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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804652 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 21, 2015, 02:29:54 AM
 #26961

tvbcof is being brash about 2d tie ups.  that would be a catastrophic loss of his coins in a SC failure.  he'd never get his scBTC mined back to BTC.

FUD.

we know Larry Summers...

...take on the impending Greek crisis

gatekeepers (u+he)

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smooth
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June 21, 2015, 02:31:36 AM
 #26962

yeah, but as stated by the Chinese miners, they don't have superior connectivity.  in fact, it's lower connectivity.  thus, how can these largest 5 miners of all be a problem to small miners?

I'm not going to comment on the specifics of some Chinese miners and what connectivity they specifically have, between each other and with miners outside China. I also don't think it matters much and find it hard to believe you think that matters. In a year or a few years the network might look entirely different. But there will still always be a range of connectivity (and other resources for that matter) available to miners. That is the more important issue.

The term "anti-spam" means exactly preventing abusers from submitting more volume of activity into the system as a whole than the system as a whole can handle. That "system as a whole" includes a large (ideally decentralized) network that exists over a wide range of geographic, economic, and technological constraints. Again I fail to see what improvements have been made in ability of the system to absorb spam, aside from relatively modest improvements in the underlying bandwidth, storage, etc., since 1 MB that would justify an 8x or 20x increase in that limit.
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June 21, 2015, 02:33:45 AM
 #26963

tvbcof, I agree with you that two days isn't out of the question for critical and high-value transactions, but Bitcoin main chain handles those perfectly well too, without the added cost and delay, and without security compromises. The competitive advantage of involving a sidechain specifically for critical or high value transactions is nil or negative.

Cripes smooth wtf happened to you? Has the real smooth been kidnapped?

Er. Anonymity? Hiding the value of that transaction with Blockstream's C.T.?

cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 02:47:09 AM
 #26964

yeah, but as stated by the Chinese miners, they don't have superior connectivity.  in fact, it's lower connectivity.  thus, how can these largest 5 miners of all be a problem to small miners?

I'm not going to comment on the specifics of some Chinese miners and what connectivity they specifically have, between each other and with miners outside China. I also don't think it matters much and find it hard to believe you think that matters. In a year or a few years the network might look entirely different. But there will still always be a range of connectivity (and other resources for that matter) available to miners. That is the more important issue.

actually, i'm not the one who brought up the attack initially.  it was the 1MB'ers obsessing about yet another theoretical attack that has now been debunked.
Quote

The term "anti-spam" means exactly preventing abusers from submitting more volume of activity into the system as a whole than the system as a whole can handle. That "system as a whole" includes a large (ideally decentralized) network that exists over a wide range of geographic, economic, and technological constraints. Again I fail to see what improvements have been made in ability of the system to absorb spam, aside from relatively modest improvements in the underlying bandwidth, storage, etc., since 1 MB that would justify an 8x or 20x increase in that limit.

5 yr after 1MB, the network is much bigger, stronger, and more resilient.  one can always obsess about these theoretical problems but the fact is that Bitcoin hasn't been broken and hasn't been attacked.  there are quite a few network experts who've agreed with Gavin that scaling shouldn't be a problem.  of course, the proof is in the pudding.
smooth
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June 21, 2015, 02:47:43 AM
 #26965

tvbcof, I agree with you that two days isn't out of the question for critical and high-value transactions, but Bitcoin main chain handles those perfectly well too, without the added cost and delay, and without security compromises. The competitive advantage of involving a sidechain specifically for critical or high value transactions is nil or negative.

Cripes smooth wtf happened to you? Has the real smooth been kidnapped?

Er. Anonymity? Hiding the value of that transaction with Blockstream's C.T.?

I've never been sold on that until and unless a sidechain becomes so popular that cypherdoc's fear of all the value being sucked out of the main chain and decoupling is realized, which makes the new chain just a replacement for Bitcoin, and again side chains don't continue to exist in a meaningful sense. (And obviously in that case my objection to failing to share Bitcoin's network effect doesn't exist either.)

In order to make that critical high-value transaction you are going to have to move a high volume of BTC to the sidechain, then perform the tranasction, then move the high-value back. Both sides of that will be not only visible but highly conspicuous on the Bitcoin blockchain. Neither you nor the recipient is likely to want to keep your high-value on a side chain for an indefinite period of time with worse security.



smooth
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June 21, 2015, 02:52:06 AM
 #26966

5 yr after 1MB, the network is much bigger, stronger, and more resilient.

Is the capacity of the network to handle large blocks 8x bigger, or 20x bigger? Is there a high degree of confidence that it can handle 1000x bigger blocks in 15 years?

