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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1921888 times)
cypherdoc
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July 05, 2015, 07:18:14 PM
 #28221

We just need someone to figure out how to constantly feed them invalid blocks. Wink

I'm surprised to hear this from you, Holliday.  Can you explain why you think mining on the blockheader during the short time it takes to validate the block is bad?  It is clearly the profit-maximizing strategy, and I also believe it is ethically sound (unlike replace-by-fee).  

Are they mining on the blockheader during the short time it takes to validate the block, or are they simply skipping validation entirely?

Miners are supposed to secure the network, ehh? If they are just blindly mining on whatever they are fed, they aren't doing a very good job, are they?

i think they're reacting to the larger unconf tx sets being created as a result of the 1MB cap.  they don't want to have to both verify the full blocks coming thru nor construct efficient block sizes from that set.  if the cap was lifted, the unconf tx set should drop in size as faster validating miners can swallow the large unconf sets in one gulp and stuff it into a single block to keep the size of the set down thus discouraging further spamming and the deviant SPV behavior.
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cypherdoc
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July 05, 2015, 07:23:34 PM
 #28222

I see no problem with SPV mining while verifying the previous block. It would also make my above suggestion pointless.

Yes.

Moreover, I don't see why the time spent verifying is very significant. The vast majority of transactions would have been verified by a full node before being included in the block, and then it is just a case of checking the hash. The verification time for a block would then be insignificant relative to its download time.

Great point.  Does anyone know how Bitcoin Core currently works in this regards?  Is every transaction in a block (re-) verified?  Or are the transactions first hashed, and if matched to a TX in mempool not re-verified, thus saving time. 

but, but pwuille told us that a large block attack from a large miner would choke off small miners! 

don't forget that the top 5 largest miners in the world have inferior connectivity, not superior, like he told us.
justusranvier
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July 05, 2015, 07:44:04 PM
 #28223

I've learned loooooooooong ago that miners are bottom feeders who have no concept of the idea of protecting their investment.
This is a self-correcting problem.

Peter R
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July 05, 2015, 07:46:28 PM
 #28224

and do you blame them?

Yes, it's called cutting off the nose to spite the face. I've learned loooooooooong ago that miners are bottom feeders who have no concept of the idea of protecting their investment.

Remember, there are two issues here: SPV mining empty blocks while you're validating the previous block, and what F2Pool appeared to do that caused the problem: never getting around to actually validating the previous block at all!  

I don't see why SPV mining empty blocks for the short amount of time it takes to validate the previous block is harmful to the network's health (I think it is actually helpful).  

On the other hand, I see what F2Pool did as hurtful to the network, and they were punished accordingly with a loss of 100 BTC.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
justusranvier
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July 05, 2015, 07:51:53 PM
 #28225

Somebody is buying a lot of bitcoins today.
molecular
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July 05, 2015, 08:09:36 PM
 #28226

Somebody is buying a lot of bitcoins today.

I think it's at least 2 guys.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
cypherdoc
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July 05, 2015, 10:30:27 PM
 #28227

I have a feeling that fiber (eu) and equities are going to rally hard on a grexit... Makes sense cause we still haven't hit our long term target and makes sense from a market perspective too.

i don't think so:

Peter R
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July 05, 2015, 11:10:43 PM
 #28228

The banking crisis in Greece and the proposed 30% bail-in on balances of 8,000 euros got me thinking…There's actually a euro banknote printing facility run by the Bank of Greece in Athens.  Is there any chance, given the political mess, that the Bank of Greece directly prints banknotes to meet withdrawal demands, thereby ending the bank runs?  I realize this would be a no-no according to rules for eurozone membership but I wouldn't be surprised if such an idea gained popular support.  

According to ZeroHedge, it looks like there might be something to this Euro Banknote Printing Facility in Athens:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-05/greece-contemplates-nuclear-options-may-print-euros-implement-parallel-currency-nati

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cypherdoc
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July 05, 2015, 11:49:07 PM
 #28229

I have a feeling that fiber (eu) and equities are going to rally hard on a grexit... Makes sense cause we still haven't hit our long term target and makes sense from a market perspective too.

i don't think so:



in case you hadn't noticed; we saw all sorts of these types of gap downs back in 2008. 

absolutely no chance to get out.
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July 05, 2015, 11:54:05 PM
 #28230

The banking crisis in Greece and the proposed 30% bail-in on balances of 8,000 euros got me thinking…There's actually a euro banknote printing facility run by the Bank of Greece in Athens.  Is there any chance, given the political mess, that the Bank of Greece directly prints banknotes to meet withdrawal demands, thereby ending the bank runs?  I realize this would be a no-no according to rules for eurozone membership but I wouldn't be surprised if such an idea gained popular support.  

