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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1954291 times)
iCEBREAKER
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July 08, 2015, 10:27:05 PM
 #28501

I want to say. (English is not my mother tongue)

The more adoption the more spammers.  ( if only 0.1% is malicious then it is 1,000,000 spammers for every 1,000,000,000 adopters )
The more full nodes the more upgrade of whole network will cost.

=> result: increasing block size can kill bitcoin

That makes sense.  English is my mother tongue, but I can't explain it any more clearly than this:

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The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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July 08, 2015, 11:26:59 PM
 #28502

OK.  Provide me with your estimates for the following (and explain how you arrived at your numbers) and I'll update my table using your numbers:
1.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assume the outputs are spent.
2.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assuming the outputs are unspent.
I may be missing the context as this thread is high volume and I've not read any of the backlog...

But for a full verifying node, the on-going cost cost of 1GB of additional transactions with all outputs spent is 0; all the cost related to that 1GB of data is related to the bandwidth to get it to you and the verification cost, and for short term storage until its burried, after that it need not be stored.
The cost for unspent is some non-zero number which depends on your estimation of storage costs.


Does CreateNewBlock currently take longer to execute if there are more TXs in a miner's mempool to pick from?  If so, this would add credence to Cypherdoc's hunch that miner's are producing more empty blocks when mempool swells.  
Yep, I already pointed that out to you specifically! It's superlinear in the mempool size (well, ignoring caching)  But thats unrelated to f2pool/antpool and the other SPV miners, as they're not ever calling createnewblock in that case, as they're mining without even validating.   One can mine on a validated chain with no transactions while waiting for createnewblock (which is what eligius does, for example).  I also pointed out that this is trivially optimizable, but no one has bothered previously.


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tvbcof
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July 08, 2015, 11:38:03 PM
 #28503

...
I may be missing the context as this thread is high volume and I've not read any of the backlog...

I wonder if I can get you to touch on my question here if you could:

  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11817437#msg11817437


iCEBREAKER
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July 09, 2015, 12:04:40 AM
 #28504

Does CreateNewBlock currently take longer to execute if there are more TXs in a miner's mempool to pick from?  If so, this would add credence to Cypherdoc's hunch that miner's are producing more empty blocks when mempool swells.  
Yep, I already pointed that out to you specifically! It's superlinear in the mempool size (well, ignoring caching)  But thats unrelated to f2pool/antpool and the other SPV miners, as they're not ever calling createnewblock in that case, as they're mining without even validating.   One can mine on a validated chain with no transactions while waiting for createnewblock (which is what eligius does, for example).  I also pointed out that this is trivially optimizable, but no one has bothered previously.

Wait, how is an empty block created without calling createnewblock?  Is there a createemptyblock thingy or what?

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
Peter R
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July 09, 2015, 12:19:04 AM
 #28505

OK.  Provide me with your estimates for the following (and explain how you arrived at your numbers) and I'll update my table using your numbers:
1.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assume the outputs are spent.
2.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assuming the outputs are unspent.
I may be missing the context as this thread is high volume and I've not read any of the backlog...

But for a full verifying node, the on-going cost cost of 1GB of additional transactions with all outputs spent is 0; all the cost related to that 1GB of data is related to the bandwidth to get it to you and the verification cost, and for short term storage until its burried, after that it need not be stored.
The cost for unspent is some non-zero number which depends on your estimation of storage costs.

This thread can be hard to follow if you're not following it all the time!  

The question was in reference to a debate I was having with Odalv about these "order of magnitude" estimates shown in this table.  I was suggesting that, under the conditions considered in the table, it is cheaper for miners to write the spam to the Blockchain and more costly for the spammer, than continually rejecting it:



Does CreateNewBlock currently take longer to execute if there are more TXs in a miner's mempool to pick from?  If so, this would add credence to Cypherdoc's hunch that miner's are producing more empty blocks when mempool swells.  
Yep, I already pointed that out to you specifically! It's superlinear in the mempool size (well, ignoring caching)  But thats unrelated to f2pool/antpool and the other SPV miners, as they're not ever calling createnewblock in that case, as they're mining without even validating.   One can mine on a validated chain with no transactions while waiting for createnewblock (which is what eligius does, for example).  