I think the answer to all of these questions, as a purely factual technical matter is no.

As I said I would support a smaller increase and a smaller automatic rate of increase going forward. But an immediate 8x along with 2x every two years is reckless, just as an immediate 20x was (in fact worse imo)

The other thing nobody seems to address is that even these rates of scaling don't really do that much. 8x a few transactions per second is still only a few (maybe 20) transactions per second. Even 1000x does not reach globe-spanning capacity with everything everyone might want to do being handled on-chain. So all of the off-chain and demand-limiting fee increases stuff that big-block proponents are worried about is going to happen anyway.

TPTB_need_war
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June 21, 2015, 02:54:15 AM
 #26967

In order to make that critical high-value transaction you are going to have to move a high volume of BTC to the sidechain

Unless you buy BTC on the sidechain to start with. For example, they spend BTC to buy mining hardware to mine anonymously. Isn't that how you got your XMR.

And anonymity is not likely the only feature that can appeal to slower transactions from the high valued demographic.

You can see every possible feature now? Wow you are omniscient.

And slow transfers between Core and side chains for high valued is not the only case, as I pointed out upthread.

smooth
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June 21, 2015, 02:56:06 AM
 #26968

In order to make that critical high-value transaction you are going to have to move a high volume of BTC to the sidechain

Unless you buy BTC on the sidechain to start with. For example, they spend BTC to buy mining hardware to mine anonymously. Isn't that how you got your XMR.

It's hard to envision how this works in the foreseeable future. If you buy mining equipment and mine the merged-mined sidechain, the vast majority of your rewards will still be main chain BTC. You will get only some small fees in sidechain coins.
TPTB_need_war
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June 21, 2015, 02:56:59 AM
 #26969

In order to make that critical high-value transaction you are going to have to move a high volume of BTC to the sidechain

Unless you buy BTC on the sidechain to start with. For example, they spend BTC to buy mining hardware to mine anonymously. Isn't that how you got your XMR.

It's hard to envision how this works in the foreseeable future. If you buy mining equipment and mine the merged-mined sidechain, the vast majority of your rewards will still be main chain BTC. You will get only some small fees in sidechain coins.

Who said all side chains will be exclusively merged mined, i.e. it is possible to combine two PoW simultaneously?

I believe it was PPCoin that combined PoS and PoW?

TPTB_need_war
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June 21, 2015, 03:04:27 AM
 #26970

5 yr after 1MB, the network is much bigger, stronger, and more resilient.  one can always obsess about these theoretical problems but the fact is that Bitcoin hasn't been broken and hasn't been attacked.  there are quite a few network experts who've agreed with Gavin that scaling shouldn't be a problem.  of course, the proof is in the pudding.

If you repeat illogical myopic nonsense STRAWMEN enough times, perhaps the readers will forget the logic.

You consistently construct STRAWMEN arguments which stray far from the logic that must be weighed.

Peter R
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June 21, 2015, 03:06:22 AM
 #26971

5 yr after 1MB, the network is much bigger, stronger, and more resilient.

Is the capacity of the network to handle large blocks 8x bigger, or 20x bigger? Is there a high degree of confidence that it can handle 1000x bigger blocks in 15 years?


I suspect the answer is yes.  Here's what it might look like graphically:



If anyone can see a mistake in the above chart, please let me know.  I'd like to post it to r/bitcoin once I'm confident it's correct.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
TPTB_need_war
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June 21, 2015, 03:09:07 AM
 #26972

Here's what it might look like graphically

Visa level right about when the debasement becomes so miniscule it has essentially stopped funding mining and the effect of block variance on delays due to nominal transaction fees will destroy any remaining decentralization Bitcoin.

Realize the miner cares about nominal not the percentage of the value you are transacting.

Refer to the logic.

TPTB_need_war
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June 21, 2015, 03:12:26 AM
 #26973

Apparently Gavin is violating the Wiki:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes#Require_unanimous_consent

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes#Require_miner_consensus

cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 03:15:35 AM
 #26974

5 yr after 1MB, the network is much bigger, stronger, and more resilient.

Is the capacity of the network to handle large blocks 8x bigger, or 20x bigger? Is there a high degree of confidence that it can handle 1000x bigger blocks in 15 years?


I suspect the answer is yes.  Here's what it might look like graphically:



If anyone can see a mistake in the above chart, please let me know.  I'd like to post it to r/bitcoin once I'm confident it's correct.

wow, another beautiful graph from PeterR.

looks good to me.
cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 03:22:19 AM
 #26975

wow, another beautiful graph from PeterR.

looks good to me.

Gatekeeper just had to post some noise to hide my prior post.

you are the noise.

