Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[dmitryshech]

Very impressive White Paper for inspiration:  https://qtum.org/whitepaper/

[1714163666]

1714163666

[1714163666]

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[ohad]

Very impressive White Paper for inspiration:  https://qtum.org/whitepaper/

but suits for blockchain people only. people from other areas will give up after peeking at the table of content.
the new tau is intended for everyone.
we will have an intelligent social network for not only serious stuff, but also for fun.
and for that i want the largest possible audience to actually read the paper, just because it's possible.
to be continued..

[ohad]

ok well let me continue a little bit:
what if facebook could understand what's written in every post?
what features could we do with that?
that sounds so big that we don't even know where to begin.
but no one yet knows how to do it.
that doesn't mean that we have to postpone this dream.
let's just use simple enough english (i.e. human readable representation of logic e.g. Attempto Controlled English) that the machine can understand.

that'd basically be the first alpha (with a lot more to say, here's a terribly initial design of the menus that i sketched in 5 mins just to make a point to someone http://tauchain.org/layout.html ), while from there to self-defining decentralized collaborative development platform, the way is short. at least from the average user's perspective.

[ohad]

the days of tau being understandable to experts only, are over. the new tau is for everyone.

(it'll have advanced aspects for advanced users, but it's like comparing facebook user to facebook app developer)

[dmitryshech]

ok well let me continue a little bit:
what if facebook could understand what's written in every post?
what features could we do with that?
that sounds so big that we don't even know where to begin.
but no one yet knows how to do it.
that doesn't mean that we have to postpone this dream.
let's just use simple enough english (i.e. human readable representation of logic like Attempto Controlled English) that the machine can understand.

that'd basically be the first alpha (with a lot more to say, here's a terribly initial design of the menus that i sketched in 5 mins just to make a point to someone http://tauchain.org/layout.html ), while from there to self-defining decentralized collaborative development platform, the way is short. at least from the average user's perspective.

Hmm.. That is huge!!! Than indeed (if I got it right), at least some significant part of the white paper will be focused more on that "simple enough, human readable english that the machine can understand", the structure and the use cases, while leaving in behind for more tech advanced user the actual process of how it actually happens.

My first thought is: all this should (MUST) be wrapped in VERY good UI/UX design, from the best of the best in the industry. The whole success of Apple vs Nokia was UI/UX.

[ohad]

ok well let me continue a little bit:
what if facebook could understand what's written in every post?
what features could we do with that?
that sounds so big that we don't even know where to begin.
but no one yet knows how to do it.
that doesn't mean that we have to postpone this dream.
let's just use simple enough english (i.e. human readable representation of logic like Attempto Controlled English) that the machine can understand.

that'd basically be the first alpha (with a lot more to say, here's a terribly initial design of the menus that i sketched in 5 mins just to make a point to someone http://tauchain.org/layout.html ), while from there to self-defining decentralized collaborative development platform, the way is short. at least from the average user's perspective.

Hmm.. That is huge!!! Than indeed (if I got it right), at least some significant part of the white paper will be focused more on that "simple enough, human readable english that the machine can understand", the structure and the use cases, while leaving in behind for more tech advanced user the actual process of how it actually happens.

My first thought is: all this should (MUST) be wrapped in VERY good UI/UX design, from the best of the best in the industry. The whole success of Apple vs Nokia was UI/UX.

the efforts of hiring UI/UX designer began a week ago.
indeed only one or two sections on the paper will be too techie to the average internet user.
but there is so much more to tell in simple words than what i hinted here. i really told nothing yet

[ohad]

The whole success of Apple vs Nokia was UI/UX.

but never forget: tau will be self defining and self amending. everything will be changeable over time. we will have what we'll call "teams" (like "groups" on facebook), and one team will be called "tau" or "root", and whenever there's a post under consensus there, the system will (almost) automatically reorganize itself to admit the new requirement.
this in full, only on the final tau, not on the alphas.
however, computer-assisted collaborative design of tau (or any other project who wants to use it) will begin from the first alpha.

(again i shortened something that deserves a lot more explanation)

[ICOcountdown.com]

Ohad and I were discussing the development strategy recently. I am currently working on a writeup so that is can be explained for the first Alpha release and what is going on with the development. Stay tuned. 