According to ZeroHedge, it looks like there might be something to this Euro Banknote Printing Facility in Athens:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-05/greece-contemplates-nuclear-options-may-print-euros-implement-parallel-currency-nati

Very dangerous.   ECB could respond by claiming all Y series notes not legal tender.  Of course greece could presumably print other serial numbers easily.  And it could invoke the nuclear option where all greek overseas bank accounts are frozen and ultimately confiscated.  

Where is qoute about double txn validation?  Should be unnecessary...
cypherdoc
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July 06, 2015, 12:15:39 AM
 #28231

The banking crisis in Greece and the proposed 30% bail-in on balances of 8,000 euros got me thinking…There's actually a euro banknote printing facility run by the Bank of Greece in Athens.  Is there any chance, given the political mess, that the Bank of Greece directly prints banknotes to meet withdrawal demands, thereby ending the bank runs?  I realize this would be a no-no according to rules for eurozone membership but I wouldn't be surprised if such an idea gained popular support.  

According to ZeroHedge, it looks like there might be something to this Euro Banknote Printing Facility in Athens:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-05/greece-contemplates-nuclear-options-may-print-euros-implement-parallel-currency-nati

Very dangerous.   ECB could respond by claiming all Y series notes not legal tender.  Of course greece could presumably print other serial numbers easily.  And it could invoke the nuclear option where all greek overseas bank accounts are frozen and ultimately confiscated.  

Where is qoute about double txn validation?  Should be unnecessary...

but Euros are fungible, are they not?
thezerg
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July 06, 2015, 02:02:35 AM
 #28232

The banking crisis in Greece and the proposed 30% bail-in on balances of 8,000 euros got me thinking…There's actually a euro banknote printing facility run by the Bank of Greece in Athens.  Is there any chance, given the political mess, that the Bank of Greece directly prints banknotes to meet withdrawal demands, thereby ending the bank runs?  I realize this would be a no-no according to rules for eurozone membership but I wouldn't be surprised if such an idea gained popular support.  

According to ZeroHedge, it looks like there might be something to this Euro Banknote Printing Facility in Athens:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-05/greece-contemplates-nuclear-options-may-print-euros-implement-parallel-currency-nati

Very dangerous.   ECB could respond by claiming all Y series notes not legal tender.  Of course greece could presumably print other serial numbers easily.  And it could invoke the nuclear option where all greek overseas bank accounts are frozen and ultimately confiscated.  

Where is qoute about double txn validation?  Should be unnecessary...

but Euros are fungible, are they not?

They aren't exactly the same so there's a tiny possibility to break fungibility.  Any serial # beginning with a Y was printed by the Greek central bank... other countries could give their citizens 1 week (say) to exchange any Y notes that made it across the border for equivalent value.  You'd show up at any bank (say) with photo ID and the bills.

Of course the press in Greece could probably be modified to change serial numbers pretty easily...

laurentmt
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July 06, 2015, 02:39:22 AM
 #28233

miners will pare down block sizes for maximum verification times and propagation times.
I agree that it could be a positive outcome but I "prefer" my option for 2 reasons:
- The theoretical reason: there's no solution faster than no validation Wink
- The practical reason: from the recent fork, we can see that some (many ?) mining pools prefer no validation than paring down block sizes (e.g. F2Pool mines small or big blocks).
cypherdoc
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July 06, 2015, 03:03:36 AM
 #28234

miners will pare down block sizes for maximum verification times and propagation times.
I agree that it could be a positive outcome but I "prefer" my option for 2 reasons:
- The theoretical reason: there's no solution faster than no validation Wink
- The practical reason: from the recent fork, we can see that some (many ?) mining pools prefer no validation than paring down block sizes (e.g. F2Pool mines small or big blocks).

what's interesting is that we've never seen it done to the degree it is now.  we had the Mystery Miner a few years ago but he stopped it pretty quick.  also, despite many upgrades added to the protocol previously, we've never had a fork as a result of SPV mining before either.  what's different this time is the consistently full blocks and the fact that Wang Chun told us they create SPV blocks in response to large blocks as a defense.  it seems they consider full blocks large blocks so the excessive SPV mining created last nights fork in light of BIP66 and the upgrade to 0.10.x.  so in that sense, the 1MB cap is the direct cause of what is happening. 
TPTB_need_war
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July 06, 2015, 04:10:25 AM
 #28235

I think it is correct to invest small amounts in many promising, +EV projects, Bitcoin and Monero (and Newcoin) included.

