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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2028320 times)
tvbcof
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June 26, 2015, 08:30:37 PM
 #27521

It is not true. Miner who do not understand op-code will not include transaction in block b/c he risks that his block will be ignored in case a transaction is invalid. But in case that other miners added this transaction into block  he will ignore  new op-code as it is NOP (no operation) instruction. (this mean, he will not verify if coins can be moved)

Then it is a virus that turns every old version full node into an SPV client over time as the derivative transactions can't be fully verified from the root.

Did I just invent a new insight?

If your node cannot understand something, it should not verify the subset of transactions which fall into this category.  I think (but am not certain) that this would be one of the definitions of a hard-fork vs. a soft-fork.  That is to say, if a node can be fooled in following the rules coded into it into verifying as true a transaction which is false, that would be a hard-fork.

Note that 'verifying true what is false' is NOT the same thing as 'failing to verify'.

If your node is 'turning into an SPV client' than it's probably an indication that it's time to patch your software.  If you are ejected from the network if you do not do so, it's an indication that a hard-fork has happened.


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Odalv
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June 26, 2015, 08:33:41 PM
 #27522

It is not true. Miner who do not understand op-code will not include transaction in block b/c he risks that his block will be ignored in case a transaction is invalid. But in case that other miners added this transaction into block  he will ignore  new op-code as it is NOP (no operation) instruction. (this mean, he will not verify if coins can be moved)

Then it is a virus that turns every old version full node into an SPV client over time as the derivative transactions can't be fully verified from the root.

Did I just invent a new insight?

Evaluating NOP as doing nothing is what current nodes do. :-) NOPs are there just for this reason. => add new functionality in case it is required. :-)
TPTB_need_war
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June 26, 2015, 08:36:09 PM
 #27523

It is not true. Miner who do not understand op-code will not include transaction in block b/c he risks that his block will be ignored in case a transaction is invalid. But in case that other miners added this transaction into block  he will ignore  new op-code as it is NOP (no operation) instruction. (this mean, he will not verify if coins can be moved)

Then it is a virus that turns every old version full node into an SPV client over time as the derivative transactions can't be fully verified from the root.

Did I just invent a new insight?

If your node cannot understand something, it should not verify the subset of transactions which fall into this category.  I think (but am not certain) that this would be one of the definitions of a hard-fork vs. a soft-fork.  That is to say, if a node can be fooled in following the rules coded into it into verifying as true a transaction which is false, that would be a hard-fork.

Note that 'verifying true what is false' is NOT the same thing as 'failing to verify'.

If your node is 'turning into an SPV client' than it's probably an indication that it's time to patch your software.  If you are ejected from the network if you do not do so, it's an indication that a hard-fork has happened.

I wasn't claiming an old version full node would verify what it can't.

If your old version full node can't verify any transaction, then it is equivalent to a SPV node.

Derivative transactions is a virus that eventually spreads to all transactions.

Thus you could put an undocumented opcode out there and eventually force all full nodes to be SPV nodes by spending in derivative transactions to normal opcodes and spreading out your dust into as many places as possible.

kazuki49
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June 26, 2015, 08:46:03 PM
 #27524


Please transport that to me within 10 minutes via my laptop's 3G (often dropping down to 56 kbps) wireless connection.

Yep, the naivete around here is astounding.
tvbcof
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June 26, 2015, 08:49:52 PM
 #27525


I wasn't claiming an old version full node would verify what it can't.

If your old version full node can't verify any transaction, then it is equivalent to a SPV nodes.

Only if you trust and/or mis-read what it is telling you.


Derivative transactions is a virus that eventually spreads to all transactions.

Thus you could put an undocumented opcode out there and eventually force all full nodes to be SPV nodes by spending in derivative transactions to normal opcodes and spreading out your dust into as many places as possible.

Sure.  Just get miners to accept it.  As I say, this tends not to happen without going through the BIP process (onerous though it may be.)  At least until Hearn get's his 'benevolent dictator' upgrade popularized sufficiently which will hopefully be never.

This is one of the reasons why there is a dichotomy between how those who are 'into' Bitcoin enough to be contributors an those who are players at a different level have such a difference of opinion on the XT project I think.  It's probably why Matonis seems to indicate that XT would kill Bitcoin.


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June 26, 2015, 08:55:19 PM
Last edit: June 26, 2015, 09:21:14 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #27526


I wasn't claiming an old version full node would verify what it can't.