[SEOcrypto]

OHAD COMING IN HOT!!!!

Everyday I check the thread and I hope for messages like these!  We must be getting close to whitepaper time...

[dmitryshech]

The whole success of Apple vs Nokia was UI/UX.

but never forget: tau will be self defining and self amending. everything will be changeable over time. we will have what we'll call "teams" (like "groups" on facebook), and one team will be called "tau" or "root", and whenever there's a post under consensus there, the system will (almost) automatically reorganize itself to admit the new requirement.
this in full, only on the final tau, not on the alphas.
however, computer-assisted collaborative design of tau (or any other project who wants to use it) will begin from the first alpha.

(again i shortened something that deserves a lot more explanation)

The "tau" or "root" team will define the rules of changing the rules? Consensus means not contradicting with those rules? The very first of those rules will be defined from alpha?
Anyways.. I probably should hold my horses until the white paper will be released, you shortened in a much more human readable language and it's great that the white paper will be written in the same language

[ohad]

The "tau" or "root" team will define the rules of changing the rules?

will define the code of the platform itself.
changing the rules is a mechanism to occur in all teams over tau.

Consensus means not contradicting with those rules?

on tau's scope, by consensus i always mean that all (or majority, depends on the case) of relevant participants agree on something.

The very first of those rules will be defined from alpha?

on our new design, all rules can be changed whatsoever in case of consensus, no matter whether they contradict an old rule or not. this is a deeper level of self-amendment comparing to the initial design. you can even replace the whole tau's code, the logic, everything.
let me paste some explanations i gave to someone few days ago:

our thing is more generalized than nomic. on nomic, the minimal building block is a rule. a whole rule. but i came into a conclusion that "the process of forming a theory always inevitably contains many non-theories", or what i call "pre-theories", which are simply theories with holes, to be filled by humans. can be seen as "questions". so if nomic is list of rules only, we'll have two lists per game: of partial questions with partial answers. then we converge into a proper theory, without even need to vote (!!!), using a new magic formula of mine.. anyway it won't be nomic, but goes deeper to the fundamentals of the process of theory formation.

we will have many nomic-like games. and we will be able to practically begin tau's specific root "nomic" from scratch at any point of time, without having to necessarily keep the history relevant (though it need to be kept for technical reasons).
to explain how it's possible without paradoxes,
consider the following two kinds of games, between two players, that want to agree on a contract that they both sign on:
1. they can either offer a clause to add to the contract, in every turn, and the other player can agree or not. then the next player offer a clause and so on. but then, what if they agree on a clause that contradicts a clause they agreed on before? there are many possible things to do when contradiction encounters, but they all seem arbitrary on this setting. that's like nomic.
2. or, they can offer a whole contract drafts on every turn, rather rule by rule. if we replace the draft by a new draft, we don't care about contradictions vs the old one. from tau's root point of view, we can always put a whole new tau code from scratch, without the need to modify it rule by rule, and by that avoid contradiction. ofc there's much more to say here, and rewriting tau won't be that easy, im just saying that we can bypass contradictions and make it logically possible.
my magic formula is better than those two options though.

Anyways.. I probably should hold my horses until the white paper will be released

more questions and thoughts are more than welcome!

[Cibervision]

I dont know if ágoras will be mined  but , i think this is important to know

The Balance Attack Against Proof-Of-Work Blockchains: The R3 Testbed as an Example
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.09426.pdf

[ohad]

I dont know if ágoras will be mined  but , i think this is importante to know

The Balance Attack Against Proof-Of-Work Blockchains: The R3 Testbed as an Example
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.09426.pdf

great paper, and is not the only known vulnerability of blockchain (the others are mentioned there too).
that's why the app need to be verified completely, and not only certain parts of it. to explain what i mean here, see ethereum for example. what if they changed their smart contract language into a decidable one? they could then reason over the contract itself, but they won't be able to reason about the behavior of their network as a whole, because for that they'd need their client itself to be written in such a language as well.
tau will begin centralized (without a need for full blockchain), and with the machine's intelligence and collaboration tools, we will altogether try to create the state of the art of decentralized algorithms.

