Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX]

Let’s see ...

Gold is fungible in principle, as 1 oz. 24 K gold is indistinguishable from any other. That is an inherent physical property of the element, which facilitates its use as a currency.

Bank notes have no such property: they have serial numbers (to fight counterfeiting), and can otherwise be marked. In the 1749 Crawfurd v. The Royal Bank of Scotland case, it was ruled that despite lack of inherent fungibility, the law will not consider any genuine bank note to be different from another, lest their use as currency be hindered, and commerce along with it. In other words, government issued bills are fungible by decree.

Like gold, Bitcoin is fungible in principle, since, as rocks has argued, from the network’s perspective, 1 BTC = any other BTC. The coin is designed to have this property to facilitate its use as a currency.

However, some jurisdictions may decide to:

a) Impede BTC from gaining currency status. One way of achieving this, as Peter R notes, would be to place enforceable legal restrictions on fungibility.

b) Attack BTC fungibility, not necessarily to prevent it from becoming a currency, but to achieve other policy goals, such as combatting money laundering, illegal trade, or tax evasion.[1]

This leads to the question: could legal restrictions on BTC fungibility be technically enforced?

Bitcoin proponents argue that legal restrictions on BTC fungibility would probably always be defeatable or circumventable. On this view, legally restricting BTC fungibility would be like banning the melting of gold: unenforceable in the long run. This, in turn, makes it unlikely that such restrictions would be imposed in the first place.

Monero advocates disagree, because of bitcoin design features, and because legitimate BTC-accepting businesses operating in the relevant jurisdictions must comply with regulations.[2] In addition, they make the assumption, based on prudency, that legal restrictions on fungibility will inevitably be placed on cryptocurrency. Accordingly they have developped a coin for which, as far as they can see, it is technically impossible to enforce such restrictions.

In my eyes, this points to a significant divergence between the positions of BTC and XMR proponents. BTC proponents expect to legally use BTC as a fungible currency -- they may be foiled. XMR proponents anticipate going rogue -- they trust their tech., but cannot expect to use it for open commerce. BTC adopters want a currency suitable for the open market. XMR adopters are building a currency suitable for the black market.

There seems to be room for both.


[1] Note that attacking fungibility is not the only way to pursue such policy goals. The USG currently pursues them in the dollar economy by means such as asset forfeiture, or the ability to freeze bank accounts (these powers can be asserted previous to any court mandate, i.e., without demonstrated guilt), or by placing restrictions on the deposit or withdrawal of cash from banks, or on moving cash across borders. Some though not all of these means can be used in the BTC economy as well (Coinbase *will* freeze your account or seize your funds if so ordered).

[2] And indeed, according to one source, the BTC economy is in fact fragmented into KYC and non-KYC segments.
http://www.ofnumbers.com/2015/04/22/the-flow-of-funds-on-the-bitcoin-network-in-2015/

[Dotto]

make it happen

[TPTB_need_war]

Am debating what are the innate properties that constitute money. For the reasons stated in prior posts I do not consider privacy to be applicable to what makes good or bad money and do not see that as a factor towards driving adoption.

Privacy is not necessarily a property of money. Fungibility is a property of money though, and without strong legal guarantees of fungibility, it likely does require privacy because if you can trace "bad" or "good" coins then fungibility isn't there. Bitcoin currently doesn't have whitelisting/blacklisting, etc. (for the most part; there do seem to be some exceptions involving Coinbase, etc.) but as long as that concept is in play fungibility is a question.

Fungibility is not the only quality at risk. If the government can regulate money, they can extract all wealth to the misallocation and corruption of the Some Iron Laws of Political Economics. Early on this is tolerable, but in the end game scenario of repeating bouts of socialism where we are now, then a gestapo control over money will result in a severe economic collapse into a Dark Age.

