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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806236 times)
majamalu
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August 03, 2015, 07:36:54 AM
 #29721


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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August 03, 2015, 07:51:30 AM
 #29722


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

Yes, many Marxists complain about the "economic damage" done by capitalism and marginalism.  They have no power here!   Grin

"Competitive" is objectively defined, it just means tx with higher fees will tend to be processed with greater priority than tx with lower ones.  You know that's a fundamental function of Bitcoin protocol (and in the social contract), right?

The Free Shit Army will always demand moar free shit and always cry moar about the unfairness of open markets.  But this is La Serenissima - not fucking Detroit, Havana, Caracas, or Buenos Aires.   Cool

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
klee
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August 03, 2015, 07:52:44 AM
 #29723

Mark Karpeles retells the Mt. Gox story!
http://youtu.be/JCR3722ACTI?a 

BTC: 1K9atu5zgz7izCMAynk5adBJ8Qn2YgS6nT
Natalia_AnatolioPAMM
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August 03, 2015, 08:22:57 AM
 #29724

Mark Karpeles retells the Mt. Gox story!
http://youtu.be/JCR3722ACTI?a 

that's even funny! how does he do that

Earn money when BTC crashes - join BTC-E PAMM
Erdogan
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August 03, 2015, 10:49:44 AM
 #29725


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

Yes, many Marxists complain about the "economic damage" done by capitalism and marginalism.  They have no power here!   Grin

"Competitive" is objectively defined, it just means tx with higher fees will tend to be processed with greater priority than tx with lower ones.  You know that's a fundamental function of Bitcoin protocol (and in the social contract), right?

The Free Shit Army will always demand moar free shit and always cry moar about the unfairness of open markets.  But this is La Serenissima - not fucking Detroit, Havana, Caracas, or Buenos Aires.   Cool

The Paris taxi drivers applaud you.
Zarathustra
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August 03, 2015, 11:36:35 AM
 #29726

You know what really is "lame as hell?"  Argumentum ad populum.   Wink

It's a good thing the legal system does not decide cases by popular sentiment, or else you'd be out ~3000 LeBronCoins.   Cheesy

Funny how it only became a real issue when I started wanting bigger blocks.

Yes, your hypocrisy became an issue when you begain accepting argumentum ad populum in one instance while in another rejecting it.

If you want to decide block size by a vote in the Court Of Reddit, why not do the same for your controversial hoard of coins' fate?   Huh

Same in this thread. The 1MB'ers constitute a minority of professional loosers.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 02:04:59 PM
 #29727

8
You know what really is "lame as hell?"  Argumentum ad populum.   Wink

It's a good thing the legal system does not decide cases by popular sentiment, or else you'd be out ~3000 LeBronCoins.   Cheesy

Funny how it only became a real issue when I started wanting bigger blocks.

Yes, your hypocrisy became an issue when you begain accepting argumentum ad populum in one instance while in another rejecting it.

If you want to decide block size by a vote in the Court Of Reddit, why not do the same for your controversial hoard of coins' fate?   Huh

Same in this thread. The 1MB'ers constitute a minority of professional loosers.

Now, if I were as childish as the greedy Cripplecoiners, I'd jump up and down screaming, "see, see, Rekt!"
Adrian-x
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August 03, 2015, 03:14:36 PM
 #29728


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

Actually what is refer to as "Competitive fees" or "economic damage" is actually artificial economic manipulation, competitive fees that results from a block size limit (limited money velocity) are in origin as benign to the market as artificial interest rates set by central bankers.

This type of manipulation is consistent with central planning. Marxist central planing just uses a shorter rope.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 03:54:21 PM
 #29729


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

Actually what is refer to as "Competitive fees" or "economic damage" is actually artificial economic manipulation, competitive fees that results from a block size limit (limited money velocity) are in original as benign to the market as artificial interest rates set by central bankers.

This type of manipulation is consistent with central planning. Marxist central planing just uses a shorter rope.

and that is exactly what the Cripplecoiners are all about.  they've all but admitted that it is not a technical limitation that they are worried about but that it is about preventing the "FreeShitArmy" from using Bitcoin.  i'm amazed at the level of greed being displayed.

personally, i've always thought about Bitcoin fitting into the "Sharing Economy" like most other disruptive businesses that are disrupting multiple spaces across the internet.  apparently, this is the last thing these guys want to do; SHARE.

the sad thing about it is that many of them are millenials whom i've always viewed as wanting to help vs my many greedy fellow boomers.  turns out that many of them are just as greedy and unwilling to share.
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:00:11 PM
 #29730

$DJI continuing to catch down to the $DJT.  $DJT valiantly trying to lie to you about everything being OK:

Jdj1727
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August 03, 2015, 04:02:05 PM
 #29731

You guys/girls hold gold/silver as well as BTC?
Meuh6879
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August 03, 2015, 04:07:59 PM
 #29732

Mark Karpeles retells the Mt. Gox story!
http://youtu.be/JCR3722ACTI?a  

that's even funny! how does he do that


like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EscuOuXx3JM
alternate : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmHbYG7TGp4