What are +EV projects? What is Newcoin?

Oh please don't ask and remember I am a naive n00b who doesn't know how to program "Hello world".

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July 06, 2015, 04:13:55 AM
 #28236

Somebody is buying a lot of bitcoins today.

I think it's at least 2 guys.

Or maybe death and taxes.

gmaxwell
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July 06, 2015, 04:40:08 AM
 #28237

ok, we've all been lead to believe up to now that validation of tx's had to occur twice by full nodes.  first, upon receipt.  second, upon receipt of the block.  this was crucial to the FUD scare tactic of decrementing
[...]
what am i missing?
Where I expicitly pointed out to you in many places, in excruciating detail, that this was not at all the case??  https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39tgno/letting_miners_vote_on_the_maximum_block_size_is/cs6rek5?context=3   You seemed so happy to argue with it before, has your memory vanished now that you don't think it would be convient for you?

what's interesting is that we've never seen it done to the degree it is now.  we had the Mystery Miner a few years ago but he stopped it pretty quick.  also, despite many upgrades added to the protocol previously, we've never had a fork as a result of SPV mining before either.  what's different this time is the consistently full blocks and the fact that Wang Chun told us they create SPV blocks in response to large blocks as a defense.  it seems they consider full blocks large blocks so the excessive SPV mining created last nights fork in light of BIP66 and the upgrade to 0.10.x.  so in that sense, the 1MB cap is the direct cause of what is happening.  

The incohearence in some of these posts is so foaming so thick that it's oozing out and making the floor slick; careful-- you might slip and mess up your future as "the LeBron James of the Bitcoin world" (as your attorney decribed you (18:30), under oath, to a federal judge as part of litigation related to your possession of 3000 BTC taken primarly from members of this forum.).

As miners have created larger blocks F2Pool expirenced high orphaning (>4% according to them); they responded by adding software to mine without transfering or verifying blocks to avoid delays related to transfering and processing block data. Contrary to your claim-- the blocksize limit stems the bleeding here. Their issue is that large blocks take more time to transfer/handle and that they're falling behind as a result. Making blocks _bigger_ would not help this problem, it would do the _opposite_. If a miner wanted to avoid any processing of transaction backlog they'd simply set their minimum fee high and they'd never even mempool the large backlog.

Reasonable minds can differ on the relative importance of difference considerations, but when you're falling all over yourself to describe evidence against your position as support of it-- redefining F2pools crystal clear and plain descption of "large blocks" as their source of problems with the technically inexplicable "full" that you think supports your position, it really burns up whatever credibility you had left. That you can get away with it in this thread without a loud wall of "WTF" just shows what a strange echochamber it has become.

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July 06, 2015, 04:44:27 AM
 #28238


Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
Peter R
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July 06, 2015, 04:49:23 AM
 #28239

what's interesting is that we've never seen it done to the degree it is now.  we had the Mystery Miner a few years ago but he stopped it pretty quick.  also, despite many upgrades added to the protocol previously, we've never had a fork as a result of SPV mining before either.  what's different this time is the consistently full blocks and the fact that Wang Chun told us they create SPV blocks in response to large blocks as a defense.  it seems they consider full blocks large blocks so the excessive SPV mining created last nights fork in light of BIP66 and the upgrade to 0.10.x.  so in that sense, the 1MB cap is the direct cause of what is happening. 

I'm trying to understand your thinking on this matter.  It makes perfect sense to me that we'd see an increase in empty blocks as the average block size rises.  It seems you think the frequency of empty blocks would also actually decrease if we raised the limit (assuming the rate of transactions stayed the same).  Is this an accurate assessment of what you're saying?  Can you explain again why you think that? 

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July 06, 2015, 05:58:24 AM
 #28240

Bitcoin sits at a strange intersection of computer science, mathematics, economics and sociology, and we can all probably learn a bit from each other.  Communication is hard, especially across disciplines.  



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