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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1907422 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 22, 2015, 02:07:57 PM
 #27101

On a different topic...I don't recall if you said you had MS or ALS.  In either case, I do recommend the following information if you've not run across it already.  Garth Nicolson:  weaponized mycoplasmas - snowshoe films.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT25HhAVhhU

This Nicolson guy gives every indication of being for real and knowing his shit.  I seeked around for some other material to verify this and did so successfully.

I personally am a gulf war I vet and I can tell you we got a ton of shots.  I never felt that they did me any harm and for a long time I wrote off the complaints as being from whiners.  Now not so much.

Until I saw the guys presentation I was not even aware of the organisms known as mycoplasmas and I pride myself on being aware of such things.  Just from a science point of view the presentation is quite interesting.  A decent way to kill an hour.

I stopped at 18:35 where he mentions the 20 - 30 vaccines that troops receive over a 2 - 3 day period. I personally know of people that served in Iraq and who are loaded with autoimmune disorders. And my best friend and running partner from high school, Blaine Holman, died of brain cancer in 2009 at the ripe age of 44. He reached Lt. Colonel in the USAF. My father was the well connected attorney who got him a Congressman's endorsement to the USAF Academy.

In my case, I think I acquired my problem derivatively via sexual transmission, but also I pretty much destroyed my gut bacteria by dosing frequently with antibiotics such as Metronidazole and being on the computer too much is probably another factor.

What I suggest to you now as an immediate precaution, is make some fresh salsa lightly seasoned with sea salt (no iodine) and instead of putting in the frig, put it in a glass jar submerged in its own juice (lime or lemon added) for 2 days to populate it with the wide array of good bacteria that can not be obtained via probiotic supplements.

My research reveals that the good bacteria are the critical factor in maintaining good health against the threat of chronic illness.

I am 2 weeks into the this new fermented salsa routine and it appears to have radically boosted my energy level. The past 3 days I slept very soundly and only needed a modicum of sleep and my head was mostly clear of the usual brain fog and fatigue.

I urge you to do this immediately to nip any chronic disease in the bud so to speak, before it gains a foothold as it has in my case.

Btw, I am sincerely trying to develop solutions for cryptocurrency and I should probably go quiet. I think the proof is in the pudding and if I want to make an impact (along with the work that others are doing such as Blockstream of course) then I need to shut up and be a programmer and not a forum iconoclast/educator/antagonist.

I hope we have sufficient core of people who are willing to evaluate cryptocurrency logically over the coming months and year, and so we can hopefully get the best outcomes.

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TPTB_need_war
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June 22, 2015, 02:10:54 PM
 #27102

LOL. And where were those morons sponsored from? Petrochina, Exxon, Gazprom et al.?

No. If anything the large corporations are supporting the establishment which is fabricating the false data and funding junk "science". You've fallen for the "Good Car Salesman, Bad Car Salesman" trick.

There is absolutely nothing factual I can say or write which will change the minds of people who are stuck in their pet delusions. That is why the best course of action is implementation and not talk.

Zarathustra
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June 22, 2015, 02:24:56 PM
 #27103

LOL. And where were those morons sponsored from? Petrochina, Exxon, Gazprom et al.?

No. If anything the large corporations are supporting the establishment which is fabricating the false data. You've fallen for the "Good Car Salesman, Bad Car Salesman" trick.

There is absolutely nothing factual I can say or write which will change the minds of people who are stuck in their pet delusions. That is why the best course of action is implementation and not talk.

Then why are you talking all the time? No work?

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
justusranvier
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June 22, 2015, 02:52:07 PM
 #27104

Somebody made a video describing the effect of a block size limit back in 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVq5oh3-JXc
bassclef
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June 22, 2015, 02:59:10 PM
 #27105

Quote from: TPTB_need_war
Because I really must discipline myself to focus where I can make the most impact, which is coding and not talking.

Yes, please. Your ego has inflated well beyond the walls of this humble thread. Time to start your own.