French ... but not so much   ---===---   P2P ... it's people at the end   ---===---   P2Pool (10,9 GH/s).
Comment miner des bitcoins ? Un tutoriel est là : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1114415.0
Bitcoin change everything ... an explain of this fact : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joITmEr4SjY
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:09:02 PM
 #29733

remember this one?  how could you not?  i just showed this to you last Friday.  and many times before:

cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:09:38 PM
 #29734

You guys/girls hold gold/silver as well as BTC?

not me. 
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:39:18 PM
 #29735

here's the formalization of the stupidity behind TBI's inflation proposal last Friday:

https://medium.com/@twobitidiot/the-21mm-btc-soft-cap-71e14cd09946?source=tw-dd6a8357807c-1438618892173

but he does bring up a VERY good point that directly undermines the Cripplecoiner's case:

Now I know that centralization will decrease over time. Current holders will get diluted by a third as the remaining seven million bitcoins are mined. And as bitcoin appreciates in value, early investors will likely reduce their positions and lock in gains. So even those who could temporarily tank the market with large sell orders (intentionally or otherwise, read: Bearwhale) will probably be held at bay, and their power to truly manipulate market pricing is limited. (Wealth concentration isn’t really a risk to new long-term investors, but it does ensure that it will be take many, many years and probably several unmitigated wipeouts of derivatives markets before a healthy infrastructure can emerge.)

It seems a bit perverse that 100 private capitalists could reap enormous gains in the event that the currency become a developing economy reserve, but there’s nothing unique or inherently wrong about that dynamic. Without speculators, bitcoin won’t hit the critical market cap and liquidity it needs to emerge as a truly viable reserve. So again, the wealth concentration issue is just the weak argument for adding low inflation to bitcoin (to gradually dilute down the largest holders). It’s not an industry killer, but the optics probably suck enough to significantly constrain growth.


if we keep Cripplecoin as is and attempt to make it a "settlement layer" with only 100 or so private capitalists as owners, what is the likelihood that the other 6 billion users worldwide will come on board with this new system?  answer: they won't. it will be an even worse system of wealth concentration than we have today.  and with the attitudes displayed by the most vocal advocates of Cripplecoin advocates (both technical and non technical) in this thread and elsewhere, are these really the new economic masters you want to bow down to?  i say, "hell no".
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:48:37 PM
 #29736

this can't be good:

Jdj1727
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August 03, 2015, 04:50:40 PM
 #29737

this can't be good:



Does NOT look promising. BTC on the other hand, is starting to build some nice momentum.
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:52:02 PM
 #29738

exactly what inflation are you talking about?  oil, food, miners, commodities all going DOWN.  all i hear is that great sucking sound and sweet smell of Deflation:

cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:55:55 PM
 #29739

growth?  what f*cking growth?:





bad news for gold and silver.  the top 2 miners:



cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 05:06:27 PM
 #29740

here's the formalization of the stupidity behind TBI's inflation proposal last Friday:

https://medium.com/@twobitidiot/the-21mm-btc-soft-cap-71e14cd09946?source=tw-dd6a8357807c-1438618892173

but he does bring up a VERY good point that directly undermines the Cripplecoiner's case:

Now I know that centralization will decrease over time. Current holders will get diluted by a third as the remaining seven million bitcoins are mined. And as bitcoin appreciates in value, early investors will likely reduce their positions and lock in gains. So even those who could temporarily tank the market with large sell orders (intentionally or otherwise, read: Bearwhale) will probably be held at bay, and their power to truly manipulate market pricing is limited. (Wealth concentration isn’t really a risk to new long-term investors, but it does ensure that it will be take many, many years and probably several unmitigated wipeouts of derivatives markets before a healthy infrastructure can emerge.)

It seems a bit perverse that 100 private capitalists could reap enormous gains in the event that the currency become a developing economy reserve, but there’s nothing unique or inherently wrong about that dynamic. Without speculators, bitcoin won’t hit the critical market cap and liquidity it needs to emerge as a truly viable reserve. So again, the wealth concentration issue is just the weak argument for adding low inflation to bitcoin (to gradually dilute down the largest holders). It’s not an industry killer, but the optics probably suck enough to significantly constrain growth.


if we keep Cripplecoin as is and attempt to make it a "settlement layer" with only 100 or so private capitalists as owners, what is the likelihood that the other 6 billion users worldwide will come on board with this new system?  answer: they won't. it will be an even worse system of wealth concentration than we have today.  and with the attitudes displayed by the most vocal advocates of Cripplecoin advocates (both technical and non technical) in this thread and elsewhere, are these really the new economic masters you want to bow down to?  i say, "hell no".

another quote from the blog:

One of the primary untested assumptions confronting the industry is that this anticipated fee-based mining incentive can work at scale. At best, that will mean that we probably end up with a network that is more expensive than existing card networks and money transfer options. At worst, that will mean that the network is constantly threatened by double spending attacks, undermining confidence in the entire bitcoin technology stack that is being built out today.

bold part mine.  Bitcoin won't get more expensive, fee-wise, if we bring on many, many more tx's onto the MAINchain that will help spread the costs and provide enough profit for mining to expand and grow.  this is why i'm so against all these offchain solutions that have been presented like SC's and LN.  furthermore, this isn't novel thinking; it was ALWAYS in the original Satoshi vision that these Cripplecoiner's are so quick to dismiss and trash. 
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