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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2028317 times)
Patel
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June 19, 2015, 05:59:18 PM
 #26841

Out of all the threads on this forum, I think this is the most resourceful for discussion on maxblocksize, blockstream, hard fork, and other arguments.

So thanks to contributers for posting comments on these issues.

Off topic, I'd like to point out that Bitcoin is actually at it's most vulnerable state for the next year. With Blockstream's Confidential Transactions and Elements, a hard fork, lots of internal controversy, and a block halving, now is the perfect time for opposition to do their damage to Bitcoin and how CT will anonymize transactions in the sidechains.



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Melbustus
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June 19, 2015, 06:13:35 PM
 #26842

The howls of rage by people who have been trying to pretend that Bitcoin is not a batch system and papering this fact over with insecure shitware, propaganda, and ignorance is hugely amusing.

The solution is simple, and looks like it should be available in a more robust form than I imagined sooner than I anticipate.  That is, use a sidecoin that is designed to support the use-case properly if they need real-time behavior.
What actually happened is that when F2Pool realized they had been mislead about the effects of the change, they promptly reverted it.

Because, unlike the spherical cow models the game theorists are always using, they value the long term value of their investment rather than the short term benefit of gaining a few extra pennies on each block.

Incentives do work after all.


+1.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: https://onchainfx.com
Frontpage of crypto: https://messari.io
Natalia_AnatolioPAMM
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June 19, 2015, 06:39:51 PM
 #26843



Eliminating mankind entirely may be your lunatic goal, but that particular goal is very, very, very difficult to achieve. Entropy is not on your side.


Mankind along with many other species is already nearly entirely eliminated by the society, which does not represent mankind. Society/collectivism is a cancerous, proliferous cartoon of mankind. It is a pandemic disease. My goal is the rebirth of mankind. The society/collectivism is something to be overcome.


Doctor doctor, what is wrong with me?
This supermarket life, is getting long
What is the heart life of a color TV?
What is the shelf life of a teenage queen?
Ooh Western Woman
Ooh Western Girl

News hound sniffs the air
When Jessica Hahn goes down
He latches onto that symbol of detachment
Attracted by the peeling way of feeling
The celebrity of the abused shell, the belle
Ooh Western Woman
Ooh Western Girl

The children on Melrose strut their stuff
Is absolute zero cold enough?
And out in the valley, warm and clean
The little ones sit by the TV screen

No thoughts to think
No tears to cry
All sucked dry
Down to the very last breath

Bartender what is wrong with me?
Why am I so out of breath?
The captain said 'Excuse me ma'am'
'This species has amused itself to death'

Amused itself to death
It has amused itself to death
Amused itself to death

We watched the tragedy unfold
We did as we were told, bought and sold
It was the greatest show on Earth
But then it was over

We oohed and ahhed
We drove our racing cars
We ate our last few jars of caviar
And somewhere out there in the stars
A keen eyed lookout spied a flickering light
Our last hurrah
Our last hurrah

And when they found our shadows
Groups 'round the TV sets
They ran down every lead
They repeated every test
They checked out all the data on their list
And then
The alien anthropologists
Admitted they were still perplexed
But on eliminating every other reason for our sad demise
They logged the only explanation left
This species has amused itself to death


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-P614lmP3Y&list=RDK-P614lmP3Y#t=25

i love the song!!
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June 19, 2015, 06:40:29 PM
 #26844

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114530/bitcoin-wallet-software-providers-express-support-for-block-size-increase

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37y8wm/list_of_bitcoin_services_that_supportoppose/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3947ck/multiple_polls_results_regarding_bitcoin/
tvbcof
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June 19, 2015, 06:56:20 PM
 #26845

The howls of rage by people who have been trying to pretend that Bitcoin is not a batch system and papering this fact over with insecure shitware, propaganda, and ignorance is hugely amusing.

The solution is simple, and looks like it should be available in a more robust form than I imagined sooner than I anticipate.  That is, use a sidecoin that is designed to support the use-case properly if they need real-time behavior.

What actually happened is that when F2Pool realized they had been mislead about the effects of the change, they promptly reverted it.

Because, unlike the spherical cow models the game theorists are always using, they value the long term value of their investment rather than the short term benefit of gaining a few extra pennies on each block.

Incentives do work after all.

Hey, if my competition wants to pound a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer why should I let that bother me?

