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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1920472 times)
cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 04:57:04 PM
 #27021

There is a nonzero cost to adding a transaction to the blockchain, and there is a nonzero benefit to making a transaction - perfect for a market.


that is so simplistic that it's profound.

thank you.
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cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 05:01:03 PM
 #27022

oh Lordy, now i'm having to educate TBI on digital gold:

https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/612652436126363648
Peter R
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June 21, 2015, 05:31:45 PM
 #27023

Here is a link to the Reddit post with the final graphic visualizing Gavin's recent code changes.  



I incorporated all the proposed improvements except adding notes on IBLTs and pruning.  I thought that discussion deserved a separate graphic.  

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June 21, 2015, 05:35:20 PM
 #27024


Wouldn't IBLT drastically reduce the upload bit rate requirement for miners? 

Yes, It can drastically reduce the upload in case the other side is also full node.
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June 21, 2015, 05:43:41 PM
 #27025

this is going to drive Adam, et al bonkers:

BITCOIN BLOCK SIZE CONFLICT ENDS WITH LATEST UPDATE


An issue that has been the source for months of debate and rancor throughout the Bitcoin mining and developer community over Bitcoin's block size appears to have reached a long-awaited resolution. Within the most recent BitcoinXT update, Gavin Andresen has begun the process of revising the block chain individual block size from 1 MB to 8 MB starting next year. This is deemed necessary for the overall growth and usability of Bitcoin, as the current limits of seven transactions per second are becoming insufficient for the growing global community as consumer and business interest increases.

These impending updates were revealed on GitHub, and this is what is in store for the upcoming “hard fork”, taken directly from GitHub, posted by Gavin Andresen:

Implement hard fork to allow bigger blocks. Unit test and code for a bigger block hard fork.

Parameters are:

8MB cap
Doubling every two years (so 16MB in 2018)
For twenty years
Earliest possible chain fork: 11 Jan 2016
After miner supermajority (code in the next patch)
And grace period once miner supermajority achieved (code in next patch)
The 1 MB block size debate has been a constant issue for months, with Andresen and Mike Hearn discussing the need to upgrade the block size to as much as 20 MB. China's major exchanges and mining interests came out against any block size changes initially, deriding the extra operating costs and complexities involved with mostly empty blocks. After further review, the increase was deemed warranted to an 8 MB size, much smaller than the 20 MB requests by the Core Developers. An accord was reached, and the revisions will take effect next year.

We attempted to contact Hearn and Andresen for more information and will provide updated information as it becomes available. It seems some details are still to be sorted out in the next coding batch within the coming days. We’ll keep our readers informed of any further developments.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-block-size-conflict-ends-latest-update/
Odalv
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June 21, 2015, 05:56:28 PM
 #27026

this is going to drive Adam, et al bonkers:

BITCOIN BLOCK SIZE CONFLICT ENDS WITH LATEST UPDATE


An issue that has been the source for months of debate and rancor throughout the Bitcoin mining and developer community over Bitcoin's block size appears to have reached a long-awaited resolution. Within the most recent BitcoinXT update, Gavin Andresen has begun the process of revising the block chain individual block size from 1 MB to 8 MB starting next year. This is deemed necessary for the overall growth and usability of Bitcoin, as the current limits of seven transactions per second are becoming insufficient for the growing global community as consumer and business interest increases.

These impending updates were revealed on GitHub, and this is what is in store for the upcoming “hard fork”, taken directly from GitHub, posted by Gavin Andresen:

Implement hard fork to allow bigger blocks. Unit test and code for a bigger block hard fork.

Parameters are:

8MB cap
Doubling every two years (so 16MB in 2018)
For twenty years
Earliest possible chain fork: 11 Jan 2016
After miner supermajority (code in the next patch)
And grace period once miner supermajority achieved (code in next patch)
The 1 MB block size debate has been a constant issue for months, with Andresen and Mike Hearn discussing the need to upgrade the block size to as much as 20 MB. China's major exchanges and mining interests came out against any block size changes initially, deriding the extra operating costs and complexities involved with mostly empty blocks. After further review, the increase was deemed warranted to an 8 MB size, much smaller than the 20 MB requests by the Core Developers. An accord was reached, and the revisions will take effect next year.

We attempted to contact Hearn and Andresen for more information and will provide updated information as it becomes available. It seems some details are still to be sorted out in the next coding batch within the coming days. We’ll keep our readers informed of any further developments.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-block-size-conflict-ends-latest-update/


It is not yet consensus. We will see in January.
kazuki49
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June 21, 2015, 06:04:33 PM
 #27027

Similarly, because 95% has been mined, I am not so sure that people will use bitcoin over an altcoin as a means of p2p transfer. It's supply in 2024 will be far too small to facilitate hundreds of million of people buying in to actually use it. Because by 2024, either the legacy rail has taken over and bitcoin is far too expensive relative to it's supply OR, it will not have happened and bitcoin will be worth nothing. Perhaps this is too simplistic an argument to make, but 10 years is not actually very long.

