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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808045 times)
Odalv
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June 26, 2015, 09:54:08 PM
 #27561

cypherdoc, I do not believe that you will create "free" storage service with capacity "8,000 MB every 10 minutes" and with "100% guaranty" that no data will ever be lost. .... otherwise 8GB'er SC will fail (one simple mistake, single transactions is lost .. and  all data are invalid ).
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June 26, 2015, 11:11:30 PM
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Great article. Emphasizes how all the geeks on this thread don't understand fundamentally what bitcoin is about. I don't necessarily agree with his characterization as commodity money nor with the 4 somewhat confusing classifications of money but overall he gets it:

http://wallstreettechnologist.com/2015/05/30/why-you-should-be-a-bitcoin-maximalist/
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June 26, 2015, 11:12:32 PM
 #27563

Edit: meaning, I think, that "miners" (same as other full nodes) would accept/ignore codes they don't know IF they are included in a block, but would not accept them for inclusion into their own blocks.

+1 .. this is soft fork

That was my basic understanding, but I'm glad to get confirmation from ~odalv on this.

Unfortunately it is conceptually up an orbit two past where most general users in the ecosystem are at.  Unfortunate because it has a large bearing on why various arguments and disputes come from.  On one hand I've always argued that everyone who hodls should be aware of this minutia, but I cannot honestly say that I have a what I would classify as proficiency myself and I have the advantage of having a better than average background in systems and codebase management and such.

I do hope (and sense) that this conversation has been valuable to some of the participants.


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June 26, 2015, 11:26:29 PM
 #27564

Great article. Emphasizes how all the geeks on this thread don't understand fundamentally what bitcoin is about. I don't necessarily agree with his characterization as commodity money nor with the 4 somewhat confusing classifications of money but overall he gets it:

http://wallstreettechnologist.com/2015/05/30/why-you-should-be-a-bitcoin-maximalist/

Yet another long screed where some imbecile bloviates about 'money'.  Yawn.  Skimming a few sentances scattered througout the disertation is enough to see that it is a waste of time (or worse.)

Bitcoin is Bitcoin.  Whether one has some innate insecurity which makes them need to believe it is 'money' or is not 'money' or yada yada yada doesn't change Bitcoin in the slightest.  For years I've argued that whatever it is, it is fine to NOT consider it 'money' just on practical legal grounds, but at the end of the day, who gives a fuck?

I didn't even get to the end where (presumably from your (often completely wrong) representation of the story) the guy claims that Bitcoin should be the one ring that rules them all or whatever.  Not worth the bother.  From the few sentences I did read the guy's conclusions are almost certainly useless bullshit no matter what they are.


TPTB_need_war
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June 27, 2015, 12:27:58 AM
 #27565

Edit: meaning, I think, that "miners" (same as other full nodes) would accept/ignore codes they don't know IF they are included in a block, but would not accept them for inclusion into their own blocks.

+1 .. this is soft fork

That was my basic understanding, but I'm glad to get confirmation from ~odalv on this.

Nothing has been stated which refutes my logic. If the old version has the functionality that luigi1111, Odalv, and tcbcof have reaffirmed is their assumption, then the dire outcome I explained is the potential result. Perhaps there are other possible mitigations to such an attack.

Somebody needs to bring this to the attention of the Core devs. Appears on the surface of it, they may have a serious lapse in logic (but not having seen their rebuttal, I might be missing something).

And thus please iCebreaker and tvbcof stop asserting or insinuating that Gmaxwell is smarter than me on every aspect of computer science. I already stated upthread that he is smarter than me on many aspects, including the depth of the cryptography math. I have already bested him on several occasions, including being the first to point out in his thread the logic of why CoinJoin can not work. I (with smooth's post leading the way) also recently pointed out that their white paper is unrealistic on the possibility of SPV proof transfers within 2 days, and that they failed to explain the lossy transfer and speculative angle. I also provided the math to prove Gmaxwell wrong in the Longest Chain thread. And now this.

I am not in a competition of ego with Gregory. He appeared to try to frame it that way in the past and I asked him not to in public (and lost my cool to him in private one time). Lately I've had a very brief private positive exchange with him and I hope it remains so. I would never try to assert my qualifications are greater than his. He can have that title, I don't want it. I am interested in results, not reputation (but please don't slander me when you don't know me).

Possibly the reason reputation is not so critically important to me, is that I have no desire whatsoever to go take employment. I am 50 years old (day after) tomorrow and I am really not interested to work under command of anyone else. I will work for the market and as a collaborator with anyone worthy.

tvbcof
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June 27, 2015, 12:41:57 AM
 #27566

...
And thus please iCebreaker and tvbcof stop asserting or insinuating that Gmaxwell is smarter than me on every aspect of computer science.

