinion. Gavin is the only person qualified to (provisionally) lead the project as far as I can see now, but I think "palling around with Mike Hearn" will be viewed with suspicion, especially if it's unnecessary. Why not just just add in the patch to Core and fork off if necessary?
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June 14, 2015, 09:41:49 PM
 #26443

I think Gavin should de-hitch his wagon from Mike Hearn after hearing how Mike proposed centralized checkpointing. The blacklisting thing was his one free pass at a really horrible idea. Now it just looks like he doesn't get what Bitcoin is really about.

I can see why Gavin would utilize XT as an end-run around the political gridlock in core, and I also see that Mike Hearn has a unique perspective and background that is useful, but he should not be a core committer in my opinion. Gavin is the only person qualified to (provisionally) lead the project as far as I can see now, but I think "palling around with Mike Hearn" will be viewed with suspicion, especially if it's unnecessary. Why not just just add in the patch to Core and fork off if necessary?
https://github.com/btcsuite/btcd
cypherdoc
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June 14, 2015, 09:43:23 PM
 #26444

I think Gavin should de-hitch his wagon from Mike Hearn after hearing how Mike proposed centralized checkpointing. The blacklisting thing was his one free pass at a really horrible idea. Now it just looks like he doesn't get what Bitcoin is really about.

I can see why Gavin would utilize XT as an end-run around the political gridlock in core, and I also see that Mike Hearn has a unique perspective and background that is useful, but he should not be a core committer in my opinion. Gavin is the only person qualified to (provisionally) lead the project as far as I can see now, but I think "palling around with Mike Hearn" will be viewed with suspicion, especially if it's unnecessary. Why not just just add in the patch to Core and fork off if necessary?

i too think that Gavin has to explicitly state that he will be the lead core dev for XT.  i don't have as much of a problem as you seem to have with Hearn being a core dev for XT as long as Gavin has the last word.  the other good thing is that Gavin can bring in a whole new core dev crew with more academic expertise with more of a like mind towards sound money, which is a big part with how i see these differences btwn Gavin and Greg. 

the checkpoint thing Hearns was talking about was only if there were 2 persistent chains with XT being a minority.  i don't think that will happen.
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June 14, 2015, 09:51:01 PM
 #26445

I think Gavin should de-hitch his wagon from Mike Hearn after hearing how Mike proposed centralized checkpointing. The blacklisting thing was his one free pass at a really horrible idea. Now it just looks like he doesn't get what Bitcoin is really about.

I can see why Gavin would utilize XT as an end-run around the political gridlock in core, and I also see that Mike Hearn has a unique perspective and background that is useful, but he should not be a core committer in my opinion. Gavin is the only person qualified to (provisionally) lead the project as far as I can see now, but I think "palling around with Mike Hearn" will be viewed with suspicion, especially if it's unnecessary. Why not just just add in the patch to Core and fork off if necessary?

I'd agree if you're referring to that interview he did, he didn't do the goal of decentralized control any good.

I'm still open to XT, just not sure he's a good "Linus Torvalds"

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
tvbcof
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June 14, 2015, 09:58:12 PM
 #26446

I think Gavin should de-hitch his wagon from Mike Hearn after hearing how Mike proposed centralized checkpointing. The blacklisting thing was his one free pass at a really horrible idea. Now it just looks like he doesn't get what Bitcoin is really about.

I can see why Gavin would utilize XT as an end-run around the political gridlock in core, and I also see that Mike Hearn has a unique perspective and background that is useful, but he should not be a core committer in my opinion. Gavin is the only person qualified to (provisionally) lead the project as far as I can see now, but I think "palling around with Mike Hearn" will be viewed with suspicion, especially if it's unnecessary. Why not just just add in the patch to Core and fork off if necessary?

I'd agree if you're referring to that interview he did, he didn't do the goal of decentralized control any good.

