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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806370 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 25, 2015, 08:27:47 PM
 #27441

However as long as there remains one honest full node (let's say an MIT independently funded node, or a libertarian party funded node), that single honest full node would be able to easily generate concrete evidence of the corrupt transactions and easily present that evidence to the world for everyone to verify for themselves. Since this honest node monitors the network in real time, it could easily flag corruption in real time.

The masses will ignore such evidence. They won't switch from their existing systems, e.g. Circle, Coinbase, Paypal, 21 Inc, etc..

How many times have I tried to explain the Logic of Collective Action upthread, but if you are determined to ignore reality, I can not force you to comprehend.

Politics is inherently centralizing. Duh! Look out the window and observe society now.

How smug are you now Smartypants.

So from your response it seems you acknowledge that yes my statement that it only takes a single honest full node to identify and communicate any corruption in the system to the world, is in fact correct and you were grossly incorrect.

So you then fall back and say "but no one will care and thus you're wrong". First that is a different argument, second that position itself is absurd for numerous and obvious reasons.

God you really are a fucking child aren't you. Back to ignore.

BTW in the example I laid out Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, etc are not full node operators but light client users, they will want to work with honest systems because their users will expect them to work with honest system.

Real engineers don't piecemeal analysis in order to delude themselves. Now you've just demonstrated for all astute readers that you are disingenuous (and have an agenda which defies the logic of decentralization).

If there is an incentive to collude, then those establishment vulture capital oligarchs (e.g. Peter Thiel, Larry Summers, etc) who've been funding Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, etc will be involved in the collusion with those permanently sited full nodes of the establishment that you proposed. This is the way the corruption of politics works. Duh.

The fact that 2/3 of the voters here are so easily deluded by your political obfuscation of the logic, shows that for sure the people can not react correctly to evidence. They can be fooled and moved on to Sybil attacked pools for example (how many times per day do you think people will play Whack-A-Mole before exhaustion sets in Smartypants).

This is why Bitcoin has already failed, because it has fallen to political control.

Edit: also you assume that the nature of an attack on the network would be "corrupt transactions" which are easy to prove. However, the nature of the attack that is most disconcerning is where the monopoly is censoring transactions. This will be impossible for any minority node to prove with evidence.

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June 25, 2015, 08:42:05 PM
 #27442

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unless you correlate it with transaction fees paid, that is meaningless data because we don't know how much is spam.

Also if the owner of the coinbase for the block is the one inserting the spam, then the data would be meaningless even with transaction fees correlated (because the spam could be paying itself).

Non-engineers pontificate.

engineers, pfft! 

what kinda "engineer" would even pontificate that the miner is inserting spam into his own blocks when the blocks are coming from different pools and he can't possibly be producing so many consecutive blocks on his own? 

dude, you're just a sham.
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June 25, 2015, 08:44:23 PM
 #27443

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unbelievable!  It's almost as if subsidizing spam/noise transactions creates more of them.   Huh

We need 20MB++ blocks ASAP, because God forbid it costs more than a penny to use Bitcoin's seemingly magical, unprecedentedly powerful settlement system (which is based on the most secure and well distributed database in history).

Why should any of the exorbitant expense of running nodes and miners be passed on to consumers?  After all, growth at all costs is more important than closing loops and weaning the network off block rewards.

Bitcoin is like a shark; it must keep moving or die.  As with Uber, it must stay two steps ahead of the regulators.

Oh, wait: http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/17/uber-drivers-deemed-employees-by-california-labor-commission/

Nevermind: http://www.coindesk.com/ny-bitcoin-business-45-days-bitlicense/

 Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

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Adrian-x
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June 25, 2015, 08:44:39 PM
 #27444


This is why Bitcoin has already died, because it has fallen to political control.

it hasn't fallen, the BIP process of political control you support is actually in jeopardy and if / hopefully when it changes to a distributed consensus, Bitcoin will be more secure for it.