Here's a working title: Anonymint's pedantic pontifications.
cypherdoc
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June 22, 2015, 03:39:14 PM
 #27106

interesting.  stress test confirm times falling off already:

https://bitcoinfees.github.io/#1m
necrita
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June 22, 2015, 04:18:22 PM
 #27107

Peter Todd's bearish posturing.
Quote
, similar to how it might be years, if ever, before you'll be able to buy 1BTC for $1 again.
https://gist.github.com/petertodd/8e87c782bdf342ef18fb

I wish every core dev had a substantial BTC position.
cypherdoc
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June 22, 2015, 04:20:49 PM
 #27108

ouch:

cypherdoc
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June 22, 2015, 04:50:01 PM
 #27109

interesting.  stress test confirm times falling off already:

https://bitcoinfees.github.io/#1m

fascinating.  what a dud.
cypherdoc
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June 22, 2015, 04:50:53 PM
 #27110

interesting.  stress test confirm times falling off already:

https://bitcoinfees.github.io/#1m

fascinating.  what a dud.

lotsa full blks tho:

cypherdoc
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June 22, 2015, 04:54:23 PM
 #27111

yes, there is no NWO or mass conspiracy.  banksters can't trust each other:

http://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/innovation/safello-and-barclays-partner-on-poc-bitcoin-payments-for-donations/
cypherdoc
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June 22, 2015, 05:18:50 PM
 #27112

that's interesting.  anyone have an idea why the blocks are coming so quickly after the dud stress test?:

macsga
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Strange, yet attractive.


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June 22, 2015, 05:20:09 PM
 #27113

that's interesting.  anyone have an idea why the blocks are coming so quickly after the dud stress test?:



Routed altogether after the bottleneck maybe?

cypherdoc
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June 22, 2015, 05:32:18 PM
 #27114

that's interesting.  anyone have an idea why the blocks are coming so quickly after the dud stress test?:



Routed altogether after the bottleneck maybe?

i think related to this is the zero tx blocks that came within 1 min after large blks during the first stress test.  i never got an explanation for why that was either altho to me it is somewhat similar to this.
Adrian-x
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June 22, 2015, 06:00:59 PM
 #27115

Smooth, you've made a good point about spam however how do we weigh up the trade offs between limiting money velocity and spam?

I think you may have slightly misunderstood my point. It isn't that spam itself needs to be limited, it is that the system is vulnerable to a sort of denial of service from having too much data (whether that happens to be spam or "real" data, although obviously spam is less desirable) stuffed into it. Satoshi made a judgement at one time that 1 MB was an appropriate limit based on that vulnerability, considering the state of the technology, storage, propagation, etc.. What is the evidence for that vulnerability being sufficiently smaller now or in the near future that a 8x or 20x or 1000x is appropriate instead?

I'm sorry but I just see a lot of wishful thinking going on. Of course, we all want it to scale, but instead of actually improving how it scales, the proposal today is to simply push back the safety limit and change not much else. (A bit like ripping out the airbags and safety belts from a car to cut weight and make it go faster.)


I like the car analogies they've worked well for me. So "spam " just being a term for denial of service or an overload of inappropriately priced transaction data, leaves me thinking it isn't quite wishful thinking making room for it.

Reflecting on the  issue has lead real smart people to find solution that I think are nonsense (picking on Sidechains here) in my experience sometimes jumping in the deep end and being overwhelmed leaving one focused on solving the issue as they happen necessity is the mother of invention and I think allowing it is a great way to do RnD, something I feel is partly in keeping with the spirit of Bitcoin.



I mean heck, if the "spam" is paying full TX fees, how can you fault that? How do you even tell it's spam? Either way the miners will be made healthy.

"full TX fees" is a meaningless concept given that there is no set fee, it can be arbitrarily low. Just paying enough to motivate one (who happens to be the most accommodating) miner doesn't cover the entire cost to everyone on the network. Vitalik wrote about this once. Let me find it...okay here you go:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/02/01/on-transaction-fees-and-the-fallacy-of-market-based-solutions/

Adrian-x: I'll agree there is some merit to your idea of jump into the deep end and then figure out how to swim. Dangerous as fuck, but definitely a strong motivation to Get It Done.


I will agree that market based fees are a fallacy while block subsidies are so high, but we're talking Bitcoin not just the situation today.  Vitalik isn't the best free market economics annalist I've ever read.  Bitcoin fees are set up to be a market system and its not a fallacy. Miners today can ignore the market because there reward is subsidized by 25BTC, but once this diminishes significantly the fees become all important. I've also pondered long and hard as to why fees are a monetary unit and not a percent, and I've come to the same conclusion as satoshi that it needs to be a free market fee ranging from 0 to the total value of the economy. 