Bitcoin proponents either fail to appreciate what stage of the cycle we are in, or they fully accept that they will go with the NWO fork of the coming bifurcation and take their chances on expropriation. Or the anonymity proponents are incorrect about the coming Economic Totalitarianism (and note there are sub-groups, e.g. some believe it is impossible technologically to make crypto that can't be effectively outlawed by government)

[Carlton Banks]

stop talking

correct. soon.

no, I meant "shut up" (politeness gets you nowhere these days)

Would you care to demonstrate any logic to justify your command?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=504237;sa=showPosts

[TPTB_need_war]

[2] And indeed, according to one source, the BTC economy is in fact fragmented into KYC and non-KYC segments.
http://www.ofnumbers.com/2015/04/22/the-flow-of-funds-on-the-bitcoin-network-in-2015/

Exactly. Bifurcation is underway. I don't believe it is possible to straddle the fence and that is essentially my complaint against Monero (while also praising their effort).

(MAD magazine) Bush Jr. said, "you are either with us, or against us".

Bitcoin folks appear to think that normal commerce will be non-anonymous. I disagree. I think the normal commerce will be anonymous. Because I think commerce is going to radically change in the Knowledge Age.

They are thinking in terms of the dying paradigm of Amazon.com, Barnes-and-Noble, Facebook, Peter Thiel, Winklevoss triplets, Paris Hilton, etc..

I am thinking along the general direction of Silk Road (but in a more general sense, not just drugs) and software as micropayment service.

Popular activities now amongst the youth in dating are for example swiping to indicate you like someone. That is a micropayment action, just need to monetize it!

What people do is what is economic. You guys are afaics thinking too much in terms of physical production and commerce. You are dinosaurs. The world has changed while you were not looking. The internet changed things in ways you haven't fully observed.

(I am thinking out of the box)

[TPTB_need_war]

stop talking

correct. soon.

no, I meant "shut up" (politeness gets you nowhere these days)

Would you care to demonstrate any logic to justify your command?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=504237;sa=showPosts

You made one smart post then you muck it up. Surely you have some psychological hangup, but i don't have time to figure out where your vestment lies.

[TPTB_need_war]

Am debating what are the innate properties that constitute money. For the reasons stated in prior posts I do not consider privacy to be applicable to what makes good or bad money and do not see that as a factor towards driving adoption.

Privacy is not necessarily a property of money. Fungibility is a property of money though, and without strong legal guarantees of fungibility, it likely does require privacy because if you can trace "bad" or "good" coins then fungibility isn't there. Bitcoin currently doesn't have whitelisting/blacklisting, etc. (for the most part; there do seem to be some exceptions involving Coinbase, etc.) but as long as that concept is in play fungibility is a question.

Fully agree. But as HeliKopterBen and dEBRUYNE pointed out a few posts ago, a fully private currency such as Monero could just as easily be outlawed in it's entirety. Which puts Monero in the same position as a Bitcoin where blacklist coins are outlawed.

The government can attack the fungibility of both by either outlawing the currency or outlawing blacklist transactions, so the fungibility of both rest to a certain extent on the ability of individuals to interact with the currency outside of the law. This is true for gold or any other money in existence.

For an example, the privacy of gold was broken when they outlawed direct possession and forced everyone into bank notes. Gold used to be able to be used privately (direct transfer) but now it wasn't (no direct transfer legally allowed). The innate properties of Gold and Money did not change, gold was still fungible. What changed was the legal framework around them that prevented that fungibility from being used to gain privacy. This leads me to believe again that privacy is NOT an innate property of money, but is determined by how it is used.

The key distinction of yore was you could escape to geographical frontiers (with your gold). Geography is no longer an option. Physical gold can't be moved without being likely intercepted.

We've entered a new era where the governments could have total control and eliminate all frontiers, if we don't build a technological solution.

[TPTB_need_war]

Am debating what are the innate properties that constitute money. For the reasons stated in prior posts I do not consider privacy to be applicable to what makes good or bad money and do not see that as a factor towards driving adoption.

Privacy is not necessarily a property of money. Fungibility is a property of money though, and without strong legal guarantees of fungibility, it likely does require privacy because if you can trace "bad" or "good" coins then fungibility isn't there. Bitcoin currently doesn't have whitelisting/blacklisting, etc. (for the most part; there do seem to be some exceptions involving Coinbase, etc.) but as long as that concept is in play fungibility is a question.

