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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806366 times)
cypherdoc
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July 07, 2015, 10:29:14 PM
 #28421

great Reddit thread about how the network of full nodes is VERY capable of handling much more than the FUD 2-3TPS being pushed.  it looks like it can handle anywhere from 221-442TPS at peak.  no wonder my full nodes have been sitting around unstressed and underutilized:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cgyiv/new_transaction_record_442_txs_the_nodes_endured/
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cypherdoc
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July 07, 2015, 10:46:14 PM
 #28422

there's alot more going on than what meets the eye:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cgft7/largest_transaction_ever_mined_999657_kb_consumes/csvbtp4

take it from an eye doctor.
Odalv
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July 07, 2015, 10:49:25 PM
 #28423

On the topic of block verification times, people on Reddit are saying this block (filled with one huge TX) took up to 25 seconds to verify:
yes, they're actually quoting pieter and I from #bitcoin-dev (telling the miner in advance that the transaction he was creating would take a _LONG_ time to verify). They created a huge non-standard 1MB transaction and part of the verification time is quadratic (in the number of inputs).

It's actually possible to create a block that would take many minutes to verify, though not with standard transactions-- only something contrived.


and these have to be self mined, correct?

I'm not sure everybody can broadcast transaction.
kano
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July 07, 2015, 10:55:17 PM
 #28424

hey, since everybody and their mother now knows i'm an eye doc, how's your diabetic retinopathy?  i was dying to ask you that 3 yr ago back in my cgminer days when you first revealed that.  but that was before HF. Tongue   that's right up my alley you know.
Well, after lots of laser shots each visit (I'm pretty sure the total was 100 or more) I stopped going (about 2 years ago?)
Yeah I should get around to going back again when I can afford it Tongue (before I go blind)

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with Stratum, the best protocol to mine Bitcoins with ASIC hardware
tvbcof
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July 07, 2015, 11:07:37 PM
 #28425


hey, since everybody and their mother now knows i'm an eye doc, how's your diabetic retinopathy?  i was dying to ask you that 3 yr ago back in my cgminer days when you first revealed that.  but that was before HF. Tongue   that's right up my alley you know.

Well, after lots of laser shots each visit (I'm pretty sure the total was 100 or more) I stopped going (about 2 years ago?)
Yeah I should get around to going back again when I can afford it Tongue (before I go blind)

As best I can tell, about 50% of doctors are pure scammers and shills for the pharma (and related) medical/industrial complex.  Another 40% are clueless mainstreamers who simply regurgitate talking points from the pharma sponsored medical curriculum.  The other 10% are good scientists and honorable people who see through all the crap.

In the U.S., at least, I think that the whole field of medicine has moved to be mostly a system of wealth distribution and 'social justice.'  I swear to God I think that there are genuine efforts to make people sick as much as the other way around.

As far as I can see, someone who acts as their own attorney does indeed have fool for a client.  Not so with medicine.  In the few times when it has actually mattered I've gotten vastly better results by doing my own analysis and research.  There are a few exceptions but not all that many.


cypherdoc
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July 07, 2015, 11:09:27 PM
 #28426

On the topic of block verification times, people on Reddit are saying this block (filled with one huge TX) took up to 25 seconds to verify:
yes, they're actually quoting pieter and I from #bitcoin-dev (telling the miner in advance that the transaction he was creating would take a _LONG_ time to verify). They created a huge non-standard 1MB transaction and part of the verification time is quadratic (in the number of inputs).

It's actually possible to create a block that would take many minutes to verify, though not with standard transactions-- only something contrived.


and these have to be self mined, correct?

I'm not sure everybody can broadcast transaction.

that's the pt.  someone over on Reddit is screaming that this 1MB single tx block is affirmation that bigger blocks is a BAD idea and they're extrapolating to a  20MB tx block as an example.  