Skype address please.
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June 21, 2015, 03:27:21 AM
 #26976

and since we're on the topic of large miners with good connections causing increased centralization by disadvantaging small miners, how about the argument that SC's exacerbates mining centralization b/c these exact large miners with better connections are the only ones who can do all the merge mining required to secure SC's?
Peter R
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June 21, 2015, 03:35:16 AM
 #26977


Visa level right about when the debasement becomes so miniscule it has essentially stopped funding mining and the effect of block variance on delays due to nominal transaction fees will destroy any remaining decentralization Bitcoin.

Realize the miner cares about nominal not the percentage of the value you are transacting.
...

Let's talk nominal:

Right now, the block reward is 25 BTC x $250 / BTC = $6250.  In 2032, the inflation rate should be be 0.78 BTC / block.  Each bitcoin would then need to be worth

   $6250 / 0.78 BTC = $8,000 / BTC

to achieve the same security ignoring transaction fees.  $8,000 / BTC is a very modest price if we assume this level of growth.

But transaction fees would no longer be negligible and will help improve security too.  If there's 2,000 TPS in 2032, that's 1.2 million transactions per block.  Ignoring the block reward now, the average fee required to maintain the current level of security is:

   $6250 / 1,200,000 txs = 0.5 cents / tx.

This is a very affordable fee, and still gives the same security level as today even ignoring the block reward.

Any way you slice it, if we assume continued growth, the network security should be greater in 2032 than now.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 03:54:06 AM
 #26978


Visa level right about when the debasement becomes so miniscule it has essentially stopped funding mining and the effect of block variance on delays due to nominal transaction fees will destroy any remaining decentralization Bitcoin.

Realize the miner cares about nominal not the percentage of the value you are transacting.
...

Let's talk nominal:

Right now, the block reward is 25 BTC x $250 / BTC = $6250.  In 2032, the inflation rate should be be 0.78 BTC / block.  Each bitcoin would then need to be worth

   $6250 / 0.78 BTC = $8,000 / BTC

to achieve the same security ignoring transaction fees.  $8,000 / BTC is a very modest price if we assume this level of growth.

But transaction fees would no longer be negligible and will help improve security too.  If there's 2,000 TPS in 2032, that's 1.2 million transactions per block.  Ignoring the block reward now, the average fee required to maintain the current level of security is:

   $6250 / 1,200,000 txs = 0.5 cents / tx.

This is a very affordable fee, and still gives the same security level as today even ignoring the block reward.

Any way you slice it, if we assume continued growth, the network security should be greater in 2032 than now.  


And that's precisely why we need to keep all those TX's on the mainchain.
TPTB_need_war
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June 21, 2015, 03:58:55 AM
 #26979

Let's talk nominal:

I was writing about the nominal amount of each transaction fee, in that smaller transactions will pay a higher percentage to match the same nominal value as a larger valued transaction.


to achieve the same security ignoring transaction fees.  $8,000 / BTC is a very modest price if we assume this level of growth.

In 2032, how do you know $1 won't be worth a $0.01 in current purchasing power?

My point was never about absolute values but relative weight of transaction value versus debasement value. You entirely missed my point, as indicated below...

If there's 2,000 TPS in 2032, that's 1.2 million transactions per block...

Any way you slice it, if we assume continued growth, the network security should be greater in 2032 than now.  

The point of my logic was not about whether we would have network security, rather whether we would have decentralization.

Why do you always construct strawmen and lose the plot?


And that's precisely why we need to keep all those TX's on the mainchain.

So you can kill decentralization.

Peter R
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June 21, 2015, 04:09:18 AM
 #26980

to achieve the same security ignoring transaction fees.  $8,000 / BTC is a very modest price if we assume this level of growth.
In 2032, how do you know $1 won't be worth a $0.01 in current purchasing power?

I think it was implied that I meant 2015 $s.  

My point was never about absolute values but relative weight of transaction value versus debasement value. You entirely missed my point, as indicated below...

If there's 2,000 TPS in 2032, that's 1.2 million transactions per block...Any way you slice it, if we assume continued growth, the network security should be greater in 2032 than now.  

The point of my logic was not about whether we would have network security, rather whether we would have decentralization.

Why do you always construct strawmen and lose the plot?

Your exact words:

Visa level right about when the debasement becomes so miniscule it has essentially stopped funding mining

I showed that the block subsidy would very likely not be "so minuscule it has essentially stopped funding mining."

...and the effect of block variance on delays due to nominal transaction fees will destroy any remaining decentralization Bitcoin.

^ I couldn't parse this statement.  

Do you have a point?

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