If you've been paying attention there is nothing new in Mike's recent activities.  Granted, they have become a little more audacious of late.  Probably an artifact of getting pretty much complete control of Gavin and an element of desperation given the fairly amazing progress made by the Blockstream folk.  His half-decade long hopes for the system (a monitoring tool controllable by his beloved leaders in mainstreamland) are fluttering away.


cypherdoc
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June 14, 2015, 10:18:45 PM
 #26447

not starting off the week well.  they got 15 hrs to rescue this:

thebigtalk
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June 14, 2015, 10:32:05 PM
 #26448

not starting off the week well.  they got 15 hrs to rescue this:



I don't want this ending up stable in 220-ish again. Hope they'll be able to pull it up again. There's a thread I just saw around about the upcoming rise. What do you guys think about that?
marcus_of_augustus
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June 14, 2015, 11:34:20 PM
 #26449

The one good thing to have come out of Blockstream is the confidential values technique for blinding output amounts.

What if that technique outlives sidechains and Blockstream?

Perhaps it is time you declared what Monetas's position is on blocksize? And if there is anything in your contracts that allow opt-out "for the betterment of bitcoin" if you become conflicted? You know the same clauses that key blockstream employees have that cypherdoc has glossed over many times in his persistent smearing, defamation and character assassination that you seem to be supporting curiously ...

cypherdoc: how's the hashfast debacle progressing? Been sued for your involvement in that scam yet?

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June 14, 2015, 11:39:27 PM
 #26450

The one good thing to have come out of Blockstream is the confidential values technique for blinding output amounts.

What if that technique outlives sidechains and Blockstream?

Perhaps it is time you declared what Monetas's position is on blocksize? And if there is anything in your contracts that allow opt-out "for the betterment of bitcoin" if you become conflicted? You know the same clauses that key blockstream employees have that cypherdoc has glossed over many times in his persistent smearing, defamation and character assassination that you seem to be supporting curiously ...

cypherdoc: how's the hashfast debacle progressing? Been sued for your involvement in that scam yet?

at least i have the self control not to become as venomous as you.

is this a crusade for you?  you honor me for putting me up on such a pedestal.
Cconvert2G36
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June 14, 2015, 11:48:31 PM
 #26451

If you're not catching flak, you're not over the target.
marcus_of_augustus
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June 14, 2015, 11:51:32 PM
 #26452

I think Gavin should de-hitch his wagon from Mike Hearn after hearing how Mike proposed centralized checkpointing. The blacklisting thing was his one free pass at a really horrible idea. Now it just looks like he doesn't get what Bitcoin is really about.

I can see why Gavin would utilize XT as an end-run around the political gridlock in core, and I also see that Mike Hearn has a unique perspective and background that is useful, but he should not be a core committer in my opinion. Gavin is the only person qualified to (provisionally) lead the project as far as I can see now, but I think "palling around with Mike Hearn" will be viewed with suspicion, especially if it's unnecessary. Why not just just add in the patch to Core and fork off if necessary?

I'd agree if you're referring to that interview he did, he didn't do the goal of decentralized control any good.

If you've been paying attention there is nothing new in Mike's recent activities.  Granted, they have become a little more audacious of late.  Probably an artifact of getting pretty much complete control of Gavin and an element of desperation given the fairly amazing progress made by the Blockstream folk.  His half-decade long hopes for the system (a monitoring tool controllable by his beloved leaders in mainstreamland) are fluttering away.

I'm glad someone else is paying attention. The productivity of the current crop of core devs has outpaced the surveillance branch and Gavin's threat to fork is a desperate attempt to regain control, which is fast slipping away from them, just through sheer innovation. They are losing in the meritocracy stakes.

Gavin's last major contribution was back-dooring bitcoin privacy through the broken X.409 bolt-on kludge, 'payments security' (theatre). He is not a leader in content, quality or name any longer as far as I am concerned. And he still needs to come clean about how much and when he knew about the Bitcoin Foundation collapse, after drawing a salary from them for so long and being the sole reason it was instituted. He seems to be in a hurry to distance himself from that particular fiasco.

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June 14, 2015, 11:53:48 PM
 #26453

The one good thing to have come out of Blockstream is the confidential values technique for blinding output amounts.

What if that technique outlives sidechains and Blockstream?