I'm not sure what TPTB need war actually means, I presumed it was a warning, but that was obviously my mistake, you seem to be promoting the idea as a positive outcome.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
TPTB_need_war
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June 25, 2015, 08:46:00 PM
 #27445

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unless you correlate it with transaction fees paid, that is meaningless data because we don't know how much is spam.

Also if the owner of the coinbase for the block is the one inserting the spam, then the data would be meaningless even with transaction fees correlated (because the spam could be paying itself).

Non-engineers pontificate.

engineers, pfft!  

what kinda "engineer" would even pontificate that the miner is inserting spam into his own blocks when the blocks are coming from different pools and he can't possibly be producing so many consecutive blocks on his own?  

dude, you're just a sham.

Did you not see the word "also". If even 1 of those could be a miner inserting spam into his own blocks, then my statement was not in error.

I presented multiple orthogonal statements. This seems to confuse your pea brain.

Also in the event the monopoly has GHash.io's 51% of the hashrate (probably greater than 51% by now, hidden behind Sybil attack pools), then yes indeed the monopoly could have consecutive blocks.

cypherdoc
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June 25, 2015, 08:49:44 PM
 #27446

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unless you correlate it with transaction fees paid, that is meaningless data because we don't know how much is spam.

Also if the owner of the coinbase for the block is the one inserting the spam, then the data would be meaningless even with transaction fees correlated (because the spam could be paying itself).

Non-engineers pontificate.

engineers, pfft! 

what kinda "engineer" would even pontificate that the miner is inserting spam into his own blocks when the blocks are coming from different pools and he can't possibly be producing so many consecutive blocks on his own? 

dude, you're just a sham.

Did you not see the word "also". If even 1 of those could be a miner inserting spam into his own blocks, then my statement was not in error.

I presented multiple orthogonal statements. This seems to confuse your pea brain.

Also in the event the monopoly has GHash.io's 51% of the hashrate (probably greater than 51% by now, hidden behind Sybil attack pools), then yes indeed the monopoly could have consecutive blocks.

Go stick your broomstick up your ass again Smartypants. You seem to be quite proficient at fucking yourself.

no, dipshit. 

for you, as a supposed engineer which i doubt, to even consider a possibility that is not possible shows that you aren't worth a damn in terms of Bitcoin technical understanding.
rocks
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June 25, 2015, 08:51:32 PM
 #27447

However as long as there remains one honest full node (let's say an MIT independently funded node, or a libertarian party funded node), that single honest full node would be able to easily generate concrete evidence of the corrupt transactions and easily present that evidence to the world for everyone to verify for themselves. Since this honest node monitors the network in real time, it could easily flag corruption in real time.

The masses will ignore such evidence. They won't switch from their existing systems, e.g. Circle, Coinbase, Paypal, 21 Inc, etc..

How many times have I tried to explain the Logic of Collective Action upthread, but if you are determined to ignore reality, I can not force you to comprehend.

Politics is inherently centralizing. Duh! Look out the window and observe society now.

How smug are you now Smartypants.

So from your response it seems you acknowledge that yes my statement that it only takes a single honest full node to identify and communicate any corruption in the system to the world, is in fact correct and you were grossly incorrect.

So you then fall back and say "but no one will care and thus you're wrong". First that is a different argument, second that position itself is absurd for numerous and obvious reasons.

God you really are a fucking child aren't you. Back to ignore.

BTW in the example I laid out Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, etc are not full node operators but light client users, they will want to work with honest systems because their users will expect them to work with honest system.

Real engineers don't piecemeal analysis in order to delude themselves. Now you've just demonstrated for all astute readers that you are disingenuous (and have an agenda which defies the logic of decentralization).

If there is an incentive to collude, then those establishment vulture capital oligarchs (e.g. Peter Thiel, Larry Summers, etc) who've been funding Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, etc will be involved in the collusion with those permanently sited full nodes of the establishment that you proposed. This is the way the corruption of politics works. Duh.