Sorry, yes I know you explained that.  The point I'm trying to make is that if CreateNewBlock is super-linear in mempool size, then it would not be surprising to see more empty blocks (what Cypher was calling "defensive blocks") when mempool swells (the miners are mining on an empty block for longer while waiting for CreateNewBlock to finish).  This was Cypher's point from the very beginning that many people, including myself, were suggesting was probably not the case!  

Furthermore, how can f2pool/antpool mine a non-empty block without calling createnewblock?

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Adrian-x
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July 09, 2015, 12:24:26 AM
 #28506

Spammer only spends money 1x during lifetime, but miner has to keep bigger disk-space forever (2 hard disc consume more electricity than single one)

OK.  Provide me with your estimates for the following (and explain how you arrived at your numbers) and I'll update my table using your numbers:

1.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assume the outputs are spent.
2.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assuming the outputs are unspent.



I'm sorry, I have no estimates. I know that bloat-chain is not solution  There are better solutions how to organize blockchain.

My full node just crashed ... all data are lost ... downloading 6 years 25 weeks.  ... hmm I hope that it is only me and there will remain some copy of blockchain. :-)  (not joking)

your data management systems need updating if you lost the data. Bitcoin is a $3B network and if you dont have an invested interest in keeping the blockchain to prove you own X coin or care enough to manage the responsibility you shouldn't be dictating how we should use it. not everyone who can't backup data or doesn't want to should be running a node. I have friends who dont trust digital photos because they trust paper copies more. I'm surprised to find you fit the profile.

I also think you're not weighting the cost and benefits correctly, the cost of 2 hard disc consuming more electricity than single one, is an inconsequential cost at the scale of executing this same attack with an 8MB block. (hell its inconsequential at the cost of the attack on the 1MB block.)

limiting block space is not going to save anyone except you a little bandwidth because you dont back up.


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solex
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July 09, 2015, 01:25:48 AM
 #28507

I just want to highlight the comments here from bitcoin-dev today, which seem to indicate that these spamming attacks would have been 5.5x more expensive if a dust threshold software change had not been made. Perhaps there are deeper insights someone else has on this...?

Quote
16:53   wangchun   why can those spam get confirmed. 0.00001 BTC vout below dust threshold right?
16:54   phantomcircuit   wangchun, iirc the dust threshold is 546 satoshis
16:54   wangchun   not 5460 satoshis? changed?
16:54   aschildbach   wangchun: Yes it was cut by 10 a few months ago.

cypherdoc
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July 09, 2015, 02:12:12 AM
 #28508

The point I'm trying to make is that if CreateNewBlock is super-linear in mempool size, then it would not be surprising to see more empty blocks (what Cypher was calling "defensive blocks") when mempool swells (the miners are mining on an empty block for longer while waiting for CreateNewBlock to finish).  This was Cypher's point from the very beginning that many people, including myself, were suggesting was probably not the case!  

that is exactly what i was saying w/o knowing anything about CNB.  it was just intuitive that constructing a new block would take longer for a large mempool so i deduced that a miner might decide "f*ck it" that he doesn't want to not only spend additional time validating a large incoming block but also not want to spend additional time creating a large new block so instead just automatically switch to 0 block mining upon arrival of a large block.  the thing none of us anticipated was that he would not validate that incoming large block at all and switch to SPV mining while >50% of the network would also be SPV mining (Discus, Antpool, BTCGuild) and trigger an invalid SPV longest chain.

that's some wild shit going on.

given this newly recognized scenario, i still conclude however that this is all a result of the block size limit being hit continuously by attacking spammers and secondarily intentionally causing a bloated mempool which then causes these unanticipated defensive strategies and more intentionally, user disruption.
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July 09, 2015, 02:55:42 AM
 #28509

I just want to highlight the comments here from bitcoin-dev today, which seem to indicate that these spamming attacks would have been 5.5x more expensive if a dust threshold software change had not been made. Perhaps there are deeper insights someone else has on this...?