Looks like about 20-25% of people understand Bitcoin as I do whether they are new arrivals or otherwise.  I really do see some utility in a fracture along this fault line and believe that it could be the best thing which could happen for the eco-system.  Especially if it is not a complete surprise.

Developments to leverage Bitcoin in the capacity where it makes sense are at this point mature enough that they won't be going away at least as a template form.  I'll look for timing of problems to coincide with a period when Bitcoin could otherwise be of real value to people.  Specifically when people most need and ex-mainstream means of wealth preservation.  That would be unfortunate but it is sometimes impractical to win every battle and those who are clued in will still be able to make some use of it.


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June 19, 2015, 06:59:58 PM
 #26846

https://twitter.com/jonmatonis/status/611844197331693568

the best part about being right about whats beyond the curve is watch others come to the same conclusion you did after being ejected from the initial conversations by your suppose peers.
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June 19, 2015, 07:03:32 PM
 #26847

One of the more amazing actions:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3aei7c/heres_what_the_canadian_senate_just_put_in_the/
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June 19, 2015, 07:08:37 PM
 #26848

https://twitter.com/jonmatonis/status/611844197331693568

the best part about being right about whats beyond the curve is watch others come to the same conclusion you did after being ejected from the initial conversations by your suppose peers.

Don't get smug. Scroll down to where Jon favorites several of my counter argument tweets. He'll come around. He just hasn't been following the technical discussions.
tvbcof
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June 19, 2015, 07:23:32 PM
 #26849

https://twitter.com/jonmatonis/status/611844197331693568

the best part about being right about whats beyond the curve is watch others come to the same conclusion you did after being ejected from the initial conversations by your suppose peers.

Don't get smug. Scroll down to where Jon favorites several of my counter argument tweets. He'll come around. He just hasn't been following the technical discussions.

Matonis 'came around' several years ago, and likely induced various other power-players to do the same.  It was one of the things that kept me interested in and hopeful for Bitcoin.  I doubt that the guy will suffer a regression...unless some sort of flaw can be exploited...


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June 19, 2015, 08:23:07 PM
 #26850

Peter Todd again. I don't like this.

Quote
Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the previous transaction.

http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08422.html

I've never understood Peter Todd's rationale for promoting replace-by-fee.  

The way Bitcoin was designed, if a node sees a second transaction that spends an output already spent by a previous transaction, it ignores the second transaction.  The result is that the second (and in most cases, fraudulent) transaction propagates to very few nodes and has little chance of being mined into a block.  If the entire network applies this policy homogeneously, double-spending zero-confirm transactions is very difficult, especially if merchants just wait a few second to monitor the propagation of the TX with a well-connected listening node.

This only works if mining is homogeneous throughout the network, which is very much not how Bitcoin exists today. Otherwise it is up to the policies of a few individual (large) miners how likely a transaction is to get mined, not an emergent property of network propagation.

The motivation behind replace-by-fee is not to just go and break things, as detractors argue. It is to make instant payments safer by removing the incentive to double spend. The reason being that if you can double spend by increasing the fee, the recipient can too. The result is a bidding war where the entire amount gets burned in fees, and you gain nothing, removing the incentive to double spend in the first place.

However, this too only works if mining is diffuse (essentially homogenous) because otherwise you can conspire with a miner to refund part of the fee back to you under the table.

So rbf is largely pointless, and at this point indeed is an instance of the ongoing philosophical debate over whether Bitcoin should be a real time ecommerce payment system or a batch settlement system.


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June 19, 2015, 08:24:15 PM
 #26851

Well what do ya know, Coinkite abandons 1MB.
Erdogan
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June 19, 2015, 08:46:12 PM
 #26852

Comparing a successful fork to a runaway sidechain.

A chain fork, while painful, will succeed only if the fork is better than the original. A bitcoiner need only do nothing to join the fork.

A sidechain will either be less valuable and therefore be very small, or more valuable and therefore run away. A bitcoiner might be left behind, unless he converts to the sidechain in time.

I prefer a chain fork to a runaway sidechain.


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Peter R
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June 19, 2015, 08:48:56 PM
 #26853

Peter Todd again. I don't like this.

Quote
Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the previous transaction.

http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08422.html

I've never understood Peter Todd's rationale for promoting replace-by-fee.  