The fact that 2/3 of the voters here are so easily deluded by your political obfuscation of the logic, shows that for sure the people can not react correctly to evidence. They can be fooled and moved on to Sybil attacked pools for example (how many times per day do you think people will play Whack-A-Mole before exhaustion sets in Smartypants).

This is why Bitcoin has already failed, because it has fallen to political control.

Edit: also you assume that the nature of an attack on the network would be "corrupt transactions" which are easy to prove. However, the nature of the attack that is most disconcerning is where the monopoly is censoring transactions. This will be impossible for any minority node to prove with evidence.

Go stick your broomstick up your ass again Smartypants. You seem to be quite proficient at fucking yourself.

The only thing of substance that you said there is

Quote
However, the nature of the attack that is most disconcerning is where the monopoly is censoring transactions. This will be impossible for any minority node to prove with evidence.

1) Censoring attacks do not work unless you have 100% of the miners. It only takes a single pool/miner not colluding the break the censor and include the transactions.
2) Yes it is easy to verify and communicate censor attacks (if they even are pulled off) by an honest node. That node would have the valid transactions, with fees, that are never added to blocks. It doesn't take long to start to ask why there is a pool of transactions not confirming or are only in blocks that are being orphaned from the MC.

Again, you simply do not understand anything about Bitcoin or the dynamics of how it works. These are 101 concepts you can't seem to grasp. Your only replies are attacks without saying anything of substance (and the little you do say is easy to show as wrong) or constant changes to your position on what matters.
TPTB_need_war
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June 25, 2015, 08:51:45 PM
 #27448

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unless you correlate it with transaction fees paid, that is meaningless data because we don't know how much is spam.

Also if the owner of the coinbase for the block is the one inserting the spam, then the data would be meaningless even with transaction fees correlated (because the spam could be paying itself).

Non-engineers pontificate.

engineers, pfft!  

what kinda "engineer" would even pontificate that the miner is inserting spam into his own blocks when the blocks are coming from different pools and he can't possibly be producing so many consecutive blocks on his own?  

dude, you're just a sham.

Did you not see the word "also". If even 1 of those could be a miner inserting spam into his own blocks, then my statement was not in error.

I presented multiple orthogonal statements. This seems to confuse your pea brain.

Also in the event the monopoly has GHash.io's 51% of the hashrate (probably greater than 51% by now, hidden behind Sybil attack pools), then yes indeed the monopoly could have consecutive blocks.

Go stick your broomstick up your ass again Smartypants. You seem to be quite proficient at fucking yourself.

no, dipshit.  

for you, as a supposed engineer which i doubt, to even consider a possibility that is not possible shows that you aren't worth a damn in terms of Bitcoin technical understanding.

Okay readers can surely see how dumb you are with that response.

Orthogonal is in the dictionary. Engineers naturally think in orthogonal vectors, because it is necessary for doing our job correctly. You go back to your profession with eyes, if you want to stop making a total fool of yourself here in our area of specialization.

cypherdoc
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June 25, 2015, 08:53:40 PM
 #27449

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unless you correlate it with transaction fees paid, that is meaningless data because we don't know how much is spam.

Also if the owner of the coinbase for the block is the one inserting the spam, then the data would be meaningless even with transaction fees correlated (because the spam could be paying itself).

Non-engineers pontificate.

engineers, pfft! 

what kinda "engineer" would even pontificate that the miner is inserting spam into his own blocks when the blocks are coming from different pools and he can't possibly be producing so many consecutive blocks on his own? 

dude, you're just a sham.

Did you not see the word "also". If even 1 of those could be a miner inserting spam into his own blocks, then my statement was not in error.

I presented multiple orthogonal statements. This seems to confuse your pea brain.

Also in the event the monopoly has GHash.io's 51% of the hashrate (probably greater than 51% by now, hidden behind Sybil attack pools), then yes indeed the monopoly could have consecutive blocks.