Perhaps it is time you declared what Monetas's position is on blocksize? And if there is anything in your contracts that allow opt-out "for the betterment of bitcoin" if you become conflicted? You know the same clauses that key blockstream employees have that cypherdoc has glossed over many times in his persistent smearing, defamation and character assassination that you seem to be supporting curiously ...

cypherdoc: how's the hashfast debacle progressing? Been sued for your involvement in that scam yet?

at least i have the self control not to become as venomous as you.

is this a crusade for you?  you honor me for putting me up on such a pedestal.

do unto others as you would have them do unto you ...

cypherdoc
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June 14, 2015, 11:59:50 PM
 #26454

The one good thing to have come out of Blockstream is the confidential values technique for blinding output amounts.

What if that technique outlives sidechains and Blockstream?

Perhaps it is time you declared what Monetas's position is on blocksize? And if there is anything in your contracts that allow opt-out "for the betterment of bitcoin" if you become conflicted? You know the same clauses that key blockstream employees have that cypherdoc has glossed over many times in his persistent smearing, defamation and character assassination that you seem to be supporting curiously ...

cypherdoc: how's the hashfast debacle progressing? Been sued for your involvement in that scam yet?

at least i have the self control not to become as venomous as you.

is this a crusade for you?  you honor me for putting me up on such a pedestal.

do unto others as you would have them do unto you ...

do you ever have any real arguments to bring to the debate?  or is it always just slander and defamation with you?
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June 15, 2015, 12:08:18 AM
 #26455

The one good thing to have come out of Blockstream is the confidential values technique for blinding output amounts.

What if that technique outlives sidechains and Blockstream?

Perhaps it is time you declared what Monetas's position is on blocksize? And if there is anything in your contracts that allow opt-out "for the betterment of bitcoin" if you become conflicted? You know the same clauses that key blockstream employees have that cypherdoc has glossed over many times in his persistent smearing, defamation and character assassination that you seem to be supporting curiously ...

cypherdoc: how's the hashfast debacle progressing? Been sued for your involvement in that scam yet?

at least i have the self control not to become as venomous as you.

is this a crusade for you?  you honor me for putting me up on such a pedestal.

do unto others as you would have them do unto you ...

do you ever have any real arguments to bring to the debate?  or is it always just slander and defamation with you?

Unfortunately that is the standard you have set in your own thread, and on reddit also it seems. I'm just obliging after you choose to play the man and not the ball, on enough occasions now to show that it is not just a fluke, but you are intent on poisoning the debate and swerving away from legitimate technical discussion. Endlessly parroting character smears doesn't make them real.

I kind of regret that I may have armed you with so many big words and concepts that you might actually sound convincingly smart enough to be dangerous, to the unwary reader.

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June 15, 2015, 12:13:50 AM
 #26456

The one good thing to have come out of Blockstream is the confidential values technique for blinding output amounts.

What if that technique outlives sidechains and Blockstream?

Perhaps it is time you declared what Monetas's position is on blocksize? And if there is anything in your contracts that allow opt-out "for the betterment of bitcoin" if you become conflicted? You know the same clauses that key blockstream employees have that cypherdoc has glossed over many times in his persistent smearing, defamation and character assassination that you seem to be supporting curiously ...

cypherdoc: how's the hashfast debacle progressing? Been sued for your involvement in that scam yet?

at least i have the self control not to become as venomous as you.

is this a crusade for you?  you honor me for putting me up on such a pedestal.

do unto others as you would have them do unto you ...

do you ever have any real arguments to bring to the debate?  or is it always just slander and defamation with you?

Unfortunately that is the standard you have set in your own thread, and on reddit also it seems. I'm just obliging after you choose to play the man and not the ball, on enough occasions now to show that it is not just a fluke, but you are intent on poisoning the debate and swerving away from legitimate technical discussion. Endlessly parroting character smears doesn't make them real.