2 points.  first f2pool wasn't performing an attack with this tx; it was actually helping the network by reducing the UTXO set by consolidating all those small inputs.  second, only a miner can execute a non-std tx of this size.  there is a 100kB max tx size in the IsStandard patch rules (credit nullc) that all propagated tx must adhere to to be a "std tx".  otherwise full nodes won't propagate them.  in other words, a typical gvt or bank spammer can't shove out into the network a huge 20MB non std tx except if it is a miner who self constructs this tx and self mines it.
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July 07, 2015, 11:14:38 PM
 #28427

hey, since everybody and their mother now knows i'm an eye doc, how's your diabetic retinopathy?  i was dying to ask you that 3 yr ago back in my cgminer days when you first revealed that.  but that was before HF. Tongue   that's right up my alley you know.
Well, after lots of laser shots each visit (I'm pretty sure the total was 100 or more) I stopped going (about 2 years ago?)
Yeah I should get around to going back again when I can afford it Tongue (before I go blind)

clinically significant diabetic macular edema is not a good thing.  you need to tighten those blood sugar levels.  yes, laser and occasionally intravitreal injections of Avastin can be helpful.  good luck.
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July 07, 2015, 11:21:03 PM
 #28428

hey, since everybody and their mother now knows i'm an eye doc, how's your diabetic retinopathy?  i was dying to ask you that 3 yr ago back in my cgminer days when you first revealed that.  but that was before HF. Tongue   that's right up my alley you know.
Well, after lots of laser shots each visit (I'm pretty sure the total was 100 or more) I stopped going (about 2 years ago?)
Yeah I should get around to going back again when I can afford it Tongue (before I go blind)

clinically significant diabetic macular edema is not a good thing.  you need to tighten those blood sugar levels.  yes, laser and occasionally intravitreal injections of Avastin can be helpful.  good luck.

"Swear to God;  Hope to Die;  Stick a needle in my eye."


lunarboy
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July 07, 2015, 11:26:27 PM
 #28429

great Reddit thread about how the network of full nodes is VERY capable of handling much more than the FUD 2-3TPS being pushed.  it looks like it can handle anywhere from 221-442TPS at peak.  no wonder my full nodes have been sitting around unstressed and underutilized:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cgyiv/new_transaction_record_442_txs_the_nodes_endured/

Yeah these three buried posts cleared a few things up

Quote
Tardigrade1 8 points 2 hours ago*

Well, not entirely true. There is more to processing a transaction than propagating and storing it. But now that discussion has proven wrong and confirming that the only problem is the blocksize. There is no reason not to upgrade from a node/network perspective.

Before these spam attacks there was definitly discussion about if the nodes could handle the large volume of tx/s spamming them. This has now gone.

 

[–]awemany 11 points an hour ago*

This is a very good point. What you are basically saying is this, if I understand you correctly - please correct me if I am wrong:

The Bitcoin network got indeed 442tx/s for a short while, filling up mempools.

That means that nodes processed and validated 442tx/s for a while. They only didn't write them to the block chain, to disk as valid blocks, because enforced protocol rules right now prevent that.

The only reason the average actual rate didn't go up to 442tx/s is because the hard blocksize limit prevents blocks from being that large.

Note that without IBLT being implemented yet, you'd have to cut the effective transaction rate in half. Mined blocks would about contain the same number of transactions that get put into the network.

But this still means that the current, as-is Bitcoin network can handle 221 tx/s for a short period of time.

I think it is thus very safe to assume it can handle at least a tenth of that (to play it extra safe) continuously.

That would be 22.1tx/s. ~7MB blocks.

Lets please remove the damn limit now.