Fully agree. But as HeliKopterBen and dEBRUYNE pointed out a few posts ago, a fully private currency such as Monero could just as easily be outlawed in it's entirety. Which puts Monero in the same position as a Bitcoin where blacklist coins are outlawed.

Legally yes, but in terms of fungibility no. If I'm a fully compliant Bitcoin user I may -- purely as a practical matter -- have to check on coins I'm receiving to see if they are "bad", and because coins may be added to a blacklist (or removed from a whitelist) after I receive them, it means I'm left with performing my own KYC to convince myself that the counterparty is unlikely to be passing off "bad" coins.

I'm not doing this because the law requires it but because I'm worried about being left holding the bag with "bad" coins, even if the transaction itself is entirely legal. This is fundamentally incompatible with the concept of fungibility (again, which is distinct from legality).

The risk of this is fungibility concerns is far less to nonexistent with a private coin, where tagging coins as "good" or "bad" is technologically less feasible or impossible (Monero is not as private as say zerocash, so some issues remain there, but far less so than Bitcoin).

Kudos smooth. A public blockchain is a new era. Without fungibility, then it the culpability falls onto the user of the money to research the entire trail of the coin. This was never a widespread property of money in the past, even though serial numbers do exist on cash now they aren't a very viable method to blacklist because they are spent decentralized. Centralization of the mining is the key aspect the government needs so it can enforce regulation. Without enforcement, laws are impotent. The government doesn't like to enforce impotent laws that people can't possibly not ignore (e.g. anti-jaywalking law for rural roads or outlaw spending of cash via physical serial numbers), because their impotence emboldens the people towards fighting for freedom. Government exists because people are confident that government has to power to enforce its edicts.

Add: people would never slow down to MANUALLY check serial numbers on cash against a government black or white list. I have observed how difficult it is to get people in a social network format to do any simple action consistently. People are really hard-headed.

[TPTB_need_war]

That said, what is true of Coinbase isn't necessarily true of Bitcoin unless Coinbase and services like it become so pervasive that talking about Bitcoin outside of them is in practice meaningless.

I need to learn to use this politically astute method of making a point that would offend the reader if stated the more blunt way, "The behemoths are arguably taking over Bitcoin along with a global, societal slide into Economic Totalitarianism and if that comes true then what Coinbase is demonstrating now is only the tip of the iceberg of what is coming". Noted.

[stereotype]

stop talking

correct. soon.

no, I meant "shut up" (politeness gets you nowhere these days)

Would you care to demonstrate any logic to justify your command?

http://tinybuddha.com/quotes/tiny-wisdom-when-less-is-more/

[Carlton Banks]

stop talking

correct. soon.

no, I meant "shut up" (politeness gets you nowhere these days)

Would you care to demonstrate any logic to justify your command?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=504237;sa=showPosts

You made one smart post then you muck it up. Surely you have some psychological hangup, but i don't have time to figure out where your vestment lies.

It's only a meritocracy while your fellow chimps are not agitating to bite your face off. It's obvious to me what your schtick is. Please leave.

[rpietila]

EDIT: We have to use probably both Ninja tactics AND Spartan (heroic, self sacrificing groups of people)
EDIT 2: Anyone thinking just to get rich and 'escape' by himself is delusional IMHO. Also, if you think we are not at war... (last edit not directed to you TPTB)

+2.  (there were 2 points )

A highly public conscientious objector noncompliance group, who declare sovereignty from geographical countries (defacto bankster rule), or submit to their rule but only in the matters that are not against human rights as defined by the UN and interpreted by the group themselves, which include the right to treat anything to your physical, mental and spiritual being (freedom of food, drugs, information and consciousness) and refuse to be treated with stuff you don't appreciate, under no circumstances can morally force/permit you to give out access to your crypto, and require your consent to tax you (as there is no exception to voluntary dealings rule just on the grounds that someone needs your money and has the racket to take it).