[maco144]

Would someone kindly type out step by step directions for transferring from bittrex to Omni for offline storage?

[ohad]

Would someone kindly type out step by step directions for transferring from bittrex to Omni for offline storage?

from bittrex to omni, it's exactly like the bitcoin way. any guide to do it the bitcoin way into a bitcoin address, is good.
afterwards to import the paper wallet into omni wallet in order to send the tokens, is another process. but may be done only when actually wanting to send the tokens, even after long time.

[Jiddu]

Would someone kindly type out step by step directions for transferring from bittrex to Omni for offline storage?

Are you familiar with Omni Core wallet already?
Download here: https://github.com/OmniLayer/omnicore/releases
I recommend to create a separate BTC address for every token.
So create one for Agoras, transfer a small amount of BTC (for fees, to be able to send tokens later), then send Agoras to the same address.
You'll soon see your Agoras balance inside the wallet.
Omni explorer: http://omnichest.info

[dmitryshech]

Would someone kindly type out step by step directions for transferring from bittrex to Omni for offline storage?

1. Go to omniwallet.org

2. Create wallet

3. Go to myaddresses -->  add address --> create new address

4. Sen your Agoras from bittrex address to address you just created.

5. You can use this explorer omnichest.info to track the transaction

We use regular bitcoin addresses to send and store Agoras. After you receive your tokens you will see Agoras on your Omni wallet under the bitcoin address you created. Theoretically you can send also bitcoins or any other coins that runs on Omni layer (like Synereo's AMP for example) to the same address. You will see all of them under same bitcoin address.

For offline storage Omni's FAQ and this https://github.com/OmniLayer/omniwallet/wiki/Armory-Offline-Addresses might help

[yuyu123]

The period of Agoras ICO is too long. Ohad should set a deadline for his fund-raising and destroy the unsold Agoras.

If you Agoras investors support that, pls urge Ohad to do it.

How many coins are to be sold?

How many coins have been sold?

When will the ICO end...  or is it a case of getting free money forever?   
As i see now developments done here, just a load of fluff.

then i read Ohad you are working on whitepaper, so ZERO developments are ongoing?

And in the 2+ years, what have been achieved?   Seems like very little,
but plenty of people have bought into this "project"

Is there a BITCOIN ADDRESS to show where all the payments went to?
Id really love to see it. But a fat chance of that, it looks like we are all getting played for suckers.

Also ICO COuntdown, i had trust in your reviews, your undying support for this coin is seriously going to REK
your reputation after your undying support for this project. 

Ask Ohad about the time when a recruiter from Google reviewed his source and asked him to work for them

Development takes time. If you can develop this sort of tech let me know, the BTC price has increased, I understand that you want liquidity and that you want to make funds. I get it, I truly do. This project is extremely large in scope and my reputation has always been backing serious developers and computational scientests. Pascal was also a one man team that I backed heavily because I always focus on innovation. Ohad is trying to get more people on board to speed up the process but if you want it excecuted correctly the old saying goes "if you want something done right do it yourself". I have even said to Ohad, I do not know who can even help with the development, let alone just normally understand the project. It is extremely high level.

Completely agree.  This project is the equivalent to 'shooting the moon.'  We're venturing into unknown territory.  A lot of smart people have told Ohad what he's trying to accomplish is impossible - and it very well might be.

While I can understand the frustration of early investors, this is what you signed up for.  Everything could change with the release of the whitepaper.  Or not

Not agree at all. This is not what I signed up for. I, invested in “zennet”. Then Ohad claimed that TAU-MLTT is a faster way to implement the features of zennet and this is why the zennet investors community supported the change. At least  TAU-MLTT was considered possible by HMC and the few other guys in TAU-MLTT team. I was also not signed up for the abandon of the little progress achieved in TAU-MLTT in 2015-2016, and for going to the unknown. Today, only Ohad understand the project, and it seems nothing happening and nothing progress. I was also never signed up for the change of the ICO terms defined in February 2015.

[infovortice2013]

the days of tau being understandable to experts only, are over. the new tau is for everyone.

(it'll have advanced aspects for advanced users, but it's like comparing facebook user to facebook app developer)

[shutaru1985]

sweet project. are you guys interested on portuguese translations of your ann, papers and whatnot?