Go stick your broomstick up your ass again Smartypants. You seem to be quite proficient at fucking yourself.

haha.  digging yourself deeper and deeper with BS.

look at the chart i posted above; 6 out of 8 consecutive blocks is 75%.  so acc to you, it's possible we have a pool collusion attack going on now involving 75% of miners with each block coming from a different pool's address?  lol, you are a dumbass.
Odalv
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June 25, 2015, 08:53:52 PM
 #27450

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unbelievable!  It's almost as if subsidizing spam/noise transactions creates more of them.   Huh

We need 20MB++ blocks ASAP, because God forbid it costs more than a penny to use Bitcoin's seemingly magical, unprecedentedly powerful settlement system (which is based on the most secure and well distributed database in history).

Why should any of the exorbitant expense of running nodes and miners be passed on to consumers?  After all, growth at all costs is more important than closing loops and weaning the network off block rewards.

Bitcoin is like a shark; it must keep moving or die.  As with Uber, it must stay two steps ahead of the regulators.

Oh, wait: http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/17/uber-drivers-deemed-employees-by-california-labor-commission/

Nevermind: http://www.coindesk.com/ny-bitcoin-business-45-days-bitlicense/

 Cheesy

Maybe because cypherdoc made a fortune as early adopter and now is trying to privatize bitcoin. He is one of them who can run 8 GB block-size node.
rocks
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June 25, 2015, 08:54:37 PM
 #27451

we're not even under attack yet blocks continue to fill up:

Unless you correlate it with transaction fees paid, that is meaningless data because we don't know how much is spam.

Also if the owner of the coinbase for the block is the one inserting the spam, then the data would be meaningless even with transaction fees correlated (because the spam could be paying itself).

Non-engineers pontificate.

engineers, pfft! 

what kinda "engineer" would even pontificate that the miner is inserting spam into his own blocks when the blocks are coming from different pools and he can't possibly be producing so many consecutive blocks on his own? 

dude, you're just a sham.

Did you not see the word "also". If even 1 of those could be a miner inserting spam into his own blocks, then my statement was not in error.

I presented multiple orthogonal statements. This seems to confuse your pea brain.

Also in the event the monopoly has GHash.io's 51% of the hashrate (probably greater than 51% by now, hidden behind Sybil attack pools), then yes indeed the monopoly could have consecutive blocks.

Go stick your broomstick up your ass again Smartypants. You seem to be quite proficient at fucking yourself.

no, dipshit. 

for you, as a supposed engineer which i doubt, to even consider a possibility that is not possible shows that you aren't worth a damn in terms of Bitcoin technical understanding.

He really is a fool isn't he.
Adrian-x
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June 25, 2015, 08:55:32 PM
 #27452


This is why Bitcoin has already diedfailed, because it has fallen to political control.

You'd be wise to reread my quoted post. I inserted a very important edit (not the one shown above).

got it, it's this appeal to authority that made me more wise:

Go stick your broomstick up your ### again Smartypants. You seem to be quite proficient at ####### yourself.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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June 25, 2015, 08:57:05 PM
 #27453

hey look, engineer TPTB!  all those pools are the same aggregate pool colluding and inserting spam into their own blocks!

TPTB_need_war
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June 25, 2015, 08:59:40 PM
 #27454

The only thing of substance that you said there is

You refuse to acknowledge the Logic of Collective Action. Thus you refuse to acknowledge reality. How much more disingenuous can it be.

Quote
However, the nature of the attack that is most disconcerning is where the monopoly is censoring transactions. This will be impossible for any minority node to prove with evidence.

1) Censoring attacks do not work unless you have 100% of the miners. It only takes a single pool/miner not colluding the break the censor and include the transactions.

Holly sister of ignoramus, you don't understand how a 51% attack works. Please go back to Bitcoin 101 training wheels school.