If your old version full node can't verify any transaction, then it is equivalent to a SPV nodes.

Only if you trust and/or mis-read what it is telling you.

Please stop trying to weasel words away from the logic that the full node is relegated to being the same as any other SPV node.


Derivative transactions is a virus that eventually spreads to all transactions.

Thus you could put an undocumented opcode out there and eventually force all full nodes to be SPV nodes by spending in derivative transactions to normal opcodes and spreading out your dust into as many places as possible.

Sure.  Just get miners to accept it.

But your argument was that by default miners ignore and accept opcodes they don't parse (aka not a hard fork), thus no need to convince miners to accept your undocumented opcode (aka a soft fork). Please make up your mind which functionality you are arguing miners do by default in the old version. You are moving the goal posts.

Odalv
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June 26, 2015, 08:56:36 PM
 #27527

It is not true. Miner who do not understand op-code will not include transaction in block b/c he risks that his block will be ignored in case a transaction is invalid. But in case that other miners added this transaction into block  he will ignore  new op-code as it is NOP (no operation) instruction. (this mean, he will not verify if coins can be moved)

Then it is a virus that turns every old version full node into an SPV client over time as the derivative transactions can't be fully verified from the root.

Did I just invent a new insight?

If your node cannot understand something, it should not verify the subset of transactions which fall into this category.  I think (but am not certain) that this would be one of the definitions of a hard-fork vs. a soft-fork.  That is to say, if a node can be fooled in following the rules coded into it into verifying as true a transaction which is false, that would be a hard-fork.

Note that 'verifying true what is false' is NOT the same thing as 'failing to verify'.

If your node is 'turning into an SPV client' than it's probably an indication that it's time to patch your software.  If you are ejected from the network if you do not do so, it's an indication that a hard-fork has happened.

I wasn't claiming an old version full node would verify what it can't.

If your old version full node can't verify any transaction, then it is equivalent to a SPV node.

Derivative transactions is a virus that eventually spreads to all transactions.

Thus you could put an undocumented opcode out there and eventually force all full nodes to be SPV nodes by spending in derivative transactions to normal opcodes and spreading out your dust into as many places as possible.

99,9% of transactions are simplest (move coins from adress A to address B and C) ... but single bitcoin transaction can be much more complex
luigi1111
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June 26, 2015, 09:26:53 PM
 #27528


Derivative transactions is a virus that eventually spreads to all transactions.

Thus you could put an undocumented opcode out there and eventually force all full nodes to be SPV nodes by spending in derivative transactions to normal opcodes and spreading out your dust into as many places as possible.

Sure.  Just get miners to accept it.

But your argument was that by default miners ignore and accept opcodes they don't parse (aka not a hard fork), thus no need to convince miners to accept your undocumented opcode (aka a soft fork). Please make up your mind which functionality you are arguing miners do by default in the old version. You are moving the goal posts.

I *think* he was saying that you need to get (a) miner(s) to accept it so that it can get placed into a block, which would be necessary to create a situation like you're discussing.

Might not be what he meant though.

Edit: meaning, I think, that "miners" (same as other full nodes) would accept/ignore codes they don't know IF they are included in a block, but would not accept them for inclusion into their own blocks.
chessplayer99z
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June 26, 2015, 09:29:03 PM
 #27529

Very good info thanks! Smiley
Odalv
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June 26, 2015, 09:36:26 PM
 #27530

Edit: meaning, I think, that "miners" (same as other full nodes) would accept/ignore codes they don't know IF they are included in a block, but would not accept them for inclusion into their own blocks.

+1 .. this is soft fork
Odalv
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June 26, 2015, 09:54:08 PM
 #27531

cypherdoc, I do not believe that you will create "free" storage service with capacity "8,000 MB every 10 minutes" and with "100% guaranty" that no data will ever be lost. .... otherwise 8GB'er SC will fail (one simple mistake, single transactions is lost .. and  all data are invalid ).
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June 26, 2015, 11:11:30 PM
 #27532

Great article. Emphasizes how all the geeks on this thread don't understand fundamentally what bitcoin is about. I don't necessarily agree with his characterization as commodity money nor with the 4 somewhat confusing classifications of money but overall he gets it:

http://wallstreettechnologist.com/2015/05/30/why-you-should-be-a-bitcoin-maximalist/
tvbcof
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June 26, 2015, 11:12:32 PM
 #27533

Edit: meaning, I think, that "miners" (same as other full nodes) would accept/ignore codes they don't know IF they are included in a block, but would not accept them for inclusion into their own blocks.