The way Bitcoin was designed, if a node sees a second transaction that spends an output already spent by a previous transaction, it ignores the second transaction.  The result is that the second (and in most cases, fraudulent) transaction propagates to very few nodes and has little chance of being mined into a block.  If the entire network applies this policy homogeneously, double-spending zero-confirm transactions is very difficult, especially if merchants just wait a few second to monitor the propagation of the TX with a well-connected listening node.

This only works if mining is homogeneous throughout the network, which is very much not how Bitcoin exists today. Otherwise it is up to the policies of a few individual (large) miners how likely a transaction is to get mined, not an emergent property of network propagation.


That's why I prefaced the first sentence with "the way Bitcoin was designed" and the last sentence with "if the entire network applies this policy homogeneously."

And it still works if the policy is not perfectly homogeneous--just not as well since it increases the probability with which an attacker can double spend.    

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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June 19, 2015, 08:53:52 PM
 #26854

Comparing a successful fork to a runaway sidechain.

A chain fork, while painful, will succeed only if the fork is better than the original. A bitcoiner need only do nothing to join the fork.

A sidechain will either be less valuable and therefore be very small, or more valuable and therefore run away. A bitcoiner might be left behind, unless he converts to the sidechain in time.

I prefer a chain fork to a runaway sidechain.


As NL once said, never let your competition into the engine room of your wheel house. Or some shit like that.
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June 19, 2015, 09:10:47 PM
 #26855

Comparing a successful fork to a runaway sidechain.

A chain fork, while painful, will succeed only if the fork is better than the original. A bitcoiner need only do nothing to join the fork.

A sidechain will either be less valuable and therefore be very small, or more valuable and therefore run away. A bitcoiner might be left behind, unless he converts to the sidechain in time.

I prefer a chain fork to a runaway sidechain.


As NL once said, never let your competition into the engine room of your wheel house. Or some shit like that.

Yep, it's like an altcoin with a catapult start at the expense of bitcoin. Let the fookers do their own work, starting an alt.


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ssmc2
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June 19, 2015, 09:11:03 PM
 #26856

Comparing a successful fork to a runaway sidechain.

A chain fork, while painful, will succeed only if the fork is better than the original. A bitcoiner need only do nothing to join the fork.

A sidechain will either be less valuable and therefore be very small, or more valuable and therefore run away. A bitcoiner might be left behind, unless he converts to the sidechain in time.

I prefer a chain fork to a runaway sidechain.


Runaway sidechain never goin back,
Wrong way on a one way track
smooth
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June 19, 2015, 09:23:05 PM
 #26857

Comparing a successful fork to a runaway sidechain.

A chain fork, while painful, will succeed only if the fork is better than the original. A bitcoiner need only do nothing to join the fork.

A sidechain will either be less valuable and therefore be very small, or more valuable and therefore run away. A bitcoiner might be left behind, unless he converts to the sidechain in time.

I prefer a chain fork to a runaway sidechain.

Yes, chain fork = (Peter R's) spin off, though the latter carries a connotation of being done in a somewhat less chaotic fashion. As I said before, spin offs make a lot more sense than side chains as a way to (potentially) upgrade bitcoin. Even Adam's one-way pegs are better than side chains, but spin offs are better than one way pegs.


kazuki49
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June 19, 2015, 09:30:50 PM
 #26858

https://twitter.com/jonmatonis/status/611844197331693568

the best part about being right about whats beyond the curve is watch others come to the same conclusion you did after being ejected from the initial conversations by your suppose peers.

Don't get smug. Scroll down to where Jon favorites several of my counter argument tweets. He'll come around. He just hasn't been following the technical discussions.

Don't get smug. Your tweets, like your posts, have nothing of exceptional. Do you realize how schizophrenic you sound here:



Who told you poor folks that increasing block size will magically increase the userbase? It will do exactly the opposite to Bitcoin, almost no one will be able to run nodes themselves. Derpyt Dorpity.

anyway here's where I end with one of my favorite saying around these places: talking about bitcoin, even in group, do not make you part of bitcoin.
cypherdoc
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June 19, 2015, 10:14:25 PM
 #26859

I'm a Monero Pimp

there are many good reasons to think nodes will go up as userbase increases.  none of which you understand no doubt.
dHe_zHiq
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June 19, 2015, 10:23:50 PM
 #26860

Which is a good investment, investing with bitcoin or gold, what is your reason?

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