It didnt use to concern me, but it does now.

It concerns you because you think outside the myopic delusional bubble that is bitcointalk and /r/bitcoin, and thats exactly the reason Monero or other more suited and permanently disinflationary coin for p2p payment will eventually take over, you cant force people into one (public, transparent, NSA-stamped) blockchain.
smith coins
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June 21, 2015, 06:06:09 PM
 #27028

This is the right time to buy, after this downtrend period we are about to rise and reach again the $300 value.

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June 21, 2015, 06:12:48 PM
 #27029


Yes, you are right. But solex is presenting IBTL like it reduces bandwidth to 1/32

That's probably a misunderstanding. He said: "Obviously the real-time unconfirmed transaction overhead does remain. and is large long-term.".

Solex seems to have been envisioning IBLT's to be akin to how RAID obtains 'magic' results by use of parity bits.  He would be wrong about this...but...

...actually a Merkle tree structure offers the ability to do some pretty significant optimizations and 'magic'.  If, for instance, a branch can be cut off because it contains some taint, all of the twigs and leaves beyond it are irrelevant.  Pruning could be arbitrarily effective at discriminating and reducing bandwidth depending on the taint ratio.  1/32 is hardly inconceivable and it could be much more.

The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block.  My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.


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June 21, 2015, 06:16:49 PM
 #27030


Yes, you are right. But solex is presenting IBTL like it reduces bandwidth to 1/32

That's probably a misunderstanding. He said: "Obviously the real-time unconfirmed transaction overhead does remain. and is large long-term.".

Solex seems to have been envisioning IBLT's to be akin to how RAID obtains 'magic' results by use of parity bits.  He would be wrong about this...but...

...actually a Merkle tree structure offers the ability to do some pretty significant optimizations and 'magic'.  If, for instance, a branch can be cut off because it contains some taint, all of the twigs and leaves beyond it are irrelevant.  Pruning could be arbitrarily effective at discriminating and reducing bandwidth depending on the taint ratio.  1/32 is hardly inconceivable and it could be much more.

The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.



that is the intent.
cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 06:19:01 PM
 #27031

This is the right time to buy, after this downtrend period we are about to rise and reach again the $300 value.

i fully agree.

if Bitcoin were to have failed, it would have done it by now.  instead, what XT is going to offer is hope for Bitcoin's long awaited and promised growth.  as this percolates thru the mkt place, we will reverse the 90% downtrend and start to climb probably accelerating thru next July's block halving.  i'm hoping for the next 10x ramp as we've seen several times in past years.
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June 21, 2015, 06:21:59 PM
 #27032

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.


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June 21, 2015, 06:27:43 PM
 #27033

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.
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June 21, 2015, 06:33:36 PM
 #27034

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.
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June 21, 2015, 06:43:54 PM
 #27035


perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

A closer match to SV40


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June 21, 2015, 06:56:46 PM
 #27036

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

That's OK. Then we just cut back.

I'd rather try than not try at all.
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June 21, 2015, 07:09:07 PM
 #27037

oh Lordy, now i'm having to educate TBI on digital gold:

https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/612652436126363648

Saw that.

Not sure why he would be so flippant about increasing the hard cap.
Odalv
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June 21, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
 #27038

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

That's OK. Then we just cut back.

I'd rather try than not try at all.


Not increasing block size will enable to start transaction's fee discovery and it creates environment for innovations. This innovations will reduce fees and move transaction to SC. BItcoin will stay decentralized and more powerful.
cypherdoc
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June 21, 2015, 07:21:40 PM
 #27039

oh Lordy, now i'm having to educate TBI on digital gold:

https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/612652436126363648

Saw that.

Not sure why he would be so flippant about increasing the hard cap.

Maybe because he's a TBI?
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June 21, 2015, 07:28:08 PM
 #27040

...
The key element if IBLT would be a structured ordering of transactions within a block. My personal feeling is that this is like the difference in handling ability between water in liquid form and water in solid form.  An ice cube is much more flexible to transport, and much easier to match to a mold (e.g., an identifiable ice tray configuration), but it is also more brittle.  An ice cube is also much easier to catch in a strainer than it's liquid counterpart.

that is the intent.

Of course.  It vastly expands the attack surface.



perhaps.  then a different solution will be made.  key thing about Bitcoin is that there are legions of smart, talented ppl working on it now with even more to come.  if we can surgically dissect out the financially conflicted cancer, then core dev can advance in a healthy manner.  Bitcoin has evolved to that of a public good.  we should want that dissection to occur.

Doubling block size every 2 years is cancer.

That's OK. Then we just cut back.

I'd rather try than not try at all.


Not increasing block size will enable to start transaction's fee discovery and it creates environment for innovations. This innovations will reduce fees and move transaction to SC. BItcoin will stay decentralized and more powerful.

Facepalm.

The debate has evolved considerably since last October.
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