+1 .. this is soft fork

That was my basic understanding, but I'm glad to get confirmation from ~odalv on this.

Unfortunately it is conceptually up an orbit two past where most general users in the ecosystem are at.  Unfortunate because it has a large bearing on why various arguments and disputes come from.  On one hand I've always argued that everyone who hodls should be aware of this minutia, but I cannot honestly say that I have a what I would classify as proficiency myself and I have the advantage of having a better than average background in systems and codebase management and such.

I do hope (and sense) that this conversation has been valuable to some of the participants.


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June 26, 2015, 11:26:29 PM
 #27534

Great article. Emphasizes how all the geeks on this thread don't understand fundamentally what bitcoin is about. I don't necessarily agree with his characterization as commodity money nor with the 4 somewhat confusing classifications of money but overall he gets it:

http://wallstreettechnologist.com/2015/05/30/why-you-should-be-a-bitcoin-maximalist/

Yet another long screed where some imbecile bloviates about 'money'.  Yawn.  Skimming a few sentances scattered througout the disertation is enough to see that it is a waste of time (or worse.)

Bitcoin is Bitcoin.  Whether one has some innate insecurity which makes them need to believe it is 'money' or is not 'money' or yada yada yada doesn't change Bitcoin in the slightest.  For years I've argued that whatever it is, it is fine to NOT consider it 'money' just on practical legal grounds, but at the end of the day, who gives a fuck?

I didn't even get to the end where (presumably from your (often completely wrong) representation of the story) the guy claims that Bitcoin should be the one ring that rules them all or whatever.  Not worth the bother.  From the few sentences I did read the guy's conclusions are almost certainly useless bullshit no matter what they are.


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June 27, 2015, 12:27:58 AM
Last edit: June 27, 2015, 12:38:42 AM by TPTB_need_war
 #27535

Edit: meaning, I think, that "miners" (same as other full nodes) would accept/ignore codes they don't know IF they are included in a block, but would not accept them for inclusion into their own blocks.

+1 .. this is soft fork

That was my basic understanding, but I'm glad to get confirmation from ~odalv on this.

Nothing has been stated which refutes my logic. If the old version has the functionality that luigi1111, Odalv, and tcbcof have reaffirmed is their assumption, then the dire outcome I explained is the potential result. Perhaps there are other possible mitigations to such an attack.

Somebody needs to bring this to the attention of the Core devs. Appears on the surface of it, they may have a serious lapse in logic (but not having seen their rebuttal, I might be missing something).

And thus please iCebreaker and tvbcof stop asserting or insinuating that Gmaxwell is smarter than me on every aspect of computer science. I already stated upthread that he is smarter than me on many aspects, including the depth of the cryptography math. I have already bested him on several occasions, including being the first to point out in his thread the logic of why CoinJoin can not work. I (with smooth's post leading the way) also recently pointed out that their white paper is unrealistic on the possibility of SPV proof transfers within 2 days, and that they failed to explain the lossy transfer and speculative angle. I also provided the math to prove Gmaxwell wrong in the Longest Chain thread. And now this.

I am not in a competition of ego with Gregory. He appeared to try to frame it that way in the past and I asked him not to in public (and lost my cool to him in private one time). Lately I've had a very brief private positive exchange with him and I hope it remains so. I would never try to assert my qualifications are greater than his. He can have that title, I don't want it. I am interested in results, not reputation (but please don't slander me when you don't know me).

Possibly the reason reputation is not so critically important to me, is that I have no desire whatsoever to go take employment. I am 50 years old (day after) tomorrow and I am really not interested to work under command of anyone else. I will work for the market and as a collaborator with anyone worthy.

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June 27, 2015, 12:41:57 AM
 #27536

...
And thus please iCebreaker and tvbcof stop asserting or insinuating that Gmaxwell is smarter than me on every aspect of computer science.

WTF?  I never said any such thing.  In point of fact I basically took it as more or less self-evident, but I never had any reason to state it.  Until now Wink

I already stated upthread that he is smarter than me on many aspects, including the depth of the cryptography math. I have already bested him on several occasions, including being the first to point out in his thread the logic of why CoinJoin can not work. I (with smooth's post leading the way) also recently pointed out that their white paper is unrealistic on the possibility of SPV proof transfers within 2 days, and that they failed to explain the lossy transfer and speculative angle. I also provided the math to prove Gmaxwell wrong in the Longest Chain thread. And now this.