The "creed" or "declaration of independence" is short and appealing to people who can't understand why a gang that calls itself "government" is empowered to do stuff, which is unlawful for its constituents (the people), who are even punished by the government for doing it! The leaders have full-color information pages in the professional website, they live their lives with drone videocameras recording all they do, the footage can be used against the infringers of their freedom and sovereignty. Surely some of them will be thrown to jail and to prison, but even killing them is a tough call as the whole struggle is marketed to the masses as a better reality TV.

So most of the freedom movement is underground, and the leading figures who show by example are in a real danger of getting a long prison sentence (but that will cause a public outcry if applied). If they are harassed too much, and if what we offer is better than the current system (the system is making this one easier by the visible degradation of their alternative   ), anything they do just heaps coal upon their head. If they "finish it off", they lose, as the masses will get a shock therapy and start to fear for their existence, quickly regenerating the movement. If they fight against it with soft means, it is a war of attrition, but we will spend the time getting the masses (de-)educated while their position gets more untenable by the year. If they let it be, it spreads like wildfire as nobody will pay taxes if they can avoid it just by joining a movement.

Don't get depressed, nor violent! In the Internet age, public, even marketed, civil disobedience is more fun, and more effective than ever!  

[TPTB_need_war]

stop talking

correct. soon.

no, I meant "shut up" (politeness gets you nowhere these days)

Would you care to demonstrate any logic to justify your command?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=504237;sa=showPosts

You made one smart post then you muck it up. Surely you have some psychological hangup, but i don't have time to figure out where your vestment lies.

It's only a meritocracy while your fellow chimps are not agitating to bite your face off. It's obvious to me what your schtick is. Please leave.

I don't know what your psychological problem is, but I am here to work on a serious solution to a very serious global problem. You may think I am up to some kind of gimick but you are sadly mistaken.

What I am doing now is a combination of:

1. Education (also for those who are lurking)
2. Demonstrating I have a grasp of concepts.

The only gimick you could rightfully claim is that I am making sure that the people who are with me can see clearly that I have a grasp of the issues and can retort or clarify. And correct, at some point one has to shut up if they expect to get any real work done.

It seems this discussion reached a crucial juncture wherein we are clarifying the fundamental differences that could apply to any crypto that is not Bitcoin. That is why I am participating.

I don't think you can claim that the posts I made today were vacuous.

[TPTB_need_war]

stop talking

correct. soon.

no, I meant "shut up" (politeness gets you nowhere these days)

Would you care to demonstrate any logic to justify your command?

http://tinybuddha.com/quotes/tiny-wisdom-when-less-is-more/

Fair point. I am in a rush and don't have time to organize and condense. I am just responding to what I see as I read through the posts since my absence.

Sorry life is not so well organized and structured as you absolutist engineers might wish it to be (hey i have German ancestry and I start off any coding project aiming for perfect, but then reality overtakes me and unlike an analist, I manage to ship the damn code). I have a zillion things to do and just get to pop in here and add my thoughts to the discussion.

Also you have to admit the main problem you have with me is you just don't like me. So it doesn't matter what I do, you will only dislike me less and not like me. My estimation of why people are offended by my posts is because I say things they disagree with  and say it with blunt clarity. I say what I think and don't try to obscure what I think with layers of political correctness, group sensitivity, or pretending I am more ambivalent than I am. I suppose anyone who is passionate is going to irk people are accustomed to viewing passionate people as drama queens or whatever.

I don't have time for all this psychological noise. I wish we could remain focused on the discussion about economics and crypto.

[klee]

EDIT: We have to use probably both Ninja tactics AND Spartan (heroic, self sacrificing groups of people)
EDIT 2: Anyone thinking just to get rich and 'escape' by himself is delusional IMHO. Also, if you think we are not at war... (last edit not directed to you TPTB)

+2.  (there were 2 points )

A highly public conscientious objector noncompliance group, who declare sovereignty from geographical countries (defacto bankster rule), or submit to their rule but only in the matters that are not against human rights as defined by the UN and interpreted by the group themselves, which include the right to treat anything to your physical, mental and spiritual being (freedom of food, drugs, information and consciousness) and refuse to be treated with stuff you don't appreciate, under no circumstances can morally force/permit you to give out access to your crypto, and require your consent to tax you (as there is no exception to voluntary dealings rule just on the grounds that someone needs your money and has the racket to take it).