Quote
16:53   wangchun   why can those spam get confirmed. 0.00001 BTC vout below dust threshold right?
16:54   phantomcircuit   wangchun, iirc the dust threshold is 546 satoshis
16:54   wangchun   not 5460 satoshis? changed?
16:54   aschildbach   wangchun: Yes it was cut by 10 a few months ago.

i don't think it really matters, does it?

since most of the mined blocks are filled with real demand trying to get into blocks with or without spamming, the only difference being that with spamming the real demand has to pay significantly higher fees to get in, the cost to fill up the rest of the block with spam is minimal as is the minimal cost to bloat the mempool to extraordinary levels (94K 0confs as i write).  i say minimal cost for the mempool b/c most of it gets turned over after 24h deletion allowing that spam to be recycled w/o having to pay.
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July 09, 2015, 03:59:27 AM
 #28510

all the yearly silver and mining stocks have that sick top left to bottom right chart configuration. this is a horrible leading indicator for both gold and stocks:

silver futures:



SLW:



PAAS:



silverbox's GPL:

TPTB_need_war
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July 09, 2015, 04:08:36 AM
 #28511

When miner's mempool exceeds block size by some backlog factor, they need to send out a message to the peers they are connected to saying "don't propagate transactions to me with smaller than X fee per kilobyte until further notice". This will mitigate the impact that spam-that-can-never-be-added-to-a-block can have on the network, but it won't entirely eliminate it, because as the mempool backlog reduces, the miner will need to back off the notice to some unknown lower fee threshold. The miner could guess but it will never be 100% accurate. So spam will get verified and rejected. But perhaps those estimates can be close enough that the losses the spammers takes in fees for transactions it sends that do get into a block will be greater than the gains it values from effective spamming (what ever those gains are  Huh). Appears to me the issue can be fixed.

Afaik, the reason incoming transactions are verified before it is known whether they will be in a new block, is because it is considered spam to propagate (send out again to another peer) invalid transactions that would be rejected and never appear in a block.

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July 09, 2015, 04:27:03 AM
 #28512

When miner's mempool exceeds block size by some backlog factor, they need to send out a message to the peers they are connected to saying "don't propagate transactions to me with smaller than X fee per kilobyte until further notice". This will mitigate the impact that spam-that-can-never-be-added-to-a-block can have on the network, but it won't entirely eliminate it, because as the mempool backlog reduces, the miner will need to back off the notice to some unknown lower fee threshold. The miner could guess but it will never be 100% accurate. So spam will get verified and rejected. But perhaps those estimates can be close enough that the losses the spammers takes in fees for transactions it sends that do get into a block will be greater than the gains it values from effective spamming (what ever those gains are  Huh). Appears to me the issue can be fixed.

Afaik, the reason incoming transactions are verified before it is known whether they will be in a new block, is because it is considered spam to propagate (send out again to another peer) invalid transactions that would be rejected and never appear in a block.

gmax already told us to use minrelaytxfee.
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July 09, 2015, 04:47:58 AM
 #28513

Spammer only spends money 1x during lifetime, but miner has to keep bigger disk-space forever (2 hard disc consume more electricity than single one)

OK.  Provide me with your estimates for the following (and explain how you arrived at your numbers) and I'll update my table using your numbers:

1.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assume the outputs are spent.
2.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assuming the outputs are unspent.


I'm sorry, I have no estimates. I know that bloat-chain is not solution  There are better solutions how to organize blockchain.

My full node just crashed ... all data are lost ... downloading 6 years 25 weeks.  ... hmm I hope that it is only me and there will remain some copy of blockchain. :-)  (not joking)

Don't worry.  According to Mike Hearn Bitcoin can survive just fine with 4 or 6 (forgot which) copies of the blockchain worldwide.


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July 09, 2015, 05:28:52 AM
 #28514

Yes, but the ongoing spam shows clearly that all full nodes are handling the traffic just fine. We were told that they would crash and burn from overloaded memory. Not true.