I am not in a competition of ego with Gregory.

Now why would anyone suspect such a thing Huh

He appeared to try to frame it that way in the past and I asked him not to in public (and lost my cool to him in private one time). Lately I've had a very brief private positive exchange with him and I hope it remains so. I would never try to assert my qualifications are greater than his. He can have that title, I don't want it. I am interested in results, not reputation (but please don't slander me when you don't know me).

Possibly the reason reputation is not so critically important to me, is that I have no desire whatsoever to go take employment. I am 50 years old (day after) tomorrow and I am really not interested to work under command of anyone else. I will work for the market and as a collaborator with anyone worthy.

Happy birthday.


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June 27, 2015, 12:42:07 AM
 #27537

Yet another long screed where some imbecile bloviates ...  the guy's conclusions are almost certainly useless bullshit no matter what they are.

If for no other reason than nearly no one can predict the technological black swan, especially people not close to the technical minutia.

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June 27, 2015, 12:46:55 AM
 #27538

WTF?  I never said any such thing.  In point of fact I basically took it as more or less self-evident, but I never had any reason to state it.  Until now Wink

My comment was more directed at iCebreaker (and Cyperdorc) than you, but you have insinuated that you trust Blockstream more than any others because of their uber geeky talent. I also saw you were somewhat dismissive of my suggestion that I might have something significant (although it appeared you sort of morphed that view today), but I wouldn't say you were overtly dismissive. I just read your mind.  Wink

I am not in a competition of ego with Gregory.

Now why would anyone suspect such a thing Huh

Because others try to frame it that way. And they push it in my face with "Gregory wiped your ass on the floor" type of slander when in fact that is not the truth. Like any science, neither of us has omniscience. He pointed out some flaws in my thoughts, and I did so too to his.

Happy birthday.

Cheers.  Smiley

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June 27, 2015, 12:57:47 AM
Last edit: June 27, 2015, 01:39:43 AM by iCEBREAKER
 #27539

Look how the 1MB down vote gang goes after my simple non threatening request to vote here in the above poll:

http://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3aykzr/btcchina_we_think_gavins_proposal_is_a/csh5nnd

This means a lot of things since it gives them equal opportunity to come here and vote too:

1. They are afraid of the results.
2. They don't like me
3. They are a bunch of thugs.
4. They want to hide the truth


1. Polls on blocksize are so retarded. Like if Bitcoin was a democracy

Look how you constantly try to frame yourself as a Victim.   Roll Eyes

OMG POOR YOU THE 1MB "GANG" OF "THUGS" IS SO MEAN AND TERRIBLE!!!11!!1

5 downvotes and you crank up the victimology machine, imagining yourself as the target of some nefarious conspiracy.

Quick, check under your bed just in case the Learned Elders of Blocksteam might be hiding there!   Grin

Sidechains are up and running.  CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY has been merged.

Gavininsta hopes of 20MB blocks are a thing of the past.  Its only success was shifting the Overton Window such that 8MB doesn't seem as crazy.  Every core dev and his cat are submitting contradictory/incompatible/confusing BIPs.

I told you GavinCoin would get r3kt like Stannis on the Blackwater, and that exactly what has happened.

Try not to be such a poor sport about it, old chap.  The already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.   Wink


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June 27, 2015, 01:43:50 AM
 #27540


 <sniffle, sniffle, poor me Sad >


Look how you constantly try to frame yourself as the victim.   Roll Eyes

OMG POOR YOU THE 1MB "GANG" OF "THUGS" IS SO MEAN AND TERRIBLE!!!11!!1

5 downvotes and you crank up the victimology machine, imagining yourself as the target of some nefarious conspiracy.

Quick, check under your bed just in case a Learned Elder of Blocksteam might be hiding there!   Grin

Sidechains are up and running.  CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY has been merged.

GavinCoin's hopes of 20MB blocks are a thing of the past.  Its only success was shifting the Overton Window such that 8MB doesn't seem as crazy.  Every core dev and his cat are submitting contradictory/incompatible/confusing BIPs.

I told you GavinCoin would be r3kt like Stannis on the Blackwater, and that exactly what has happened.

Try not to be such a poor sport about it, old chap.  The already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.   Wink


Be happy fap.doc.  We've kept Bitcoin from being destroyed by the exponential growth attack from whoever is on the other end of the mit.gov pass-through and thus made you a a bundle of money down the road...if you actually even have any BTC left.

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