[–]Tardigrade1 12 points an hour ago

Yes precisely. This spam-attack has been far more interesting than people here realize. What we learnt was that a very high rate of transactions can still successfully propagate across the world, from node to node. Then they just wait to be included in the block.

cypherdoc
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July 08, 2015, 01:02:41 AM
 #28430

great Reddit thread about how the network of full nodes is VERY capable of handling much more than the FUD 2-3TPS being pushed.  it looks like it can handle anywhere from 221-442TPS at peak.  no wonder my full nodes have been sitting around unstressed and underutilized:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cgyiv/new_transaction_record_442_txs_the_nodes_endured/

Yeah these three buried posts cleared a few things up

Quote
Tardigrade1 8 points 2 hours ago*

Well, not entirely true. There is more to processing a transaction than propagating and storing it. But now that discussion has proven wrong and confirming that the only problem is the blocksize. There is no reason not to upgrade from a node/network perspective.

Before these spam attacks there was definitly discussion about if the nodes could handle the large volume of tx/s spamming them. This has now gone.

 

[–]awemany 11 points an hour ago*

This is a very good point. What you are basically saying is this, if I understand you correctly - please correct me if I am wrong:

The Bitcoin network got indeed 442tx/s for a short while, filling up mempools.

That means that nodes processed and validated 442tx/s for a while. They only didn't write them to the block chain, to disk as valid blocks, because enforced protocol rules right now prevent that.

The only reason the average actual rate didn't go up to 442tx/s is because the hard blocksize limit prevents blocks from being that large.

Note that without IBLT being implemented yet, you'd have to cut the effective transaction rate in half. Mined blocks would about contain the same number of transactions that get put into the network.

But this still means that the current, as-is Bitcoin network can handle 221 tx/s for a short period of time.

I think it is thus very safe to assume it can handle at least a tenth of that (to play it extra safe) continuously.

That would be 22.1tx/s. ~7MB blocks.

Lets please remove the damn limit now.

[–]Tardigrade1 12 points an hour ago

Yes precisely. This spam-attack has been far more interesting than people here realize. What we learnt was that a very high rate of transactions can still successfully propagate across the world, from node to node. Then they just wait to be included in the block.


M_O_A is making an ass of himself throughout that thread.
TPTB_need_war
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July 08, 2015, 01:03:36 AM
 #28431

hey, since everybody and their mother now knows i'm an eye doc, how's your diabetic retinopathy?  i was dying to ask you that 3 yr ago back in my cgminer days when you first revealed that.  but that was before HF. Tongue   that's right up my alley you know.
Well, after lots of laser shots each visit (I'm pretty sure the total was 100 or more) I stopped going (about 2 years ago?)
Yeah I should get around to going back again when I can afford it Tongue (before I go blind)

clinically significant diabetic macular edema is not a good thing.  you need to tighten those blood sugar levels.  yes, laser and occasionally intravitreal injections of Avastin can be helpful.  good luck.

kano, change your diet. Research the Paleo diet. Start with some Google searches:

"Why is wheat bad"

"Why are night shades bad"

"Why is corn bad"

"Why is pasteurized milk bad"

"Why are nuts bad"

Then start fermenting cabbage or some food and eating it daily, along with your Paleo diet, because good bacteria appears to be one of the keys.

Also drastically increase your exercise.

Also consider a fecal transplant.

I am only eating sweet "potato" alias camote for carbohydrates. I am eating mostly chicken soup with cabbage and small mackerel-like fish fried whole (head and tail, crunchy). I eat green leafy vegetables with every meal.

TPTB_need_war
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July 08, 2015, 01:09:17 AM
 #28432

great Reddit thread about how the network of full nodes is VERY capable of handling much more than the FUD 2-3TPS being pushed.  it looks like it can handle anywhere from 221-442TPS at peak.  no wonder my full nodes have been sitting around unstressed and underutilized:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cgyiv/new_transaction_record_442_txs_the_nodes_endured/

The capability to propagate and verify transactions to some radius of the network is not a proof that propagating larger blocks won't centralize. If you don't understand why, then you should not be commenting profusely on the block size issue.

Again I am not fighting you. Just saying.