I kind of regret that I may have armed you with so many big words and concepts that you might actually sound convincingly smart enough to be dangerous, to the unwary reader.

lots and lots of big words.  never any justification for preventing Bitcoin from fulfilling it's original vision:

Satoshi Nakamoto wrote:
> The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you
> think.
 A typical transaction would be about 400 bytes
> (ECC is nicely compact).  Each transaction has to be
> broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction.
> Visa processed 37 billion transactions in FY2008, or
> an average of 100 million transactions per day.  That
> many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or
> the size of 12 DVD or 2 HD quality movies, or about
> $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices.



https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg10006.html
gmaxwell
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June 15, 2015, 12:23:02 AM
 #26457

lots and lots of big words.  never any justification for preventing Bitcoin from fulfilling it's original vision:
Your selective quoting ignores how this was a response to a 'how could this possibly work at all'.  I've used the same kind of response to "omg flooding network! how could that possibly work! it's completely non-scalable!" -- to point out that even non-scalable can achieve some remarkable stuff.  This doesn't answer any particular question about the exact tradeoff that works, but works to wake people up.  Particular because before Bitcoin the alternative was exclusively centralized systems so when you show that if you don't care about decentralization (which you must not if you question the value it provides compared to all that came before) then it can reach arbitrarily high scale.

We can't hope to guess at what anyone from back then would think about the current state of the world, though we do know that e.g. the current mining ecosystem would have been regarded as a system failure from the original precepts; and we also know that decentralization and autonomy were principle motivations for the creation of the system in the first place.

While I'm here, hows your Bitcoin Spinoffs project going, Cypherdoc?

Bitcoin will not be compromised
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June 15, 2015, 12:24:05 AM
 #26458

marcus and his character assassins like to argue that Bitcoin should be a "settlement currency". 

how can it ever be a settlement currency when it's use is currently confined to a small group of users?  let alone when the Blockstream plan is to shunt the vast majority of tx's to SC's or LN preventing our transition to mining paid for by tx fees?

it's a ludicrous economic plan that will cause Bitcoin itself to wither and die.  but when your business model depends on SC consulting fees it will be quite lucrative; in USD.
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June 15, 2015, 12:30:29 AM
 #26459

lots and lots of big words.  never any justification for preventing Bitcoin from fulfilling it's original vision:
Your selective quoting ignores how this was a response to a 'how could this possibly work at all'.  I've used the same kind of response to "omg flooding network! how could that possibly work! it's completely non-scalable!" -- to point out that even non-scalable can achieve some remarkable stuff.  This doesn't answer any particular question about the exact tradeoff that works, but works to wake people up.  Particular because before Bitcoin the alternative was exclusively centralized systems so when you show that if you don't care about decentralization (which you must not if you question the value it provides compared to all that came before) then it can reach arbitrarily high scale.

We can't hope to guess at what anyone from back then would think about the current state of the world, though we do know that e.g. the current mining ecosystem would have been regarded as a system failure from the original precepts; and we also know that decentralization and autonomy were principle motivations for the creation of the system in the first place.

While I'm here, hows your Bitcoin Spinoffs project going, Cypherdoc?

hey Greg, do you even understand the concept of "financial conflict"?  if 6 of the Fed Bd of Governors were to set up a for profit company that directly benefitted from the institution of a particular new rule applied to US monetary policy, what would you say to that?

btw, Spinoffs is not my project; it's PeterR's.  i haven't commented in that thread for probably a year or so.
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June 15, 2015, 12:35:55 AM
 #26460

As a point of order; since this seems to be a common and oft-exploited set of misconceptions.

I think Gavin should de-hitch his wagon from Mike Hearn after hearing how Mike proposed centralized checkpointing. The blacklisting thing was his one free pass at a really horrible idea. Now it just looks like he doesn't get what Bitcoin is really about.
Or the proposals to add censorship to tor that _seriously_ pissed off the tor developers? Or the coin confiscation proposal? Or the near constant, first short recourse to centralized, authoritarian solutions-- at a level of consistency that it would be a comedy if it weren't so sad?

Quote
I can see why Gavin would utilize XT as an end-run around the political gridlock in core, and I also see that Mike Hearn has a unique perspective and background that is useful, but he should not be a core committer in my opinion. Gavin is the only person qualified to (provisionally) lead the project as far as I can see now, but I think "palling around with Mike Hearn" will be viewed with suspicion, especially if it's unnecessary. Why not just just add in the patch to Core and fork off if necessary?
Mike has never been a core committer-- he's only ever submitted a couple patches, in fact.  His work has been mostly on BitcoinJ, which is whats used by android wallet and multibit hd. He's certainly knowledgeable about the Bitcoin system, so I point this out only as a correction-in-fact not a judgement statement.