The "creed" or "declaration of independence" is short and appealing to people who can't understand why a gang that calls itself "government" is empowered to do stuff, which is unlawful for its constituents (the people), who are even punished by the government for doing it! The leaders have full-color information pages in the professional website, they live their lives with drone videocameras recording all they do, the footage can be used against the infringers of their freedom and sovereignty. Surely some of them will be thrown to jail and to prison, but even killing them is a tough call as the whole struggle is marketed to the masses as a better reality TV.

So most of the freedom movement is underground, and the leading figures who show by example are in a real danger of getting a long prison sentence (but that will cause a public outcry if applied). If they are harassed too much, and if what we offer is better than the current system (the system is making this one easier by the visible degradation of their alternative   ), anything they do just heaps coal upon their head. If they "finish it off", they lose, as the masses will get a shock therapy and start to fear for their existence, quickly regenerating the movement. If they fight against it with soft means, it is a war of attrition, but we will spend the time getting the masses (de-)educated while their position gets more untenable by the year. If they let it be, it spreads like wildfire as nobody will pay taxes if they can avoid it just by joining a movement.

Don't get depressed, nor violent! In the Internet age, public, even marketed, civil disobedience is more fun, and more effective than ever!  

Somehow relevant:
https://youtu.be/hs9ZsKj-o1k?t=1260

[TPTB_need_war]

EDIT: We have to use probably both Ninja tactics AND Spartan (heroic, self sacrificing groups of people)
EDIT 2: Anyone thinking just to get rich and 'escape' by himself is delusional IMHO. Also, if you think we are not at war... (last edit not directed to you TPTB)

+2.  (there were 2 points )

A highly public conscientious objector noncompliance group, who declare sovereignty from geographical countries (defacto bankster rule), or submit to their rule but only in the matters that are not against human rights as defined by the UN and interpreted by the group themselves, which include the right to treat anything to your physical, mental and spiritual being (freedom of food, drugs, information and consciousness) and refuse to be treated with stuff you don't appreciate, under no circumstances can morally force/permit you to give out access to your crypto, and require your consent to tax you (as there is no exception to voluntary dealings rule just on the grounds that someone needs your money and has the racket to take it).

The "creed" or "declaration of independence" is short and appealing to people who can't understand why a gang that calls itself "government" is empowered to do stuff, which is unlawful for its constituents (the people), who are even punished by the government for doing it! The leaders have full-color information pages in the professional website, they live their lives with drone videocameras recording all they do, the footage can be used against the infringers of their freedom and sovereignty. Surely some of them will be thrown to jail and to prison, but even killing them is a tough call as the whole struggle is marketed to the masses as a better reality TV.

So most of the freedom movement is underground, and the leading figures who show by example are in a real danger of getting a long prison sentence (but that will cause a public outcry if applied). If they are harassed too much, and if what we offer is better than the current system (the system is making this one easier by the visible degradation of their alternative   ), anything they do just heaps coal upon their head. If they "finish it off", they lose, as the masses will get a shock therapy and start to fear for their existence, quickly regenerating the movement. If they fight against it with soft means, it is a war of attrition, but we will spend the time getting the masses (de-)educated while their position gets more untenable by the year. If they let it be, it spreads like wildfire as nobody will pay taxes if they can avoid it just by joining a movement.

Don't get depressed, nor violent! In the Internet age, public, even marketed, civil disobedience is more fun, and more effective than ever!  

Somehow relevant:
https://youtu.be/hs9ZsKj-o1k?t=1260

I don't have time to watch the video. Summary?

I disagree entirely with rpietila that punishing the leaders will result in a public outcry. We have so many examples were it has not (even the Edward Snowden support is turning towards supporting reform that is in the lap of the banksters). Rpietila is very astute on conceptual logic, but i think he is living in a fantasy world in terms of understanding what stage we are in the cycle with the masses (and this is messing up his predictions). The masses are blissfully ignoring everything, even Hillary Clinton's blatant in your face corruption. They only care about their pop-tarts and pop culture. And this is also why I think the Bitcoin folks are deluded (they think some positive change can come via evolution or popular revolution)

I assert you have no hope whatsoever of enacting any change via words or being a public figure. The banksters and the NWO are winning (into a Dark Age of eugenics and global Technocracy). We have not yet challenged it. Monero is the first (and last or will it morph?) salvo.