Miners that ignore the macro economic data will not optimize and will either go bankrupt here are just the obvious ways fees will be optimized:  mining no free transactions (blocking free transactions = less velocity and lover value fees), or mining too many free transactions (subsidizing the Bitcoin velocity = less income and marginal benefit in value of fees) or mining block with insufficient transactions (over priced transaction fees = blocks too small) or mining blocks with too many transactions (under priced on average = blocks too big and orphaned) the market will find an equilibrium and it will happen at a pace that miners can plan and test, basically miners have a constant view of the situation as the urgency for planing is kept in sight by the forced block halving every 4 years.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
justusranvier
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June 22, 2015, 06:18:05 PM
 #27116

I will agree that market based fees are a fallacy while block subsidies are so high, but we're talking Bitcoin not just the situation today.  Vitalik isn't the best free market economics annalist I've ever read.  Bitcoin fees are set up to be a market system and its not a fallacy. Miners today can ignore the market because there reward is subsidized by 25BTC, but once this diminishes significantly the fees become all important. I've also pondered long and hard as to why fees are a monetary unit and not a percent, and I've come to the same conclusion as satoshi that it needs to be a free market fee ranging from 0 to the total value of the economy. 

Miners that ignore the macro economic data will not optimize and will either go bankrupt here are just the obvious ways fees will be optimized:  mining no free transactions (blocking free transactions = less velocity and lover value fees), or mining too many free transactions (subsidizing the Bitcoin velocity = less income and marginal benefit in value of fees) or mining block with insufficient transactions (over priced transaction fees = blocks too small) or mining blocks with too many transactions (under priced on average = blocks too big and orphaned) the market will find an equilibrium and it will happen at a pace that miners can plan and test, basically miners have a constant view of the situation as the urgency for planing is kept in sight by the forced block halving every 4 years.
The block subsidy really does distort mining, just like every other subsidy does in its respective market. The economics of Bitcoin mining are going to make a lot more sense once the block reward shrinks to negligable levels, or once the transaction volume grows large enough to render the reward negligable and thus the distortion insignifigant.

The first criteria is something over which we have no control - we just have to wait.

The second is something we can do something about.
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June 22, 2015, 06:21:54 PM
 #27117

gavin has just posted a bip on the btc dev mailing list

  BIP: ??
  Title: Increase Maximum Block Size
  Author: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
  Status: Draft
  Type: Standards Track
  Created: 2015-06-22

https://github.com/gavinandresen/bips/blob/blocksize/bip-8MB.mediawiki

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
Peter R
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June 22, 2015, 06:30:15 PM
 #27118

gavin has just posted a bip on the btc dev mailing list

  BIP: ??
  Title: Increase Maximum Block Size
  Author: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
  Status: Draft
  Type: Standards Track
  Created: 2015-06-22

https://github.com/gavinandresen/bips/blob/blocksize/bip-8MB.mediawiki


Nice! 

Cypherdoc: did you capture an image of the last poll prior to changing it?  It seems that approval for the increase is higher than ever now.


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June 22, 2015, 06:30:54 PM
 #27119

Quote from: TPTB_need_war
Because I really must discipline myself to focus where I can make the most impact, which is coding and not talking.

Yes, please. Your ego has inflated well beyond the walls of this humble thread. Time to start your own.

Here's a working title: Anonymint's pedantic pontifications.

tbh: I would probably subscribe. It'd be nice to read his ramblings (which contain many intersting things) concentrated in one thread, not copy-pasted all over the place.

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June 22, 2015, 06:32:16 PM
 #27120


Satoshi made a judgement at one time that 1 MB was an appropriate limit based on that vulnerability, considering the state of the technology, storage, propagation, etc.. What is the evidence for that vulnerability being sufficiently smaller now or in the near future that a 8x or 20x or 1000x is appropriate instead?


The evidence is the 3.5 billion market cap as compared to 0 back then (or the most optimistic estimate maybe 5M).  The network can support a LOT more "spam" today and still be considered valuable and useful by its users.

And also experience has shown us that there is not much spam.  If there was, blocks would be 100% full all the time.  When we switch to 8, 20 MB or whatever blocks, its going to be much ado about nothing.  If the network was going to use that bandwidth right away, it would be using the full 1MB now.  

And unlike the case of email, blockchain spam is not even read by human beings so the inconvenience to the network per message is very small (esp. when pruning, etc starts).  You are trading the promise of a worldwide currency against the fear that some people might issue some frivolous txns!  Bitcoin is unlikely to stay at its current adoption level.  It is in a grow or die situation.

Someday there WILL be a fee market.  When there are 100x more users and 1000x more txns.
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