Gavin does not lead the Bitcoin Core project-- the project lead is Wladimir and has been for some time (and I mean this in actual documented agreed on roles, and not just in terms of activities), and Gavin has been largely inactive for the last year (I don't say this to complain-- he was very busy with troubled times at the Bitcoin foundation).


hey Greg, do you even understand the concept of "financial conflict"?  if 6 of the Fed Bd of Governors were to set up a for profit company that directly benefitted from the institution of a particular new rule applied to US monetary policy, what would you say to that?
btw, Spinoffs is not my project; it's PeterR's.  i haven't commented in that thread for probably a year or so.
marcus and his character assassins like to argue that Bitcoin should be a "settlement currency".  
how can it ever be a settlement currency when it's use is currently confined to a small group of users?  let alone when the Blockstream plan is to shunt the vast majority of tx's to SC's or LN preventing our transition to mining paid for by tx fees?
it's a ludicrous economic plan that will cause Bitcoin itself to wither and die.  but when your business model depends on SC consulting fees it will be quite lucrative; in USD.

You have some comparison a bit backwards there, there are other people lobbing for a sudden rule change to the system-- against substantial controversy and out from under the preferences of a substantial minority (e.g. your poll shows a quarter in opposition) whos interest you might want to explore.

Two of the Five people with commit access to Bitcoin core (or a half dozen out of a hundred contributors) created Blockstream to build some important tech that we the space need (and had been lamenting it's non-existence for a long time before we went and found a way to fund doing it!). As the primary technical innovators in this space (certainly if you exclude altcoin work) we can be assured good consulting incomes so long as we keep doing good, important, quality work-- regardless of what happens with SC or LN... and we have a _long_ backlog of powerful technology that we couldn't release for use in Bitcoin without it just ending up in an altcoin before the prospect of sidechains.  But no matter what you protest, you cannot stop LN or SC from existing in some form or another; and they offer advantages Bitcoin by itself fundamentally cannot: e.g. LN can give _instantly_ irreversible payments-- think of all the applications that hold of on using Bitcoin for lack of that; but it's not possible in the plain Bitcoin system.  Look at CT-- we can't just go and try that in Bitcoin and figure out how to advance it, prior to SC there was no avenue to adapt to new needs without picking switching from Bitcoin to a competing currency. None of these things have anything to do with block size, and-- in fact, both SC and LN _strongly_ prefer the biggest blocksize the network can handle.  What they can't tolerate, however, is Bitcoin being very centralized-- and I don't think your own interests can tolerate that either (assuming you still own some Bitcoin).

I bring up spinoffs beyond it just being an honest question because it was your argument on these points-- why worry about what happens to bitcoin when we can create some altcoin that enriches the existing bitcoin holders.  I don't know how much this perspective influences your position here, arguably a spinnoff perspective would strongly prefer original bitcoin would fail, it it would just transfer ownership into a new network before people notice and buy up their coins on the cheap as the developers of counterparty did. ::shrugs:: It's easy to throw rocks about conflicts of interest. But the reality is that the arguments I've presented are straightforward, coherent, extend long before any plausibly argued conflict of interest, and are shared to some degree or another by almost everyone in the technical space, including ones which no amount of fevered imagination can construct a coherent conflict of interest story.

(And at least in my case you know who I am, what business I'm in, what my history is, heck I've even shared details of my employment contract with you---- this is not the same for most other people. But even with that opacity, it's easy to find "shadows" of conflict of interest, if someone wants take your approach of claiming any that can be claimed whenever it supports an argument)

Though back to your question, if you've given up on spinoffs as a salvation-- what do you think is going to make Bitcoin competative against the eventual altcoin that actually gets the formula right and makes significant, no compromise, technical advantages over Bitcoin--- and probably doesn't bother to cut you in on it?  Keep in mind, most of the people we hope will some day use Bitcoin haven't even been born yet.  Unless we fail and sully the potential for cryptocurrency in the public's mind, this is only the very beginning of a long history.


Bitcoin will not be compromised
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