Any questions on why I would never release an altcoin with my name on it?

Add: I entirely agree no man will get rich and be an island. I have been preaching that in the Economic Totalitarianism thread.

Add#2: I entirely agree the internet should be able to give us the tools to proceed without fear and unabated. But we engineers have to do our job to make it so. It won't just wish itself into existence.

Add#3: Our global society is not at the stage the USA was when Thomas Paine wrote "Common Sense" and the popular opinion shifted from 30% to majority for revolt against Britain. This is a different era and stage in the 309 year cycle.

P.S. rpietila you may be approaching it from a moral or ethical standpoint and the purpose of our lives. I am approaching it less theologically and I assert more pragmatically.

[klee]

EDIT: We have to use probably both Ninja tactics AND Spartan (heroic, self sacrificing groups of people)
EDIT 2: Anyone thinking just to get rich and 'escape' by himself is delusional IMHO. Also, if you think we are not at war... (last edit not directed to you TPTB)

+2.  (there were 2 points )

A highly public conscientious objector noncompliance group, who declare sovereignty from geographical countries (defacto bankster rule), or submit to their rule but only in the matters that are not against human rights as defined by the UN and interpreted by the group themselves, which include the right to treat anything to your physical, mental and spiritual being (freedom of food, drugs, information and consciousness) and refuse to be treated with stuff you don't appreciate, under no circumstances can morally force/permit you to give out access to your crypto, and require your consent to tax you (as there is no exception to voluntary dealings rule just on the grounds that someone needs your money and has the racket to take it).

The "creed" or "declaration of independence" is short and appealing to people who can't understand why a gang that calls itself "government" is empowered to do stuff, which is unlawful for its constituents (the people), who are even punished by the government for doing it! The leaders have full-color information pages in the professional website, they live their lives with drone videocameras recording all they do, the footage can be used against the infringers of their freedom and sovereignty. Surely some of them will be thrown to jail and to prison, but even killing them is a tough call as the whole struggle is marketed to the masses as a better reality TV.

So most of the freedom movement is underground, and the leading figures who show by example are in a real danger of getting a long prison sentence (but that will cause a public outcry if applied). If they are harassed too much, and if what we offer is better than the current system (the system is making this one easier by the visible degradation of their alternative   ), anything they do just heaps coal upon their head. If they "finish it off", they lose, as the masses will get a shock therapy and start to fear for their existence, quickly regenerating the movement. If they fight against it with soft means, it is a war of attrition, but we will spend the time getting the masses (de-)educated while their position gets more untenable by the year. If they let it be, it spreads like wildfire as nobody will pay taxes if they can avoid it just by joining a movement.

Don't get depressed, nor violent! In the Internet age, public, even marketed, civil disobedience is more fun, and more effective than ever!  

Somehow relevant:
https://youtu.be/hs9ZsKj-o1k?t=1260

I don't have time to watch the video. Summary?

It is on old interview of Castoriadis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Castoriadis) where he discusses the issue of autonomy of the individual & the societies as it first manifested in ancient Greek cities and then later on in Western societies.

From the video description:
'Interview with Cornelius Castoriadis for the Greek television network ET1, for the show "Paraskinio," 1984 (with English-language subtitles). This documentary describes the life and the work of Cornelius Castoriadis and his turning from Marxism to the ideas of autonomy.
Central role in this film plays the concept of autonomy. They are being presented two historical moments of autonomous societies - the ancient Greek democracy and the medieval European communities. The democracy of ancient Athens formulates the ideas of the big philosopher and his definitions for direct democracy and autonomy.
What means "politics"? What means "revolution" nowadays? Which is the crisis of the western societies? To these questions Castoriadis search answers all his life. But in order to find such, he quits from the ready ideological answers and he decides not to follow dogmas. In the film it is presented his critic to capitalistic system as well as to the soviet regime and to Marxism. "Nowadays the dilemma is to be or a Marxist or a revolutionary" he claims. In this "no-way out" situation, he proposes to us the alternative of self-management and autonomy.