2) Yes it is easy to verify and communicate censor attacks (if they even are pulled off) by an honest node. That node would have the valid transactions, with fees, that are never added to blocks. It doesn't take long to start to ask why there is a pool of transactions not confirming or are only in blocks that are being orphaned from the MC.

How do you prove they were sent to the network and not just some scammer trying to take over the network with false evidence? DUH. DUH. DUH! You are a fucking idiot. (you fail to appreciate that is why we needed PoW consensus in the first place)

And (orthogonally) if these are rare and only for targeting dissidents amongst the billions of KYC compliant masses?

And (orthogonally) if these transactions don't have KYC and the masses have agreed that KYC is good (as they have!).

Again, you simply do not understand anything about Bitcoin or the dynamics of how it works. These are 101 concepts you can't seem to grasp.

You are talking to the mirror dude. Cripes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.

TPTB_need_war
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June 25, 2015, 09:10:01 PM
 #27455

hey look, engineer TPTB!  all those pools are the same aggregate pool colluding and inserting spam into their own blocks!

Where is the correlated transaction fee data?

Orthogonally, where is the proof that 51% (weighted by hashrate) of pools are not controlled by the same monopoly?

cypherdoc
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June 25, 2015, 09:13:23 PM
 #27456

hey look, engineer TPTB!  all those pools are the same aggregate pool colluding and inserting spam into their own blocks!

Where is the correlated transaction fee data?

Orthogonally, where is the proof that 51% (weighted by hashrate) of pools are not controlled by the same monopoly?

hey, i'm just mocking your dumbass "orthogonal impossibilities".  if you don't know where to get the data before making outrageous claims, why should i help you?
TPTB_need_war
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June 25, 2015, 09:14:52 PM
 #27457

hey look, engineer TPTB!  all those pools are the same aggregate pool colluding and inserting spam into their own blocks!

Where is the correlated transaction fee data?

Orthogonally, where is the proof that 51% (weighted by hashrate) of pools are not controlled by the same monopoly?

hey, i'm just mocking your dumbass "orthogonal impossibilities".  if you don't know where to get the data before making outrageous claims, why should i help you?

If you present incomplete data, then you are not making any valid claim.

Where am I supposed to find the proof that 51% of the pools (weighted by hashrate) are not secretly controlled by the same monopoly?

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June 25, 2015, 09:17:04 PM
 #27458

for those of you that actually understand this stuff, unlike TPTB, take a look at how some miner appears to be defending himself from a series of maxed out blocks with a 1 tx mined block:

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June 25, 2015, 09:19:34 PM
 #27459

for those of you that actually understand this stuff, unlike TPTB, take a look at how some miner appears to be defending himself from a series of maxed out blocks with a 1 tx mined block:

You ignored the request for the missing data.

Also I don't agree with your presumption of the meaning of any particular structure, for numerous reasons including but not limited to aliasing error.

But even if I did subscribe to your pulled-out-my-ass theory of structure motivation, how do I prove it wasn't you who inserted that 1 tx block?

(careful, I am preparing to prove that you are colluding with a mining oligarchy to fool the readers, if you misstep I will catch you)

You should have left the thread locked yesterday chickenshit.  Kiss

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June 25, 2015, 09:25:26 PM
 #27460

for those of you that actually understand this stuff, unlike TPTB, take a look at how some miner appears to be defending himself from a series of maxed out blocks with a 1 tx mined block:

You ignored the request for the missing data.

Also I don't agree with your presumption of the meaning of any particular structure, for numerous reasons including but not limited to aliasing error.

But even if I did subscribe to your pulled-out-my-ass theory of structure motivation, how do I prove it wasn't you who inserted that 1 tx block?

(careful, I am preparing to prove that you are colluding with a mining oligarchy)

yes, it was me who mined that 1 tx block.  and yes, i stand ready to pump out a series of endless 8MB spam blocks from all the different pool IP addresses while at the same time mounting a massive Sybil attack on yours and Odalv's private wallets.  b/c i want to privatize the network:

BOO!!!

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