Wait, wasn't that exactly Hearn's main argument in his "the sky is falling if we don't increase the blocksize" blog post?  So why do you see the fact that it did not prove true so far as supporting your position of increasing the block size?

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July 09, 2015, 05:37:00 AM
 #28515

Yes, but the ongoing spam shows clearly that all full nodes are handling the traffic just fine. We were told that they would crash and burn from overloaded memory. Not true.

Wait, wasn't that exactly Hearn's main argument in his "the sky is falling if we don't increase the blocksize" blog post?  So why do you see the fact that it did not prove true so far as supporting your position of increasing the block size?

It provided evidence that the network can handle the increased load, and it confirmed that people do get frustrated by the confirmation delays. 

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sidhujag
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July 09, 2015, 07:43:52 AM
 #28516

Let's face it If we want adoption by a cb we need more tx/s however we can solve other probs first before raising limit to efficiently come to that conclusion.

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July 09, 2015, 09:36:30 AM
 #28517

I just want to highlight the comments here from bitcoin-dev today, which seem to indicate that these spamming attacks would have been 5.5x more expensive if a dust threshold software change had not been made. Perhaps there are deeper insights someone else has on this...?
Quote
16:53   wangchun   why can those spam get confirmed. 0.00001 BTC vout below dust threshold right?
16:54   phantomcircuit   wangchun, iirc the dust threshold is 546 satoshis
16:54   wangchun   not 5460 satoshis? changed?
16:54   aschildbach   wangchun: Yes it was cut by 10 a few months ago.
i don't think it really matters, does it?
since most of the mined blocks are filled with real demand trying to get into blocks with or without spamming,
Unfortunately, the majority in the blocks I checked earlier today have been the DOS attack-- e.g. transactions tracable from outputs of this transaction https://blockchain.info/tx/3bad15167c60de483cd32cb990d1e46f0a0d8ab380e3fc1cace01afc9c1bb5af  and a few others. ... though the attack style has been shifting to evade filtering by miners.

The change mentioned in the chat above is https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3305 (you might find the comments there interesting), it's one of Mikes couple contributions to Bitcoin Core.

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July 09, 2015, 10:43:47 AM
 #28518

Unfortunately, the majority in the blocks I checked earlier today have been the DOS attack-- e.g. transactions tracable from outputs of this transaction https://blockchain.info/tx/3bad15167c60de483cd32cb990d1e46f0a0d8ab380e3fc1cace01afc9c1bb5af  and a few others. ... though the attack style has been shifting to evade filtering by miners.

The change mentioned in the chat above is https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3305 (you might find the comments there interesting), it's one of Mikes couple contributions to Bitcoin Core.

So miners are filtering out the spam? What are they filtering for?
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July 09, 2015, 12:19:55 PM
 #28519

Jeff Garzik has just posted 2 pull requests for bitcoin core on github:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6405
Remove TX priority and free transaction area from mempool, block creator.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6402
Floating network relay fee increase, if memory pool grows too large.

the latter will introduce, if merged, "a relay fee that adjusts to floods
which cause the memory pool to grow too large".

It seems that core devs start becoming aware of the lack of
of economic incentives for services provided by full nodes.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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July 09, 2015, 12:21:03 PM
 #28520

Unfortunately, the majority in the blocks I checked earlier today have been the DOS attack-- e.g. transactions tracable from outputs of this transaction https://blockchain.info/tx/3bad15167c60de483cd32cb990d1e46f0a0d8ab380e3fc1cace01afc9c1bb5af  and a few others. ... though the attack style has been shifting to evade filtering by miners.

The change mentioned in the chat above is https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3305 (you might find the comments there interesting), it's one of Mikes couple contributions to Bitcoin Core.

Goddammit, Peter Todd hits the nail on the head! Kudos to him.
Yes, that 10x reduction looks to be unwise in hindsight. I recall the painful and protracted debate on bct just getting the dust threshold at 5460 sats in the first place.

So miners are filtering out the spam? What are they filtering for?

Hey, nice to see you in this thread.
It appeared that BitFury was aggressively filtering by fee when producing small 138KB blocks, however they have just mined a 998KB block (364549) which I think is their first near this size.

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