Cornelius Castoriadis was a Greek- French philosopher, economist and psychoanalyst. His interest in so many cognitive fields such as philosophy, politics, psychoanalysis, economy and biology makes him to be considered as one of the most important philosophers of the 20th century. The concept of autonomy, individual and social one, appears to be a key theme in his work, gaining him the title of "Philosopher of Autonomy". Etymologically, the term autonomy describes the situation in which one society creates itself its laws and institutions.
He lived most of his life in France, where together with personalities such as Lyotard, Guy Debord and Lefort, he co-founded the journal "Socialism or Barbarism", whose texts and ideas strongly influenced the events of May '68. His is author of "The Imaginary Institution of Society" - a work which provokes an explosion to our habits, an explosion of free thought. A work, which represents an intellectual May '68 and just like him, the work of Castoriadis cannot easily be forgotten.'

[rpietila]

I disagree entirely with rpietila that punishing the leaders will result in a public outcry.

Rpietila is very astute on conceptual logic, but i think he is living in a fantasy world in terms of understanding what stage we are in the cycle with the masses (and this is messing up his predictions).

P.S. rpietila you may be approaching it from a moral or ethical standpoint and the purpose of our lives. I am approaching it less theologically and I assert more pragmatically.

Yes, it is true that I am trying to live my life such that punishing me for doing it will result in an public outcry.

Also, if we switch off our humanity to continue our existence, that is actually the winning condition of the enemy! If we go public, go to prison, and to the firing squad, without forsaking our morality, then we win.

I don't know how you can call yourself either white american or native american, as in both cultures staying true to freedom is not to be compromized by such temporary nuisances as prison and death?

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Bank notes have no such property: they have serial numbers (to fight counterfeiting), and can otherwise be marked. In the 1749 Crawfurd v. The Royal Bank of Scotland case, it was ruled that despite lack of inherent fungibility, the law will not consider any genuine bank note to be different from another, lest their use as currency be hindered, and commerce along with it. In other words, government issued bills are fungible by decree.

Like gold, Bitcoin is fungible in principle, since, as rocks has argued, from the network’s perspective, 1 BTC = any other BTC. The coin is designed to have this property to facilitate its use as a currency.

No. Bitcoin suffers the same fungibility issues as the bank notes you described above. It can be marked and tracked. It cannot be melted down into "pure, unadulterated bitcoin." At best you can mix your coins around with a bunch of other marked and tracked coins. To make matters worse, Bitcoin doesn't even have the "fungibility decree" that comes with bank notes, so nobody is obligated to accept your tainted coins.

Bitcoin proponents argue that legal restrictions on BTC fungibility would probably always be defeatable or circumventable. On this view, legally restricting BTC fungibility would be like banning the melting of gold: unenforceable in the long run. This, in turn, makes it unlikely that such restrictions would be imposed in the first place.

I assume you're referring to mixing when you speak of circumventing restrictions. Why do you have to mix coins in the first place if they're so fungible?

XMR proponents anticipate going rogue -- they trust their tech., but cannot expect to use it for open commerce. BTC adopters want a currency suitable for the open market. XMR adopters are building a currency suitable for the black market.

Again, no. XMR adopters are building a currency that actually behaves like cash... you know, the type of money that's worked pretty well in "open commerce" for hundreds of years.

[TPTB_need_war]

as the coins spread out through the economy though it's extremely difficult to link illegal activity with those original coins.

Some research has shown that technologically it is not usually difficult to link activity on Bitcoin.

Perhaps you are making the argument that it won't be politically or operationally feasible to do so. I offer the exhibits of England's Admiralty law and the recent application and increase of Civil Asset Forfeiture in the USA (and essentially in Europe too when they seize your cash at border inspections). And the centralization of mining is the operational solution.