TPTB_need_war
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July 08, 2015, 01:13:24 AM
 #28433

I suppose you're thinking of 21 Inc's plan for zombie miners?

Somewhat. I'm simply thinking that a large number of smaller miners (whether of the variety envisioned by 21 Inc or otherwise) has an advantage because none of them particularly care about variance or actually prefer it, both for lottery reasons and because in general increased variance is a good way to reduce effective transaction costs.

And you Sir are getting dangerously close to my design. But I did give you a strong hint when I said those who transact should be the miners. But you've got a long way to go from that observation to what I have designed. There are some clever twists still.

cypherdoc
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July 08, 2015, 01:16:47 AM
 #28434

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3chtdp/the_blocksize_cap_is_basically_worthless_for/
TPTB_need_war
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July 08, 2015, 01:26:08 AM
 #28435

While you are bumming around here, Greg, perhaps you could comment on the first thing which hit me when I looked into IBLT.  Nobody else has.  The thought hit my partially because of who seemed to be promoting it.

You can both just not waste your time, because I will eliminate mempools from PoW consensus.

BitcoinIsLiberty
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July 08, 2015, 01:34:57 AM
 #28436

Would it work to create a sidechain with a mix of crypto algorithms that bitcoin uses and offer faster/larger blocks blocks and pegged 1:1 with bitcoin. Then as people use the sidechain, hardware is created that verifies the bitcoin chain and mines on the sidechain?
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July 08, 2015, 01:37:08 AM
 #28437

china markets getting wrekt againn  Shocked

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Zangelbert Bingledack
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July 08, 2015, 01:40:15 AM
 #28438

hey, since everybody and their mother now knows i'm an eye doc, how's your diabetic retinopathy?  i was dying to ask you that 3 yr ago back in my cgminer days when you first revealed that.  but that was before HF. Tongue   that's right up my alley you know.
Well, after lots of laser shots each visit (I'm pretty sure the total was 100 or more) I stopped going (about 2 years ago?)
Yeah I should get around to going back again when I can afford it Tongue (before I go blind)

clinically significant diabetic macular edema is not a good thing.  you need to tighten those blood sugar levels.  yes, laser and occasionally intravitreal injections of Avastin can be helpful.  good luck.

kano, change your diet. Research the Paleo diet. Start with some Google searches:

"Why is wheat bad"

"Why are night shades bad"

"Why is corn bad"

"Why is pasteurized milk bad"

"Why are nuts bad"

Then start fermenting cabbage or some food and eating it daily, along with your Paleo diet, because good bacteria appears to be one of the keys.

Also drastically increase your exercise.

Also consider a fecal transplant.

I am only eating sweet "potato" alias camote for carbohydrates. I am eating mostly chicken soup with cabbage and small mackerel-like fish fried whole (head and tail, crunchy). I eat green leafy vegetables with every meal.

Glad to see this. Besides the other health benefits, the psychobiotic effects of changing diet and microbe populations can be dramatic. Another easy and cheap thing to ferment is cucumber (skinned and pureed, put in a jar with loose lid for 2-4 days with water on top, usually no salt needed). Used to be just about everything was fermented, many of our bodies' functions are outsourced to cooperative bacteria that we've co-evolved with.

/OT
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July 08, 2015, 01:46:10 AM
 #28439


I learned (listened to 15 mins so far and it is mostly boring and redundant for me):

1. There is no mining yet on the alpha.

2. Adam appears to have adopted my upthread suggestion (almost an admonishment of not emphasizing the point more in the white paper) at the 14:35 point in the audio, he emphasizes that the SPV peg should mostly be used by arbitrage players and normal folks will mostly use swaps.

cypherdoc
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July 08, 2015, 02:23:54 AM
 #28440

this is a very important insight to understand when viewing the costs of the current spamming attacks going on in the network right now:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3chtdp/the_blocksize_cap_is_basically_worthless_for/csvqatg?context=3
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