WTF?  I never said any such thing.  In point of fact I basically took it as more or less self-evident, but I never had any reason to state it.  Until now Wink

I already stated upthread that he is smarter than me on many aspects, including the depth of the cryptography math. I have already bested him on several occasions, including being the first to point out in his thread the logic of why CoinJoin can not work. I (with smooth's post leading the way) also recently pointed out that their white paper is unrealistic on the possibility of SPV proof transfers within 2 days, and that they failed to explain the lossy transfer and speculative angle. I also provided the math to prove Gmaxwell wrong in the Longest Chain thread. And now this.

I am not in a competition of ego with Gregory.

Now why would anyone suspect such a thing Huh

He appeared to try to frame it that way in the past and I asked him not to in public (and lost my cool to him in private one time). Lately I've had a very brief private positive exchange with him and I hope it remains so. I would never try to assert my qualifications are greater than his. He can have that title, I don't want it. I am interested in results, not reputation (but please don't slander me when you don't know me).

Possibly the reason reputation is not so critically important to me, is that I have no desire whatsoever to go take employment. I am 50 years old (day after) tomorrow and I am really not interested to work under command of anyone else. I will work for the market and as a collaborator with anyone worthy.

Happy birthday.


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June 27, 2015, 12:42:07 AM
 #27567

Yet another long screed where some imbecile bloviates ...  the guy's conclusions are almost certainly useless bullshit no matter what they are.

If for no other reason than nearly no one can predict the technological black swan, especially people not close to the technical minutia.

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June 27, 2015, 12:46:55 AM
 #27568

WTF?  I never said any such thing.  In point of fact I basically took it as more or less self-evident, but I never had any reason to state it.  Until now Wink

My comment was more directed at iCebreaker (and Cyperdorc) than you, but you have insinuated that you trust Blockstream more than any others because of their uber geeky talent. I also saw you were somewhat dismissive of my suggestion that I might have something significant (although it appeared you sort of morphed that view today), but I wouldn't say you were overtly dismissive. I just read your mind.  Wink

I am not in a competition of ego with Gregory.

Now why would anyone suspect such a thing Huh

Because others try to frame it that way. And they push it in my face with "Gregory wiped your ass on the floor" type of slander when in fact that is not the truth. Like any science, neither of us has omniscience. He pointed out some flaws in my thoughts, and I did so too to his.

Happy birthday.

Cheers.  Smiley

iCEBREAKER
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June 27, 2015, 12:57:47 AM
 #27569

Look how the 1MB down vote gang goes after my simple non threatening request to vote here in the above poll:

http://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3aykzr/btcchina_we_think_gavins_proposal_is_a/csh5nnd

This means a lot of things since it gives them equal opportunity to come here and vote too:

1. They are afraid of the results.
2. They don't like me
3. They are a bunch of thugs.
4. They want to hide the truth


1. Polls on blocksize are so retarded. Like if Bitcoin was a democracy

Look how you constantly try to frame yourself as a Victim.   Roll Eyes

OMG POOR YOU THE 1MB "GANG" OF "THUGS" IS SO MEAN AND TERRIBLE!!!11!!1

5 downvotes and you crank up the victimology machine, imagining yourself as the target of some nefarious conspiracy.

Quick, check under your bed just in case the Learned Elders of Blocksteam might be hiding there!   Grin

Sidechains are up and running.  CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY has been merged.

Gavininsta hopes of 20MB blocks are a thing of the past.  Its only success was shifting the Overton Window such that 8MB doesn't seem as crazy.  Every core dev and his cat are submitting contradictory/incompatible/confusing BIPs.

I told you GavinCoin would get r3kt like Stannis on the Blackwater, and that exactly what has happened.

Try not to be such a poor sport about it, old chap.  The already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.   Wink

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
tvbcof
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June 27, 2015, 01:43:50 AM
 #27570


 <sniffle, sniffle, poor me Sad >


Look how you constantly try to frame yourself as the victim.   Roll Eyes

OMG POOR YOU THE 1MB "GANG" OF "THUGS" IS SO MEAN AND TERRIBLE!!!11!!1

5 downvotes and you crank up the victimology machine, imagining yourself as the target of some nefarious conspiracy.

Quick, check under your bed just in case a Learned Elder of Blocksteam might be hiding there!   Grin

Sidechains are up and running.  CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY has been merged.

GavinCoin's hopes of 20MB blocks are a thing of the past.  Its only success was shifting the Overton Window such that 8MB doesn't seem as crazy.  Every core dev and his cat are submitting contradictory/incompatible/confusing BIPs.

I told you GavinCoin would be r3kt like Stannis on the Blackwater, and that exactly what has happened.

Try not to be such a poor sport about it, old chap.  The already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.   Wink


Be happy fap.doc.  We've kept Bitcoin from being destroyed by the exponential growth attack from whoever is on the other end of the mit.gov pass-through and thus made you a a bundle of money down the road...if you actually even have any BTC left.

tvbcof
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June 27, 2015, 01:55:24 AM
 #27571


Nothing has been stated which refutes my logic. If the old version has the functionality that luigi1111, Odalv, and tcbcof have reaffirmed is their assumption, then the dire outcome I explained is the potential result. Perhaps there are other possible mitigations to such an attack.

Somebody needs to bring this to the attention of the Core devs. Appears on the surface of it, they may have a serious lapse in logic (but not having seen their rebuttal, I might be missing something).
...

When you get done ruminating on this for a while, play it out for us.  I'm not saying you don't have anything there, but nothing very practicable jumps out at me...unlike, say, IBLT which stuck in my craw right away.


TPTB_need_war
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June 27, 2015, 02:11:38 AM
 #27572

For those hoping for Blockstream's Confidential Transactions to scale or end up in Bitcoin core, I offer this.

majamalu
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June 27, 2015, 02:15:33 AM
 #27573

Interesting how this thread has evolved: Three guys shitting all over it and insulting cypherdoc (OP) relentlessly.

- One of them (iCEBREAKER) is a "monero supremacist" that for some reason is interested in Bitcoin.

- Then we have tvbcof, who is an avowed socialist.

- And the third one (TPTB_need_war) believes in astrology, says he has solved all the "problems of Bitcoin" (but has nothing to show) and has already promised to leave this thread ten times.

Judge for yourself.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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June 27, 2015, 02:19:00 AM
 #27574

- And the third one (TPTB_need_war) believes in astrology

And we have a guy who lies.

That is an inaccurate summary of what I wrote about the zodiac signs. Let's differentiate between a science that is tested and proven for all on earth, versus a personal ongoing test to refute one's own experience. If you can't fathom the distinction, then don't play.

- Then we have tvbcof, who is an avowed socialist.

Where? Seems like a hard money dude from what I've read.

iCEBREAKER
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June 27, 2015, 02:23:21 AM
 #27575

You see iCEBLow, there is nothing to fear:

https://www.coinprices.io/articles/the-hard-fork-no-need-to-worry-bitcoin-upgrades-harness-free-market-consensus

Now a prolonged 1MB spam attack...  

That poorly researched puff piece fails to mention MPEX's plan and stated intention to short GavinCoin until it cries blood and dies.





TL;DR 'get r3kt Gavin, nobody with a brain wants to ride on your stupid bloatscale fail train'

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
iCEBREAKER
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June 27, 2015, 02:25:50 AM
 #27576

Interesting how this thread has evolved: Three guys shitting all over it and insulting cypherdoc (OP) relentlessly.

- One of them (iCEBREAKER) is a "monero supremacist" that for some reason is interested in Bitcoin.

- Then we have tvbcof, who is an avowed socialist.

- And the third one (TPTB_need_war) believes in astrology, says he has solved all the "problems of Bitcoin" (but has nothing to show) and has already promised to leave this thread ten times.

Judge for yourself.

Quote
Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. -Eleanor Roosevelt

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
tvbcof
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June 27, 2015, 02:58:17 AM
 #27577

Interesting how this thread has evolved: Three guys shitting all over it and insulting cypherdoc (OP) relentlessly.
...
- Then we have tvbcof, who is an avowed socialist.
...

Was.  What's left over is a reasonable understanding of how these folks work and a life-long intolerance for idiotic aspects of Libertardian dogma which I've studied extensively in my previous life.

BTW, cypherdoc begs for it.  Classic masochistic tendencies.


Cconvert2G36
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June 27, 2015, 03:00:16 AM
 #27578

How many PH are run by MPEX and the pr gal again? I'm missing the cries bloods and dies connection.
luigi1111
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June 27, 2015, 03:01:20 AM
 #27579

Edit: meaning, I think, that "miners" (same as other full nodes) would accept/ignore codes they don't know IF they are included in a block, but would not accept them for inclusion into their own blocks.

+1 .. this is soft fork

That was my basic understanding, but I'm glad to get confirmation from ~odalv on this.

Nothing has been stated which refutes my logic. If the old version has the functionality that luigi1111, Odalv, and tcbcof have reaffirmed is their assumption, then the dire outcome I explained is the potential result. Perhaps there are other possible mitigations to such an attack.

Somebody needs to bring this to the attention of the Core devs. Appears on the surface of it, they may have a serious lapse in logic (but not having seen their rebuttal, I might be missing something).

I did not think it refuted your logic, beyond that you need at least one miner in your pocket (or your own miner, whatever) to get started.

On the surface it seems like you may have something, but I've not thought about it in depth (and indeed, am no expert).
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June 27, 2015, 03:02:56 AM
 #27580

How many PH are run by MPEX and the pr gal again? I'm missing the cries bloods and dies connection.

I'm assuming he means Mircea Popescu personally?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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